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Farrell Fired + New Manager Search
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Post by GyIantosca on Oct 11, 2017 22:44:10 GMT -5
Tomase is garbage. My choice is Cora with a veteran bench coach to pick his brain. Unless there is a surprise firing.
On a side note Petey went down a lot in my book. Price takes the blame with media but people should look at Petey since the Baltimore series. I can not stomach Hanley getting his fifth year vesting option with 400 at bats. Sorry all set with this fraud. If next year was the last fine.
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Post by libertine on Oct 11, 2017 23:26:19 GMT -5
On one level I think Farrell's sacking is harsh. He won 3 AL East pennants and a WS in his time here. Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of him as a manager and at this point I am glad the move was made, but a case could be made for it being a bit unfair to Farrell. Plus for DD to cite the team's middle of the line-up woes as part of the rationale for this move made me chuckle a bit. If anything DD is responsible for that not Farrell.
All that being said I do feel it was time for a change. There was something about this club that did not seem right all season. Betts, Boegarts and Bradley all took steps back. Hanley is on the downside of his career. Pedey's knee, Price's elbow and having players trying to play through injuries all conspired to ensure this team did not reach its potential. In addition to not replacing Papi's bat. And from the sounds of it the clubhouse was not a happy place to be...and for the cherry on top Price's meltdowns about the press and Eck had to be a distraction.
On the upside were Beni and Devers. On any other non-Aaron Judge season Benintendi would have won Rookie of the Year. And what Devers did after his call up has me very excited for 2018 and beyond. We have a great core of young core talent for whomever the next skipper is.
In closing, thanks for everything John and good luck to you in the future...
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Oct 11, 2017 23:35:27 GMT -5
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Oct 12, 2017 0:01:00 GMT -5
Here's my opinion which is pretty much worthless.
DD: Plus GM.
Farrell: I have no issues with virtually everything about Farrell. He's knowledgeable and a class personality. On the other hand I think he plays far far too many hunches in critical situations and over the course of his career as a manager has under-performed preseason win projections so, I was on the let him go bandwagon for quite a while now. I also think he should have given more time off to partially injured players. It wouldn't surprise me to see him end up as a GM someplace.
Willis: I have yet to see any pitcher credit Willis with fixing a problem they had. A lot of that is behind the scenes so, a difficult call. When Dustin Pedroia is pointing out that Price was holding his glove higher than before, there has to be questions. Whe Porcello can't find his sinker for an entire year, there has to be questions. To his credit, he's the only pitching coach in history with 3 different Cy winners.
Bannister: The exact opposite of Willis. The Sox would be foolish to let him go. Hopefully Porcello will be his primary project this off season.
Davis: I've seen a lot of cases where Chilli has worked with the batters, hopefully he stays. Hanley's shoulder, Pedroia's knee, Moreland's toe, Xander's hands and Mookie's wrist can't be blamed on him. On the other hand, JBJ's inconsistency is a bit glaring.
Butter: God but not so sure of his send decisions as 3B coach and also not so sure how those decisions are affected by team philosophy.
Amaro: As long as we don't make him our GM, I'm happy. He is an experienced knowledgeable baseball man who's pretty much done it all. It wouldn't surprise me if he's also DD's ears.
DiSarcina: He'd be my first choice as next manager. If he isn't, I hope the new manager keeps him or Febles as bench coach.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 12, 2017 0:22:11 GMT -5
I was kind of on the fence regarding Farrell, not because I thought he was a fantastic manager, but rather because there is always a "If we fire this bozo manager, our team will go 162-0 and sweep thru the post-season" mentality, and the truth of the matter is that whoever gets hired will be considered a genius until Opening Day when he botches a decision or something happens and before long it becomes, "Let's sack this bozo. How in the world did he ever get hired in the first place!"
