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Post by Guidas on Dec 11, 2017 16:58:03 GMT -5
It seems a few people on here have lost their minds over Stanton and aren't thinking clearly. Like in the last 3 years they forget 2017 is the outlier. The year of the Homerun, the most every hit in the history of the game. Like a 50% increase since 2014. It's why power hitters are having a very hard time getting paid. It's like you guys think 2017 is the norm for Stanton and there's no chance 2015 and 2016 happen again. After those years Stanton had probally the worst contract in Baseball. A contract so bad not one team would claim and take him for free. Heck even after his great 2017, not one team in Baseball would take that full contract. The Yankees demanded money, the Dodgers demanded money, every team demanded the Marlins add money for the current MVP. Those are facts my friends. So they idea that they could just keep him and then just let a team claim him is laughable. That would be a massive risk for a team that lost 10s of millions with a 100 million dollar payroll. For what? So they can finish dead last in attendance again? So they can't fill the stadium even when they give away free tickets? All while Stanton has an MVP season. Very few of these things are facts, as it turns out. 1. Stanton is one of the players who has the most to gain from a de-juiced ball. He's less reliant on environmental factors for his power than anyone in baseball except maybe Judge. Didi Gregorius and Brian Dozier are in trouble if the ball goes back to normal, whereas Stanton will only be more valuable as power dries up across the league. 2. The contract isn't underwater. You can look at the math here if you want: www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-case-for-acquiring-stanton/If you want to argue that the projection systems are wrong about Stanton... show your work. And "He wasn't great in 2016" isn't sufficient. 3. The Dodgers, Yankees, etc, demanded money because they were in a position to make that demand. It wasn't a reflection on Stanton's value, it's a reflection of the Marlins's awful negotiating tactics. This has been explained several times in this thread. Dude, they're talking about getting their payroll down to $55m. Not that what you're talking about is ever that effective a strategy for building a farm system but they're not going to be able to sign many of even the crappiest free agents. Stanton is a once-in-a-generation franchise defining player for the Marlins. If an owner can't afford to keep him around, he has no business owning an MLB franchise. Truth. How could MLB approve this bozo ownership group? They are gutting then banking on the competitive balance payments, like Loria did. Meanwhile, Jeter pays himself $5M a year, which reimburses his cash position (or whatever he used as collateral) in 5 years. It's a joke.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 11, 2017 17:25:16 GMT -5
“@bradfo: Dombrowski said called Marlins last week about Stanton but they were already locked in with Yankees” “ evandrellich: Dave Dombrowski says adding hitting is indeed the priority, to be clear. Notes that he sees people suggesting the Sox need more than one bat. He sees room only for one big bat with current roster. Didn’t handicap whether addition more likely by trade or free agency.” “@alexspeier: Dombrowski: ‘We’re not prioritizing pitching. … middle-of the order bat. That hasn’t changed. First base (or) DH.’” “@alexspeier: Dombrowski: Stanton deal doesn’t change what Sox trying to do. Sox already were trying to build the best team. ‘Already trying to get better and do the best we can.’” “@alexspeier: Dombrowski says Sox want to keep OF together. ‘I don’t know where those rumors have started but they’re not accurate.’ Doesn’t rule out a move involving an OF, but suggests Sox aren’t looking to do that.” “@alexspeier: Dombrowski: ‘Getting a RH reliever is not our driving force.’ Says Sox have Carson Smith as one of most effective right-on-right pitchers in baseball.” “ evandrellich: Dave Dombrowski says he talked to Mike Hill about Giancarlo Stanton last week. At that point Marlins were already engaged with Yankees and Red Sox were not on the four team list.” “@smittyonmlb: Dombrowski: “We’re not prioritizing pitching.” Said Red Sox are looking for a middle of the order hitter.”
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 11, 2017 17:26:26 GMT -5
"I didn't ask the hottie to dance because she'd just say no." Brilliant strategy Front Office. Can't wait to hear Dombrowski talk circles around this one. He doesn’t owe anyone even an explanation. Stanton would have been a dumb move for us.
