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Farrell Fired + New Manager Search
bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Oct 11, 2017 12:25:42 GMT -5
but maybe the stat guys were screaming at him to take Brentz and play him over Young. If the front office wanted Brentz that badly he'd have been on the roster. You're giving Farrell a very outsized portion of the blame for that. ------ That Dombrowski quote is nuts. Can a Boston team ever part ways with someone without trying to light them on fire on the way out the door? We'll probably find out soon enough how DD feels about Brentz because he'll have to put him on the 40-man roster. I believe before the WS ends or else he's a FA.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 11, 2017 12:26:19 GMT -5
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Post by soxfanatic64 on Oct 11, 2017 12:27:21 GMT -5
There are a lot of good baseball coaches/managers for the SOX to choose from. Also remember that Detroit, Philly, and NYMets need managers and possibly the Yankees too. This is my list of possible Managers & Bench coaches for the 2018 RED SOX !!! Alex Cora, Brad Ausmus, Sandy Alomar, Demarlo Hale, Tim Wallac, Larry Bowa, Gabe Kapler, Eric Wedge, Gary DiSarcina, Jason Varikek
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 11, 2017 12:28:49 GMT -5
Take Larry Bowa off that list immediately. Edit that post and go wash your hands.
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sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
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Post by sdl on Oct 11, 2017 12:29:22 GMT -5
I live in St. Pete and it seems that every year during the Maddon tenure that Dave Martinez' name would always come up whenever there was a managerial vacancy. When Maddon bolted to go to the Cubs, press here was saying that Martinez would be handed the Rays reins but he followed Maddon to Wrigley. IIRC, didn't the Sox interview him after Francona was forced out?
Love to see 'Tek in the dugout, but one other name I'd love to see is Pete Mackanin. He did well with a garbage Phillie squad and he's a player's manager.
But PLEASE...keep Ruben Amaro Jr. as far away from the Sox dugout as possible!
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sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
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Post by sdl on Oct 11, 2017 12:33:11 GMT -5
Take Larry Bowa off that list immediately. Edit that post and go wash your hands. Bowa? No thank...too much of a hardass. Think Valentine 2.0. Same with Ryne Sandberg, who was not too well liked by his players.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 11, 2017 12:37:30 GMT -5
Player managers is how we end up with guys like Chris Young and Brock Holt starting playoff games. Screw that.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Oct 11, 2017 12:38:07 GMT -5
The Red Sox couldn't bring Farrell back, he would've lacked the job security this team needs from its manager in order to properly utilize the roster for next season.
The biggest challenge they face is devising a plan to keep Sale and Pomeranz effective into October, as well as keeping Price (and hopefully Rodriguez) healthy throughout the season. If the plan is to give these guys all the starts they can handle, and to let each individual outing's performance dictate how long they'll stay in the game, I see no reason to expect significantly better versions of Sale and Pomeranz entering next postseason. Yes, you have to get there first, but this team won't win in the postseason if they can't the normal versions of their best pitchers. They have a track record of hitting a wall late in the season.
I'm not sure what plan is best for the rotation, but I'd like to see them try something different. I'd be ok with trying a six man rotation the first couple months of the season, or planning skipped starts every so often, or planning for certain starts to be less than 5 innings or under a certain amount of pitches. The point is I'd be open to trying anything new, because I don't think the most effective way to utilize the rotation next season is to treat them all like workhorses throughout the season and give them everything they can handle until they simply wear down and decline in command or stuff/velocity.
I'd also like to see the new manager use Kimbrel in high leverage non-save situations from time to time, not just because it'll be the right baseball decision, but to give him more experience in situations that might not feel comfortable to him at this time. Inevitably he'll have to enter a big game with runners on, or a tied game, and I don't think they should wait until it's a game that matters the most. This desire isn't just because he blew the last game, it seems like situations outside of the traditional save have given him more trouble than they should considering how great the guy is.
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Post by gcwilliams on Oct 11, 2017 12:38:43 GMT -5
I'll go against the grain here and could probably talk myself into Ausmus. He improved on the job - unfortunately, it was as the talent on the field withered away. The Tigers hiring him with his lack of experience in the first place was a huge mistake, but he's a smart guy and a hard worker. I also think a lot of the problem people have with Ausmus comes from him getting lumped in with Matheny as former defense-first catchers hired around the same time by their former teams to replace HOF managers while that team was still a championship contender. Around 2013 they were like the Brian Rose and Carl Pavano of young managers. Personality-wise, Ausmus is nothing like Matheny who has a much more prickly, old-school type of approach. Well, if he has the mental plasticity to learn from his Detroit experience and adapt (as a poster above noted) to the game from year to year, I'd be ok with Ausmus as well. This description, btw, is what I thought Farrell was, but the complaints about his tenure here were pretty much the same as the complaints Toronto fans had. Let's not forget, Tito managed 4 terrible seasons in Philadelphia. Granted, those were really terrible teams. But after taking his first team to the ALCS, Ausmus had to deal with a deteriorating Tiger ball club punctuated by this year's woeful excuse for a Major League team. When they fired Grady Little, I wanted Joe Maddon and was disappointed when they went with Tito. I'm happy to admit I was wrong on that count. When Valentine was fired, I wanted Ausmus and frankly, did not understand the front office's infatuation with John Farrell. I think nowadays you need someone who's willing to balance what statistical data tells you with a reasoned sense of what your experience tells you is the right move. I'd be perfectly happy with Ausmus.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 11, 2017 12:40:22 GMT -5
Player managers is how we end up with guys like Chris Young and Brock Holt starting playoff games. Screw that. Who, among the remaining playoff managers, isn't a "player manager?" Girardi, maybe? Everyone else absolutely has that reputation. It's such a catch-all meaningless term that's become shorthand for "manager who doesn't make a public show of being a loudmouth hardass."