It's hard to know who's really better than who. All we can do is go by images of what we think we know or track records. It's not like when Terry Francona was hired there were proclamations of "The Red Sox have hired the best manager they've ever had in their history!". It was more like, "Yeah! Grady Little is gone. A corpse would be an improvement. Even this Francoma guy who finished last all the time with the Phillies has to be better. He couldn't be any worse!"
From everything thing I've read, my top choice would be Gabe Kapler, but as Chris Hatfield pointed out, he probably wouldn't want to come east or give up his current position.
Alex Cora is interesting, but I have no idea if he'd make a good manager or not.
It sounds like the reason Dombrowski fired Farrell was because the two were constantly butting heads, and there was no way DD was going to extend Farrell, and it made no sense having a lame duck manager, so the deed was done. Doesn't sound like Dombrowski had to deliberate about it or was really torn up by it.
My guess is that Brad Ausmus will become the next manager of the Red Sox. Ausmus is a guy Dombrowski hired (unlike Farrell), and I would think Dombrowski would want his guy. Ausmus now has experience and his losing the last couple of years can't really be held against him - DD had stripped the farm system of that team so there wasn't much left once DD was canned. So there's no way DD will hold that against Ausmus.
I read the fangraphs article. I totally get what he was saying in regards to closer usage and have had the same argument. While you might disagree I don't think he said anything that was too outrageous.
I don't think Tek will be the manager. Don't know if he has the personality for it. They said they want somebody with dugout experience, and technically Tek would qualify - they've had him in the dugout quite often viewing the game from the dugout.
That said, I think Dombrowski will want to go with his guy, and I think Ausmus is his guy, and will be his guy.
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Post by marrcus on Oct 12, 2017 2:49:36 GMT -5
Attendance and ratings are down. To the extent that ownership blames Farrell for this, resulting from the RS not being perceived as a "likable"team, I think sealed his fate.
Had DD told Farrell he was all set for 2018 the press would have immediately gone into extension mode. It would have been particularly tough for Henry+ to come with another year plus an option.
There are some heath issues to be determined (who get surgery soon?) and I've heard something about buying out Hanley for 2018 so his 2019 option can't apply?
This looks like an exceptionally busy OS for DD and I noted he was careful to state the RS wouldn't be contacting any team for permission to speak. The manager involved would have to get permission first (from his club). I don't expect this to happen but it wouldn't shock me. The RS value speaking ability for its broadcast entities. Those who don't have it need not apply. The days of a Jimy Williams being the RS skipper are over.
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Post by ryan24 on Oct 12, 2017 6:57:08 GMT -5
It is really sad to read some of these comments. Because we lost to a good team lets dump on everyone. Pedy bleeds RS colors. He is the poster boy for how to conduct yourself as a major league player. He plays HARD everyday and tries to play thru injuries. he has given a lot and done a lot for the sox during his career. Where does he fit into the picture going forward? Good question. I think he is a life long sox organization person. Does he retire? very good possibility.
Who is the next manager? I have no idea. But, by the end of the first week of next season he will be trashed by this site and the Boston media. Will he be any better than Farrell? I certainly hope the new manager gets to pick his own staff.
Do we need some new blood in the organization? Most definitely. Whether it is thru coaching or scouting the organization needs to get better at developing Solid big league pitching. Instead of having to buy it. Banister right now is the only one I could see keeping.
Lots of injuries and several key players had off years at the same time. Will this happen again next year? Probably not but it is hard to tell.
I see things about lets buy up JDM and Hosmer. Ouch. I do not want to get buried with a bunch of over priced LONG term vet contracts. The dodgers helped us once. They can not do it again.
I agree this is going to be a VERY busy off season. Forget the manager situation, just look at the roster. Do you keep all 3 catchers? If you trade one, where is the backup in the organization to replace if one of the 2 remaining gets hurt? At 1st. is Travis a big leaguer? What do you do with Hanley? Do you resign Moreland? Who plays 2nd.? Pedy? Is XB your ss of the future? Is there an extension coming? 3rd seems set with Devers. That's just the infield. Did not touch the outfield, starting pitching . All 8 of them. The pile load of relief.