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Post by prangerx on Dec 11, 2017 17:41:57 GMT -5
There waa no excuse not to at least pitch a deal for Stanton. Not wanting the contract is a bad reason. His contract is going to be a bargin after Harper and Machado get their money next year. This team has two years to win a world series. Where are we going to get a Stanton level hitter or less than Stanton' s contract?
Yankees have made a bunch of deals like this in the past few years where they got to retain their top prospects. That makes the cost more than worth it. I also feel its very likley that Stanton ops out in four years anyway.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Dec 11, 2017 18:09:23 GMT -5
This thread really makes me wonder if people understand the term "Generational".
Stanton is a great hitter, but is he a once in generation type of hitter? Not at all.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 11, 2017 18:09:44 GMT -5
So Dombrowski basically just confirmed that (1) there was indeed a four-team list and the Red Sox weren't on it, and (2) he did call.
Anyone have outrage left they want to express?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 11, 2017 18:10:52 GMT -5
This thread really makes me wonder if people understand the term "Generational". Stanton is a great hitter, but is he a once in generation type of hitter? Not at all. I think people have been using it regarding the organization, not regarding the league. Admittedly, a weird way to use the term, but in that context, the term makes a little more sense.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 11, 2017 18:13:25 GMT -5
Yes. Your post made sense. But that does not take the Sting away from watching our best rival increase their main advantage over our team. This just plain sucks. And trying to place blame on Jeter, the commissioners office, Dombrowski, the Boston media is just fans venting. Besides, won't it be more fun for the Cora and the boys to "slay" Goliath? As a life long RS fan I am comfortable in our role as underdog. Makes beating Aaron F. Boone and his band of mercenaries all that more enjoyable. Start the Gregorian chants, bring on the whirling dervishes, we are on a mission. amen brother. It is great to have won 3 titles, but this role is something we are all used to. Let the games begin
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danr
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Post by danr on Dec 11, 2017 18:13:41 GMT -5
I am not a bit disappointed that the Sox did not get Stanton. I have a gut feeling that he isn't going to work out for the Yankees and that contract is going to be a very heavy anchor.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 11, 2017 18:15:50 GMT -5
There waa no excuse not to at least pitch a deal for Stanton. Not wanting the contract is a bad reason. His contract is going to be a bargin after Harper and Machado get their money next year. This team has two years to win a world series. Where are we going to get a Stanton level hitter or less than Stanton' s contract? Yankees have made a bunch of deals like this in the past few years where they got to retain their top prospects. That makes the cost more than worth it. I also feel its very likley that Stanton ops out in four years anyway. the excuse may be they are looking at the FA class of 2018. We don't know. The Sox have hitched their wagon this year on the 2017 club, with likely one or 2 bats. I don't think that is bad strategy.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 11, 2017 18:18:50 GMT -5
So Dombrowski basically just confirmed that (1) there was indeed a four-team list and the Red Sox weren't on it, and (2) he did call. Anyone have outrage left they want to express? What I got out of it was that the Sox didn't try until the Yankees were involved. Where were they when Stanton was talking to the Giants and Cardinals? Their fan bases know that their teams went all out to get Stanton to their team. I'm not convinced the Red Sox went all out. The Cards and Giants weren't on the list but at least they got a chance to convince him. If the Red Sox told the Marlins they'd take the contract and they get to sit with Stanton and he says no, then there is zero outrage - the Sox did everything they could do to get the best power hitter in baseball. The outrage would be at Stanton for rejecting Boston. That's not what happened here. And now if Bob Nightingale is correct (which he is often not) and the Sox would prefer to trade for the power hitter they need that tells me the Sox don't want to spend the money (like they didn't with Stanton) and are willing to clean out the rest of the best of their farm system (good-bye Groome and Chavis).