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 11, 2017 12:45:10 GMT -5
RE: Kapler, I'm not sure he'd want to move to the east coast to manage right now. He has two high school sons and my feel from when he was actively blogging was that he would prefer not to move until they graduate. Note that when he finished second to Roberts for the Dodgers' managerial gig, he declined a spot on the coaching staff because he felt his best chance to make an impact on the club was to stay on as their head player dev guy.
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Post by dirtdog on Oct 11, 2017 12:46:16 GMT -5
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,933
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 11, 2017 12:57:35 GMT -5
Farrell's major failing was that he was far too much a "player's manager." No, the players do not always know what's best for them. Letting Bogaerts and Moreland play through their injuries was a catastrophically bad idea.
Letting Chris Sale pitch as much as he wanted was even worse. But what we don't know is whether the FO had advice in the opposite direction that JF overrode.
Everyone acknowledged that the Sale trade was likely to be a big loss in the long run, but it was entirely defensible as an effort to try and grab a championship quick with the young core before it got too expensive. They were already the favorite for the division; the primary reason for the trade was to make them an elite post-season club.
I find it hard to imagine that they made that trade without investigating Sale's consistent pattern of decline across the season. I mean, if they made that trade thinking that Sale in September and October was going to be the Sale of his overall season numbers, without making any changes to his usage or routine, that's stupid beyond belief. And I don't think they're stupid at all.
It's possible that they implemented a plan that involved more strengthening and conditioning but no decrease in his workload, and the plan failed. But it's also possible that JF had a hand in modifying the original plan so that there was no decrease in workload, because Sale really wanted to pitch. If JF was in the loop on such a decision, then his quick axe makes much more sense.
JF went from being terrible with his bullpen matchups last year to very good this year, so I think he'll find another job. It's possible that, had he stayed here, he would have learned a similar lesson about not letting the players dictate how much they play. Change a couple of bogus strike calls to balls in game 4 and move Mookie's liner a foot to either side, and he's probably here next year. But I don't mourn this move. They can find someone better.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Oct 11, 2017 12:57:42 GMT -5
Ausmus NFW!
Leyland NO!!!
Varitek NO
Disarcina NFW!
Amaro Hell no!!!
Giarardi NFW!
Chili Davis NO!
Cora In conversation (although kinda leery if rumors are true that he recommended Castillo signing)
Joe McEwing In conversation
Kapler NO!
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 11, 2017 13:00:02 GMT -5
Player managers is how we end up with guys like Chris Young and Brock Holt starting playoff games. Screw that. Who, among the remaining playoff managers, isn't a "player manager?" Girardi, maybe? Everyone else is absolutely has that reputation. It's such a catch-all meaningless term that's become shorthand for "manager who doesn't make a public show of being a loudmouth hardass." Maddon's reputation is not one who sticks with veterans and everyone else be damned. He's a good manager and popular with players but that doesn't automatically make him a players manager in the sense I was using.
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Post by jbuttah on Oct 11, 2017 13:01:48 GMT -5
The Red Sox couldn't bring Farrell back, he would've lacked the job security this team needs from its manager in order to properly utilize the roster for next season. The biggest challenge they face is devising a plan to keep Sale and Pomeranz effective into October, as well as keeping Price (and hopefully Rodriguez) healthy throughout the season. If the plan is to give these guys all the starts they can handle, and to let each individual outing's performance dictate how long they'll stay in the game, I see no reason to expect significantly better versions of Sale and Pomeranz entering next postseason. Yes, you have to get there first, but this team won't win in the postseason if they can't the normal versions of their best pitchers. They have a track record of hitting a wall late in the season. I'm not sure what plan is best for the rotation, but I'd like to see them try something different. I'd be ok with trying a six man rotation the first couple months of the season, or planning skipped starts every so often, or planning for certain starts to be less than 5 innings or under a certain amount of pitches. The point is I'd be open to trying anything new, because I don't think the most effective way to utilize the rotation next season is to treat them all like workhorses throughout the season and give them everything they can handle until they simply wear down and decline in command or stuff/velocity. I'd also like to see the new manager use Kimbrel in high leverage non-save situations from time to time, not just because it'll be the right baseball decision, but to give him more experience in situations that might not feel comfortable to him at this time. Inevitably he'll have to enter a big game with runners on, or a tied game, and I don't think they should wait until it's a game that matters the most. This desire isn't just because he blew the last game, it seems like situations outside of the traditional save have given him more trouble than they should considering how great the guy is. What could've been. Think many here would've loved to have Friedman as GM. fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-the-dodgers-are-using-baseballs-new-dl-rules-to-get-an-edge/
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Post by bluechip on Oct 11, 2017 13:02:30 GMT -5
No playoff success and a terrible final four years in Minnesota (granted those weren't great teams).