Last but not least. How do you manage the salary structure? Henry will spend , but how much?
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sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
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Post by sdl on Oct 12, 2017 8:30:51 GMT -5
Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena. Shea Hillenbrand for Byung-Hyun Kim.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 12, 2017 8:40:07 GMT -5
Trading Hillenbrand opened up the everyday third base and DH to Muller and Ortiz. And it's forgotten now, but Kim really solidified the bullpen in 2003, while Hillenbrand was bad for the Diamondbacks that year. In over 2400 plate appearances for the rest of his career, Hillenbrand produced 1.0 WAR. Kim's was 1.3 with the Red Sox. Hillenbrand also had the demeanor and attitude of Shea Hillenbrand. That was, at worst, the headache you have for the headache you didn't know you needed.
Arroyo for Pena was legitimately bad, particularly in the way they negotiated in bad faith to get Arroyo a cheap extension and then spun him as soon as he had a below-market deal in place.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Oct 12, 2017 8:48:51 GMT -5
The Farrell situation sent me off to look at durations of RS managers since the Impossible Dream
This list actually spans the time I've been a fan (starting as an 11 year old in 1967!). I had forgotten (probably a good thing) some of the names on the list below.
Dick Williams 1967-1969 (replaced before season end) - 1967 Impossible Dream season, World Series loss Eddie Kasko 1970-1973 (replaced before season end) Darrell Johnson 1974-1976 (replaced before season end) - 1975 World Series loss Don Zimmer 1977-1980 (replaced before season end) Ralph Houk 1981-1984 John McNamara 1985-1988 (replaced before season end) - 1986 World Series loss, 1988 ALCS loss Joe Morgan 1989-1991 - 1990 ALCS loss Butch Hobson 1992-1994 Kevin Kennedy 1995-1996 - 1995 LDS loss Jimmy Williams 1997-2001 (replaced before season end) - 1998 and 1999 LDS losses Grady Little 2002-2003 - 2003 ALCS loss Tito Francona 2004-2011 - 2004 WS win, 2005 LDS loss, 2007 WS win, 2008 ALCS loss, 2009 LDS loss, 2011 epic collapse Bobby Valentine 2012 John Farrell 2013-2017 - 2013 WS win, 2016 LDS loss, 2017 LDS loss
average tenure over that 50 year period is 2-3 years or so. Tito set the standard, with Farrell following.
The arc of expected success is clear from the above as well.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 12, 2017 9:38:20 GMT -5
Epstein didn't bring in Cherington, BC predated Theo on the Sox. I wouldn't give this much credibility if the guy can't get that right. Certainly not correct, so good point, but Epstein made Cherington the director of player development in 2002 when he became GM. In spirit, the point stands that Cherington was, or at least became, part of Esptein's "front office tree," if there's an equivalent to the often used "coaching tree" term.
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sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
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Post by sdl on Oct 12, 2017 11:31:11 GMT -5
Trading Hillenbrand opened up the everyday third base and DH to Muller and Ortiz. And it's forgotten now, but Kim really solidified the bullpen in 2003, while Hillenbrand was bad for the Diamondbacks that year. In over 2400 plate appearances for the rest of his career, Hillenbrand produced 1.0 WAR. Kim's was 1.3 with the Red Sox. Hillenbrand also had the demeanor and attitude of Shea Hillenbrand. That was, at worst, the headache you have for the headache you didn't know you needed. Arroyo for Pena was legitimately bad, particularly in the way they negotiated in bad faith to get Arroyo a cheap extension and then spun him as soon as he had a below-market deal in place. Kim had that one good season and then it was downhill from there.