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 11, 2017 18:31:23 GMT -5
This thread really makes me wonder if people understand the term "Generational". Stanton is a great hitter, but is he a once in generation type of hitter? Not at all. Only six players have ever hit 59 or more home runs in a season, ever. It’s all very fuzzy because what’s a generation, what are the qualifications, etc, but the point here is that players like him don’t come around very often.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 11, 2017 18:33:04 GMT -5
So Dombrowski basically just confirmed that (1) there was indeed a four-team list and the Red Sox weren't on it, and (2) he did call. Anyone have outrage left they want to express? What I got out of it was that the Sox didn't try until the Yankees were involved. Where were they when Stanton was talking to the Giants and Cardinals? Their fan bases know that their teams went all out to get Stanton to their team. I'm not convinced the Red Sox went all out. The Cards and Giants weren't on the list but at least they got a chance to convince him. If the Red Sox told the Marlins they'd take the contract and they get to sit with Stanton and he says no, then there is zero outrage - the Sox did everything they could do to get the best power hitter in baseball. The outrage would be at Stanton for rejecting Boston. That's not what happened here. And now if Bob Nightingale is correct (which he is often not) and the Sox would prefer to trade for the power hitter they need that tells me the Sox don't want to spend the money (like they didn't with Stanton) and are willing to clean out the rest of the best of their farm system (good-bye Groome and Chavis). Dombrowski checked in with them at the beginning of the process at the GM meetings. I can't find a link but the story was that he checked in and the price was too high in terms of players plus prospects. I'm sure it's over in the Stanton thread in the Trade Proposal Subforum, if not here. He checked back in again last week, which would've been the time frame you're talking about. At that point, Stanton had presented the Marlins with a four-team list that the Red Sox were not on. The Marlins, to my understanding, didn't have the four-team list until after he'd rejected the Cards and Giants trades. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong there. I mean, how often do you want him to check back in?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 11, 2017 18:35:31 GMT -5
So Dombrowski basically just confirmed that (1) there was indeed a four-team list and the Red Sox weren't on it, and (2) he did call. Anyone have outrage left they want to express? What I got out of it was that the Sox didn't try until the Yankees were involved. Where were they when Stanton was talking to the Giants and Cardinals? Their fan bases know that their teams went all out to get Stanton to their team. I'm not convinced the Red Sox went all out. The Cards and Giants weren't on the list but at least they got a chance to convince him. If the Red Sox told the Marlins they'd take the contract and they get to sit with Stanton and he says no, then there is zero outrage - the Sox did everything they could do to get the best power hitter in baseball. The outrage would be at Stanton for rejecting Boston. That's not what happened here. And now if Bob Nightingale is correct (which he is often not) and the Sox would prefer to trade for the power hitter they need that tells me the Sox don't want to spend the money (like they didn't with Stanton) and are willing to clean out the rest of the best of their farm system (good-bye Groome and Chavis). The outrage will continue 24/7 no matter what happens so why should anyone care?
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 11, 2017 18:46:26 GMT -5
What I got out of it was that the Sox didn't try until the Yankees were involved. Where were they when Stanton was talking to the Giants and Cardinals? Their fan bases know that their teams went all out to get Stanton to their team. I'm not convinced the Red Sox went all out. The Cards and Giants weren't on the list but at least they got a chance to convince him. If the Red Sox told the Marlins they'd take the contract and they get to sit with Stanton and he says no, then there is zero outrage - the Sox did everything they could do to get the best power hitter in baseball. The outrage would be at Stanton for rejecting Boston. That's not what happened here. And now if Bob Nightingale is correct (which he is often not) and the Sox would prefer to trade for the power hitter they need that tells me the Sox don't want to spend the money (like they didn't with Stanton) and are willing to clean out the rest of the best of their farm system (good-bye Groome and Chavis). Dombrowski checked in with them at the beginning of the process at the GM meetings. I can't find a link but the story was that he checked in and the price was too high in terms of players plus prospects. I'm sure it's over in the Stanton thread in the Trade Proposal Subforum, if not here. He checked back in again last week, which would've been the time frame you're talking about. At that point, Stanton had presented the Marlins with a four-team list that the Red Sox were not on. The Marlins, to my understanding, didn't have the four-team list until after he'd rejected the Cards and Giants trades. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong there. I mean, how often do you want him to check back in? www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2017/11/12/red-sox-interest-giancarlo-stanton-hovers-over-baseball-meetings/y4rLaNHvcXVu1ehwF1aNEP/story.html
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 11, 2017 18:48:38 GMT -5
Stanton just had an all-time great power season. Generational type players have great seasons year in and year out. Like ARod or Trout. They are the best of the best.
