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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 21:06:27 GMT -5
Because. He. Was. Unavailable. Due. To. Fatigue. Yet. He. Wasn't. With. The. Mets.
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Post by johnmark on Apr 2, 2018 21:07:47 GMT -5
With the pitcher spot coming up to the plate in the 7th, there was no way that Brian was going to get a shot to continue. If it was an AL game then it would have been different. You can't or rather shouldnt ignore this reality.
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Post by johnmark on Apr 2, 2018 21:09:07 GMT -5
Because. He. Was. Unavailable. Due. To. Fatigue. The fact that you still think 8 months later that you know better than Addison Reed and the Red Sox coaches about Addison Reed's fatigue level is why people (and more specifically, me) aren't giving you the benefit of the doubt on Johnson. Johnson's below average pitches did pretty decent huh?
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Post by patford on Apr 2, 2018 21:11:20 GMT -5
Not that it will probably matter but Walden is really getting squeezed. Umpire in no hurry to get home I guess.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 21:11:56 GMT -5
With the pitcher spot coming up to the plate in the 7th, there was no way that Brian was going to get a shot to continue. If it was an AL game then it would have been different. You can't or rather shouldnt ignore this reality. What? The Sox had a 4 or 5 run lead by the time Brian Johnson's spot came up in the lineup. They could have easily batted Johnson there and he probably would have been fine going through 7. I wasn't the only person calling for Johnson to pitch 7 either. I'm the NL you don't need offense when you have a lead.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 2, 2018 21:12:33 GMT -5
Because. He. Was. Unavailable. Due. To. Fatigue. The fact that you still think 8 months later that you know better than Addison Reed and the Red Sox coaches about Addison Reed's fatigue level is why people (and more specifically, me) aren't giving you the benefit of the doubt on Johnson. Johnson's below average pitches did pretty decent huh? So I ignored this the first time because I thought it was general snark, but since you're apparently directing it me, here are some examples of things I've said over the years about Johnson: forum.soxprospects.com/post/103881/threadforum.soxprospects.com/post/78385/threadforum.soxprospects.com/post/62349/threadI think maybe you are confusing me with someone who hasn't been driving the Brian Johnson bandwagon since 2013?
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Post by johnmark on Apr 2, 2018 21:13:51 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 21:14:02 GMT -5
Because. He. Was. Unavailable. Due. To. Fatigue. The fact that you still think 8 months later that you know better than Addison Reed and the Red Sox coaches about Addison Reed's fatigue level is why people (and more specifically, me) aren't giving you the benefit of the doubt on Johnson. Cora has been protecting every player so far. Farrell was fired too, if you haven't noticed. 8 months later.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 2, 2018 21:14:51 GMT -5
he's got Kimbrel up. that's interesting.
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Post by johnmark on Apr 2, 2018 21:16:37 GMT -5
With the pitcher spot coming up to the plate in the 7th, there was no way that Brian was going to get a shot to continue. If it was an AL game then it would have been different. You can't or rather shouldnt ignore this reality. What? The Sox had a 4 or 5 run lead by the time Brian Johnson's spot came up in the lineup. They could have easily batted Johnson there and he probably would have been fine going through 7. I wasn't the only person calling for Johnson to pitch 7 either. I'm the NL you don't need offense when you have a lead. It was obvious that Cora wasn't letting him hit. With that mentality why would he send him out to look at pitches? Got to check out bullpen arms. Brian hadn't thrown over 80 pitches in a game this spring so I just don't see it as even an option in the eyes of Cora.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 2, 2018 21:16:41 GMT -5
Cora has Walden over 30 pitches. Is that his current role on the team or is that normal? Couldn't he have given Poyner some of these at-bats?
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Post by Don Caballero on Apr 2, 2018 21:16:48 GMT -5
I like my manager not having a needlessly short leash on the reliever, but I'm not sure what he's trying to achieve with Walden here especially after his very pedestrian 8th.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Apr 2, 2018 21:16:52 GMT -5
Hanley with the (very limber) stretch!
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Post by 07redsox on Apr 2, 2018 21:17:47 GMT -5
It's the "he shouldn't need to be protected" line, and the way it lines up with your constant attitude that pitchers should be pushed to the breaking point. You talked all last summer that Sale was a "horse" who Farrell wasn't going deep enough into games with; you bitched and moaned that they weren't pushing Addison Reed hard enough in a game when he'd pitched the two previous days and was unavailable, under the belief that they shouldn't worry about pushing him past the breaking point because he was a free agent and him breaking wasn't their problem. It's a bad way to view baseball players. I was wrong about Sale yes. I wasn't wrong about Reed. He lasted and was one of the Sox best relievers last year. I don't know why pushing a 6th starter when your 4 and 5 starters are coming back really soon has anything to do with this. I don't know how Johnson's anxiety problems have anything to do with anything. He has already pitched a complete game since returning. I want to protect the bullpen for the rest of the year. What does pitching a complete game since returning from anxiety problems and having anxiety problems have to do with each other? You do realize that anxiety issues really don't just disappear completely, right? It isn't the same as the flu where once you aren't showing symptoms any longer you are healthy again.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Apr 2, 2018 21:18:38 GMT -5
Hanley flashing mad leather!
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 2, 2018 21:20:47 GMT -5
I like my manager not having a needlessly short leash on the reliever, but I'm not sure what he's trying to achieve with Walden here especially after his very pedestrian 8th. So, this isn't a shot at you at all, but I think we've gotten so accustomed to relievers not being allowed to give up runs that we get panicky when they do. Walden allowing four runs in two innings is (at least in a vacuum) a better outcome than them using another reliever. If the goal is to maximize Walden's ERA, they should get him out, but if the goal is to win both tonight and in future nights, having the back-end relievers give up runs in additional innings of work in a game without it changing the outcome is the best way to optimize the 'pen.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 2, 2018 21:20:50 GMT -5
Anytime Derek Jeter loses...I win. Great job by our nine !!