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Post by dirtdog on Oct 11, 2017 13:02:35 GMT -5
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,933
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 11, 2017 13:05:53 GMT -5
The Red Sox couldn't bring Farrell back, he would've lacked the job security this team needs from its manager in order to properly utilize the roster for next season. The biggest challenge they face is devising a plan to keep Sale and Pomeranz effective into October, as well as keeping Price (and hopefully Rodriguez) healthy throughout the season. If the plan is to give these guys all the starts they can handle, and to let each individual outing's performance dictate how long they'll stay in the game, I see no reason to expect significantly better versions of Sale and Pomeranz entering next postseason. Yes, you have to get there first, but this team won't win in the postseason if they can't the normal versions of their best pitchers. They have a track record of hitting a wall late in the season. I'm not sure what plan is best for the rotation, but I'd like to see them try something different. I'd be ok with trying a six man rotation the first couple months of the season, or planning skipped starts every so often, or planning for certain starts to be less than 5 innings or under a certain amount of pitches. The point is I'd be open to trying anything new, because I don't think the most effective way to utilize the rotation next season is to treat them all like workhorses throughout the season and give them everything they can handle until they simply wear down and decline in command or stuff/velocity. This ^. They have to use a 5 1/2 man rotation of some sort. There is so much data on Sale -- to start with, all the pitch/fx data for every start in his career, with slider break and so on. They presumably have biomechanical data, like shoulder strength measurements. If they were smart, they had Sale keep a sleep diary complete with caffeine usage (and no, I don't think they were smart), because the tired Sale is never the pitcher of his overall, mediocre ERA -- he's either himself or has nothing, and whether Good Sale or Bad Sale shows up is at present a mystery. They should be able to solve this problem.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,933
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 11, 2017 13:23:05 GMT -5
No playoff success and a terrible final four years in Minnesota (granted those weren't great teams). All I know of Gardenhire is watching (and scoring every pitch of) almost all of the Sox /Twins games 2003-2011 (and some of the later ones), plus their postseason games in that era. I thought he was terrible, clueless, old school. In the postseason I often find myself rooting for whichever team is better run and managed, and I remember having trouble rooting for the Twins against the Yankees. (OK, maybe that's not quite true.) I'm going to guess this just stupid baseball writers being extra stupid. JF is 1-1 in his last 2 postseason games. Gardenhire has a 12-game postseason losing streak (and was 6-9 before that).
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Post by kevfc89 on Oct 11, 2017 13:24:35 GMT -5
I really hope we don't sign an old-school dinosaur like Gardenhire. Why would we do that when we could get someone analytically-minded like Kapler, or at least someone young who could probably be molded in that direction like Cora. I don't want any of these Mackanin, Gardenhire, Wedge etc. If we get one of those, I'd rather we had just kept Farrell (who I didn't like but is probably better than those choices). It's 2017, time to pick a manager for the times.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,982
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Post by jimoh on Oct 11, 2017 13:26:18 GMT -5
[...] I'm not sure what plan is best for the rotation, but I'd like to see them try something different. I'd be ok with trying a six man rotation the first couple months of the season, or planning skipped starts every so often, or planning for certain starts to be less than 5 innings or under a certain amount of pitches. The point is I'd be open to trying anything new, because I don't think the most effective way to utilize the rotation next season is to treat them all like workhorses throughout the season and give them everything they can handle until they simply wear down and decline in command or stuff/velocity. This ^. They have to use a 5 1/2 man rotation of some sort. [...] They "have to" is so much sillier as an argument than "I'd like to see them try...."
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Post by bluechip on Oct 11, 2017 13:30:25 GMT -5
I am fine giving a manager his second shot, especially if his previous stop was a talentless situation. Rookie managers seem like a good idea, mostly because there is no bad data on them. Non of the experienced veteran managers (guys with over five years of prior managerial experience) excite me.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 11, 2017 13:36:14 GMT -5
Hiring Ron Gardenhire would NOT help with the ongoing Yankee inferiority complex.
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Post by soxfando on Oct 11, 2017 13:40:08 GMT -5
wow
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