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Post by swingingbunt on Dec 11, 2017 18:57:54 GMT -5
I searched the board and found two posts that referenced Stanton's "power" as being generational. Let's not build a strawman here.
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Post by theburn on Dec 11, 2017 19:25:09 GMT -5
What I got out of it was that the Sox didn't try until the Yankees were involved. Where were they when Stanton was talking to the Giants and Cardinals? Their fan bases know that their teams went all out to get Stanton to their team. I'm not convinced the Red Sox went all out. The Cards and Giants weren't on the list but at least they got a chance to convince him. If the Red Sox told the Marlins they'd take the contract and they get to sit with Stanton and he says no, then there is zero outrage - the Sox did everything they could do to get the best power hitter in baseball. The outrage would be at Stanton for rejecting Boston. That's not what happened here. And now if Bob Nightingale is correct (which he is often not) and the Sox would prefer to trade for the power hitter they need that tells me the Sox don't want to spend the money (like they didn't with Stanton) and are willing to clean out the rest of the best of their farm system (good-bye Groome and Chavis). Dombrowski checked in with them at the beginning of the process at the GM meetings. I can't find a link but the story was that he checked in and the price was too high in terms of players plus prospects. I'm sure it's over in the Stanton thread in the Trade Proposal Subforum, if not here. He checked back in again last week, which would've been the time frame you're talking about. At that point, Stanton had presented the Marlins with a four-team list that the Red Sox were not on. The Marlins, to my understanding, didn't have the four-team list until after he'd rejected the Cards and Giants trades. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong there. I mean, how often do you want him to check back in? Well, if it means risking Stanton going to your rival, more than twice might have been nice. Also, there's a difference between 'checking in' with Stanton's camp and engaging them with an honest pitch. We have no evidence to suggest they did the latter. The Globe quoted a Red Sox team official who said Stanton to the Yanks "[expletives] our [expletive] up." To say I'm outraged would be an overstatement, but the evidence suggests the FO let this slip through the cracks and that's disappointing.
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Post by tonyc on Dec 11, 2017 19:33:02 GMT -5
In the context of the Stanton deal I am glad that for decades I literally prayed for a single series win and we’ve had three. I’m glad that I care a bit less about the Sox than I have given their own players greed, poor behavior and several writers reports on being a less likable team than they’ve had in years. I’m glad I’ve cared much more deeply about the Bruins the last few years and things look great in the future. We’ve gone through the plus and minus of Dombrowski’s style ad nauseum and I do find a downside in terms of rooting interest when we’re bereft of prospects. Finally, I will reiterate a point I made months ago- after years of just throwing money and seeing what will stick Brian Cashman has done his best work ever as a gm over the last year. He’s stayed below the cap, maximized prospect return for players and rentals. He’s finally flexing Yankee type might and is set to do more in a year, but heck Judge seems like a good guy and as a group this team is probably a nicer bunch than the Redsox, so I’m thank goodness not sick to my stomach like when they signed Rich Gossage or the winter they signed both Texiera and Sabbathia. Of course he could get hurt and decline and be a saddle on them too.
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Post by scottysmalls on Dec 11, 2017 19:41:57 GMT -5
I think questioning the effort of the Sox FO here is unfair. Nothing in Dave Dombrowski's history makes me think he didn't do his best to acquire Stanton, in fact I'm surprised he didn't offer a disappointingly high amount for him. The thing is, just because he went to the Yankees on a great deal for them doesn't mean the Red Sox could have gotten that same deal. In fact based on my understanding, it seems very likely that Stanton if he ever would have approved a trade to the Sox in the first place would have demanded that they check with the four teams on his list first. Upon hearing that the Red Sox were interested the Yankees would have made this offer anyways, Stanton would have rejected the Sox deal and the same thing would have happened.
It obviously stinks that the Yankees got better, but the Red Sox can and probably will still add a big hitter, the recent reports make me more optimistic they won't trade Jackie away for a disappointing return, they have lots of room for internal improvement while the Yankees have lots of room for regression, and they won the division last year anyways. Also, all the concerns people had here with Stanton's contract, his injury history and his opt out situation don't just disappear because he went elsewhere.