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 21:22:11 GMT -5
I was wrong about Sale yes. I wasn't wrong about Reed. He lasted and was one of the Sox best relievers last year. I don't know why pushing a 6th starter when your 4 and 5 starters are coming back really soon has anything to do with this. I don't know how Johnson's anxiety problems have anything to do with anything. He has already pitched a complete game since returning. I want to protect the bullpen for the rest of the year. What does pitching a complete game since returning from anxiety problems and having anxiety problems have to do with each other? You do realize that anxiety issues really don't just disappear completely, right? It isn't the same as the flu were once you aren't showing symptoms any longer you are healthy again. I don't know how anxiety problems have to do with anything in Game 5 of a season where you're looking to get a extra inning out of a pitcher. He's not going to break down because the Sox sent him out for the 7th tonight.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 2, 2018 21:22:52 GMT -5
I like my manager not having a needlessly short leash on the reliever, but I'm not sure what he's trying to achieve with Walden here especially after his very pedestrian 8th. So, this isn't a shot at you at all, but I think we've gotten so accustomed to relievers not being allowed to give up runs that we get panicky when they do. Walden allowing four runs in two innings is (at least in a vacuum) a better outcome than them using another reliever. If the goal is to maximize Walden's ERA, they should get him out, but if the goal is to win both tonight and in future nights, having the back-end relievers give up runs in additional innings of work in a game without it changing the outcome is the best way to optimize the 'pen. I agree with this, but it less about what you wrote in the first sentence, as it is preventing what we saw on Opening day. And therein lies the rub.....
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,421
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Post by ianrs on Apr 2, 2018 21:23:09 GMT -5
Ok yeah, Cora is amazing and already managing for October. Obviously if Walden blows the lead though and we burn Kimbrel too, its Farrell's fault.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 21:25:55 GMT -5
What? The Sox had a 4 or 5 run lead by the time Brian Johnson's spot came up in the lineup. They could have easily batted Johnson there and he probably would have been fine going through 7. I wasn't the only person calling for Johnson to pitch 7 either. I'm the NL you don't need offense when you have a lead. It was obvious that Cora wasn't letting him hit. With that mentality why would he send him out to look at pitches? Got to check out bullpen arms. Brian hadn't thrown over 80 pitches in a game this spring so I just don't see it as even an option in the eyes of Cora. Why do they *need* to check out bullpen arms in a long season? Why can't Johnson throw a little extra in a regular season game? Cora is being extra cautious with everyone in April, so that isn't a bad thing. Just saying, the 7th inning wouldn't have killed Johnson when he's going back to the bullpen very soon. He's not going to build up enough innings to kill him this season out of the bullpen.
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Post by johnmark on Apr 2, 2018 21:26:02 GMT -5
What does pitching a complete game since returning from anxiety problems and having anxiety problems have to do with each other? You do realize that anxiety issues really don't just disappear completely, right? It isn't the same as the flu were once you aren't showing symptoms any longer you are healthy again. I don't know how anxiety problems have to do with anything in Game 5 of a season where you're looking to get a extra inning out of a pitcher. He's not going to break down because the Sox sent him out for the 7th tonight. Injuries have higher probability for pitcher if fatigued and in the basepaths. I think Cora looked at both being in play and said no Thanks, have a seat. I would have liked to have Brian swinging away all game but it obviously wasn't in the plan so I can't argue with the decision.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 2, 2018 21:26:38 GMT -5
So, this isn't a shot at you at all, but I think we've gotten so accustomed to relievers not being allowed to give up runs that we get panicky when they do. Walden allowing four runs in two innings is (at least in a vacuum) a better outcome than them using another reliever. If the goal is to maximize Walden's ERA, they should get him out, but if the goal is to win both tonight and in future nights, having the back-end relievers give up runs in additional innings of work in a game without it changing the outcome is the best way to optimize the 'pen. I agree with this, but it less about what you wrote in the first sentence, as it is preventing what we saw on Opening day. And therein lies the rub..... Right - and what happened on opening day was pretty fluky, right? I mean, I'm not really the world's biggest Kelly fan, but he didn't give up four runs in any appearance all of last season. If you're constantly managing out of fear of a total meltdown, you end up doing things like using Junichi Tazawa 28 times in the first 54 games, including a bunch of times with four and five run leads and then talking about how he's been overused and then you watch him totally falter in the second half. So yeah, good on Cora for understanding that and not hitting the panic button.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 2, 2018 21:27:34 GMT -5
Ok yeah, Cora is amazing and already managing for October. Obviously if Walden blows the lead though and we burn Kimbrel too, its Farrell's fault. John Farrell will never be forgiven for who knows what. That would be a sad tale, if not for Don Caballero, who has proven his worth in the Farrell battlefield and come out victorious...every...single...time.
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Post by 07redsox on Apr 2, 2018 21:28:07 GMT -5
What does pitching a complete game since returning from anxiety problems and having anxiety problems have to do with each other? You do realize that anxiety issues really don't just disappear completely, right? It isn't the same as the flu were once you aren't showing symptoms any longer you are healthy again. I don't know how anxiety problems have to do with anything in Game 5 of a season where you're looking to get a extra inning out of a pitcher. He's not going to break down because the Sox sent him out for the 7th tonight. No, pitching him an extra inning in one game isn't going to make a difference. But judging by your other posts, and some of the responses to you from other posters, it seems that you would like to see that extra inning or two more often than not. Pushing players every now and then is great. Doing it more often than not is not. That is especially true of someone who suffers from anxiety, where one thing can set off that anxiety and cripple you for a while.
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