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sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
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Post by sdl on Oct 12, 2017 11:38:01 GMT -5
The Farrell situation sent me off to look at durations of RS managers since the Impossible Dream This list actually spans the time I've been a fan (starting as an 11 year old in 1967!). I had forgotten (probably a good thing) some of the names on the list below. Dick Williams 1967-1969 (replaced before season end) - 1967 Impossible Dream season, World Series loss Eddie Kasko 1970-1973 (replaced before season end) Darrell Johnson 1974-1976 (replaced before season end) - 1975 World Series loss Don Zimmer 1977-1980 (replaced before season end) Ralph Houk 1981-1984 John McNamara 1985-1988 (replaced before season end) - 1986 World Series loss, 1988 ALCS loss Joe Morgan 1989-1991 - 1990 ALCS loss Butch Hobson 1992-1994 Kevin Kennedy 1995-1996 - 1995 LDS loss Jimmy Williams 1997-2001 (replaced before season end) - 1998 and 1999 LDS losses Grady Little 2002-2003 - 2003 ALCS loss Tito Francona 2004-2011 - 2004 WS win, 2005 LDS loss, 2007 WS win, 2008 ALCS loss, 2009 LDS loss, 2011 epic collapse Bobby Valentine 2012 John Farrell 2013-2017 - 2013 WS win, 2016 LDS loss, 2017 LDS loss average tenure over that 50 year period is 2-3 years or so. Tito set the standard, with Farrell following. The arc of expected success is clear from the above as well. If 1978 was this year, Zimmer would've been gone right after the Bucky F-ing Dent game.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 12, 2017 11:40:45 GMT -5
The Farrell situation sent me off to look at durations of RS managers since the Impossible Dream This list actually spans the time I've been a fan (starting as an 11 year old in 1967!). I had forgotten (probably a good thing) some of the names on the list below. Dick Williams 1967-1969 (replaced before season end) - 1967 Impossible Dream season, World Series loss Eddie Kasko 1970-1973 (replaced before season end) Darrell Johnson 1974-1976 (replaced before season end) - 1975 World Series loss Don Zimmer 1977-1980 (replaced before season end) Ralph Houk 1981-1984 John McNamara 1985-1988 (replaced before season end) - 1986 World Series loss, 1988 ALCS loss Joe Morgan 1989-1991 - 1990 ALCS loss Butch Hobson 1992-1994 Kevin Kennedy 1995-1996 - 1995 LDS loss Jimmy Williams 1997-2001 (replaced before season end) - 1998 and 1999 LDS losses Grady Little 2002-2003 - 2003 ALCS loss Tito Francona 2004-2011 - 2004 WS win, 2005 LDS loss, 2007 WS win, 2008 ALCS loss, 2009 LDS loss, 2011 epic collapse Bobby Valentine 2012 John Farrell 2013-2017 - 2013 WS win, 2016 LDS loss, 2017 LDS loss average tenure over that 50 year period is 2-3 years or so. Tito set the standard, with Farrell following. The arc of expected success is clear from the above as well. If 1978 was this year, Zimmer would've been gone right after the Bucky F-ing Dent game. He should have been gone long before then.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 12, 2017 12:41:03 GMT -5
Speier doing some reporting here. An excerpt: The loss of both Ortiz and especially bench coach Torey Lovullo were considered significant in that regard. Lovullo’s ability to connect with all parts of the organization, to digest information, and put people at ease was remarkable.
He was a constant presence both in the clubhouse and in Farrell’s office, in ways that complemented Farrell extremely well. The young players on the team related extremely well to the energetic Lovullo.www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2017/10/12/changing-clubhouse-changing-game-led-john-farrell-departure/udmlcW3yBhWJK57GJSuk2I/story.htmlI believed this last year, as well. It’s too bad they couldn’t offer or talk Farrell into a front office position after his cancer episode and hire Lovullo. Anyway...
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Post by soxfansince67 on Oct 12, 2017 12:57:08 GMT -5
Interesting, worthwhile read (the Speier Globe article posted by guidas). None of it is remotely surprising, and the logic seems sound.
Now....who will fit the bill, and be asked to step in to this challenging job?