All is not lost people.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 11, 2017 19:53:04 GMT -5
What I got out of it was that the Sox didn't try until the Yankees were involved. Where were they when Stanton was talking to the Giants and Cardinals? Their fan bases know that their teams went all out to get Stanton to their team. I'm not convinced the Red Sox went all out. The Cards and Giants weren't on the list but at least they got a chance to convince him. If the Red Sox told the Marlins they'd take the contract and they get to sit with Stanton and he says no, then there is zero outrage - the Sox did everything they could do to get the best power hitter in baseball. The outrage would be at Stanton for rejecting Boston. That's not what happened here. And now if Bob Nightingale is correct (which he is often not) and the Sox would prefer to trade for the power hitter they need that tells me the Sox don't want to spend the money (like they didn't with Stanton) and are willing to clean out the rest of the best of their farm system (good-bye Groome and Chavis). Dombrowski checked in with them at the beginning of the process at the GM meetings. I can't find a link but the story was that he checked in and the price was too high in terms of players plus prospects. I'm sure it's over in the Stanton thread in the Trade Proposal Subforum, if not here. He checked back in again last week, which would've been the time frame you're talking about. At that point, Stanton had presented the Marlins with a four-team list that the Red Sox were not on. The Marlins, to my understanding, didn't have the four-team list until after he'd rejected the Cards and Giants trades. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong there. I mean, how often do you want him to check back in? I didn't want him to check back. I wanted him to tell the Marlins upfront, look we might not have prospects you're hot for, but we'll take his entire contract off your hands. That I think would have gotten an audience with Stanton and the Marlins. When all was said and done, what the Marlins really wanted was the contract taken off their hands, not prospects. He says in the quote regarding the "dollars that were involved." I read that to mean that John Henry didn't want to take on the contract. Had the Red Sox offered to take on the entirely of the contract I think they would have met with Stanton, done their sales pitch, and if he doesn't accept you put your best foot forward and you move on knowing you did everything possible to secure his talent, and there's no regret. I don't honestly feel that's the case here, and that they're willing to bypass Martinez on the FA market, if true, and deal away the rest of their farm system tells me that Henry doesn't want any more huge contracts. The only other reason that could make sense is that the Sox are saving for Harper, but I really don't buy that at this time, but who knows? If the Sox disappoint this year, maybe they go all out for him next year, again, not unlike grabbing Price after letting Lester go.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Dec 11, 2017 20:20:44 GMT -5
The Marlins probably asked for Groome, Beeks, and offered to kick in $25 million.
I imagined DD replied "We'll give you Groome, Chavis, Beeks, Houck, Mata, and we'll eat the entire contract and we aren't paying a penny less"
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Post by soxjim on Dec 11, 2017 21:25:17 GMT -5
I'm with Chris here. Any outrage with DD on this Stanton issue is completely wrong imo. No doubt the Sox did what they could. IMO it is rather obvious the Stanton Camp didn't like Boston for whatever reason and the best way to not talk about it is to blame the GM and move on. DD outbid himself to get Price. He's looking for a middle-of-the-order bat. To think he had any shot at Stanton imo is flat out wrong/fantasy.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 11, 2017 21:27:34 GMT -5
I have no complaints about how dave handled the Stanton or the ohtani situation.
I kind of like that we are now at the December winter meetings and no one has a clue what dave has up his sleeve.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 11, 2017 21:58:08 GMT -5
So Dombrowski basically just confirmed that (1) there was indeed a four-team list and the Red Sox weren't on it, and (2) he did call. Anyone have outrage left they want to express? Sure. 1) So what if they weren't on the list - maybe it's because they never tried to sell Stanton's agents (and by extension, Stanton) on the fit. And if you're not on the list why not make the solid offer like St L and SF did - not on the list but Sox have better chances of making playoffs than either next couple years. 2) Sounds like a pretty tepid "call." And FWIW, I actually believe the agent in this case - Occam's razor. He has less to lose in a lie. Piss poor job by Dombrowski overall tells me ownership never wanted to pay that bill.
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