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Oct 12, 2017 13:01:53 GMT -5
The Farrell situation sent me off to look at durations of RS managers since the Impossible Dream This list actually spans the time I've been a fan (starting as an 11 year old in 1967!). I had forgotten (probably a good thing) some of the names on the list below. Dick Williams 1967-1969 (replaced before season end) - 1967 Impossible Dream season, World Series loss Eddie Kasko 1970-1973 (replaced before season end) Darrell Johnson 1974-1976 (replaced before season end) - 1975 World Series loss Don Zimmer 1977-1980 (replaced before season end) Ralph Houk 1981-1984 John McNamara 1985-1988 (replaced before season end) - 1986 World Series loss, 1988 ALCS loss Joe Morgan 1989-1991 - 1990 ALCS loss Butch Hobson 1992-1994 Kevin Kennedy 1995-1996 - 1995 LDS loss Jimmy Williams 1997-2001 (replaced before season end) - 1998 and 1999 LDS losses Grady Little 2002-2003 - 2003 ALCS loss Tito Francona 2004-2011 - 2004 WS win, 2005 LDS loss, 2007 WS win, 2008 ALCS loss, 2009 LDS loss, 2011 epic collapse Bobby Valentine 2012 John Farrell 2013-2017 - 2013 WS win, 2016 LDS loss, 2017 LDS loss average tenure over that 50 year period is 2-3 years or so. Tito set the standard, with Farrell following. The arc of expected success is clear from the above as well. A veritable Murderer's Row of mediocrity, or less.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Oct 12, 2017 13:04:33 GMT -5
That might be the dumbest article I've ever read and that's all of the commentary I'll give on it. Tomase has written "dumber" before, although it got retracted and apologized for. I haven't read a word he's written since.
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Post by patford on Oct 12, 2017 13:52:17 GMT -5
Farrell always struck me as tight, not confident. I believe players pick up on that sort of thing. It helps when you have someone like Ortiz around. Maybe they should make Ortiz the manager?
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Post by soxfansince67 on Oct 12, 2017 14:27:14 GMT -5
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sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
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Post by sdl on Oct 12, 2017 15:27:50 GMT -5
DeMarlo knows the organization. I remember him and the '93 Ft. Lauderdale Red Sox. I was a season tix holder their only year.
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sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
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Post by sdl on Oct 12, 2017 15:29:17 GMT -5
If 1978 was this year, Zimmer would've been gone right after the Bucky F-ing Dent game. He should have been gone long before then. Those two hacks Clif & Claf were his pals. They defended him and blamed Bill Lee for the '78 collapse.
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Post by soxfan06 on Oct 12, 2017 15:32:13 GMT -5
This is literally reverse racism. How about we hire the best person for the job? Regardless of skin color, race, religion or sex. Christ man, not everything has to be a political statement. Just a dumb article. Especially considering he listed two legit viable candidates in Alex Cora and DeMarlo Hale. Why the hell couldnt he write an article about their merits. Not about their race?
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 12, 2017 16:03:14 GMT -5
"The Red Sox’ long list of managerial candidates should be a short one, long on minorities, and Boston’s final choice should be a minority, a person of color." Yeah, no. You know why teams never "do this"? Because you shouldn't pick someone to run your business based solely on how they look, that's preposterous and no sane person in charge of anything would give it much thought. To be completely fair, the article does provide with some interesting choices that would fit that mold, but why not narrow it down to like two of those guys and build your article around that? Say, why not write that Alex Cora should be the manager because he's a damn interesting candidate that looks very competent, one with club ties that would also fit the apparent need for a PoC?
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Post by ramireja on Oct 12, 2017 16:12:23 GMT -5
Dombrowski receiving a lot of heat for his failure to explain Farrell's firing. Since when do GM's give explicit reasons for a manager's dismissal? Isn't it pretty par for the course to give a generic "club needed to move in a different direction" type answer?
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