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The Red Sox Offseason Thread: Who do you want for 2019?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 31, 2019 22:08:47 GMT -5
No, I meant Dwight Evans who played 19 years for the Red Sox and actually played defense extremely well unlike Manny and didn't take PEDs unlike Manny (do you think PEDs didn't help Manny's offensive numbers somewhat) and didn't shove down traveling secretary Jack McCormick before shooting his way out of town in search of the huge contract Scott Boras promised him. Look, don't mean to be overly harsh regarding Manny - I enjoyed watching him. He could be a hoot on defense and watching him hit was a pleasure although I wonder if and when he was doing PEDs with the Red Sox. I saw all of Manny's time with the Red Sox. I also saw Dwight Evans' career with the Red Sox when he had his offensive awakening, enough to appreciate him very much. Did you see Evans' career or was he just a stat line to you? I saw Evans age like fine wine offensively. I saw him get on base a lot and consistently hit a bunch of clutch homers. The Sox never won with Dwight Evans, but it was hardly his fault. He almost helped them win two championships. Beyond his World Series game 3 tying HR in the 9th inning, 1975, it was his catch in Game 6 that saved their bacon and gave them a chance to win. It was Evans in Game 7 of the 1986 Series that put the Sox up 1-0 with his 1st inning HR and he was the guy that hit an 8th inning 2 run double to bring them back to within 6-5 and give them a chance that they didn't wind up capitalizing. Wasn't the first time. Evans drew a leadoff walk in the last of the 8th of a 3-3 game during the 7th game of the 1975 World Series. Instead of igniting the rally to put the Sox ahead, the rally died instantly. Manny won the 2004 WS MVP and hit well, but his fielding nearly cost them Game 1. So when you say Manny lead them to two championships while Evans didn't I kind of have trouble with that argument when you consider all the breaks that are involved along the way. Again, no disrespect meant to Manny - he did play a huge part in the Red Sox winning culture, but when I think of #24 on the Red Sox I think of Dwight Evans, whose 19 seasons on the Sox are more impactful on my memory and as it was it was Dwight Evans who was terribly underrated. Jim Rice is in the HOF, but of the 3 outfield stars, Dwight Evans actually had the best career and should seriously be considered for the HOF. As it was, he got hosed in the 1981 AL MVP voting. I’m a little young for Evans.. i did see him but not his entire career by any stretch. Manny played in the PED era, what he did was against like competition and he was one of if not the best right handed hitters. Guy was a hitting savant. Yes, Evans spent his entire career here and that’s the best argument for it being his number but it wasn’t just his another great player, a better one, wore it after him. Just wasn’t with the Sox nearly as long. But yes it’s a Sox honor. By 2004 the Red Sox were in the testing era. Besides not everybody was on PEDs so you can't say he was on a level playing field. I don't want to get too far into that argument because I'm (like everybody else) tired of the PEDs argument and I do think Manny was a hitting savant but if he was cheating I'm sure it helped his numbers a bit. But beyond that, Dwight Evans was a Red Sox for an awfully long time, and a HOF caliber player. Manny was a better hitter, yes, even if his numbers were inflated, but Evans was an all around player. I think you're discounting defense. Manny was a negative defender. Dwight Evans was a gold glover in RF, particularly before his bat took off. When I think of #24 I think of Dwight Evans first and Manny Ramirez. Perhaps because Manny was a mercenary while Evans stayed practically his whole career until the Sox dumped him after 1990, signing Jack Clark, instead of letting Evans play one last season. Evans is a Red Sox. Manny was a Red Sox, impacted the Indians, and was part of MannyWood after he hastened his exit out of Boston.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jan 31, 2019 23:15:34 GMT -5
Despite my Manny love, let us not forget that like Pesky, Yaz, Tek, Pedro, Wake, Papi and a few other great Red Sox, Dewey is always there for ST, events, the players. #24 in the Sox HOF belongs to Dewey and it should be retired.
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danr
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Post by danr on Feb 1, 2019 2:56:36 GMT -5
It may have been discussed earlier (I have not been on the board much recently) but I think the greatest improvement that could be made to the Sox would be a trade for Realmuto. I would not be surprised if the Sox were lurking on this right now. This feels like a Dombrowski move. Of course, some of the best minor leaguers would have to be involved but since none, except Chavis, are ranked in anyone's top 100, what's to lose? I am not about to propose a specific deal. It probably would have to involve a mix of minor and major league players.
The Sox have no good catcher prospects in the minors. Realmuto is cheap and under control for a couple of years. He would significantly improve the offense and would be no slouch on defense. He is exactly in his peak years.
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Post by ponch73 on Feb 1, 2019 3:01:18 GMT -5
It may have been discussed earlier (I have not been on the board much recently) but I think the greatest improvement that could be made to the Sox would be a trade for Realmuto. I would not be surprised if the Sox were lurking on this right now. This feels like a Dombrowski move. Of course, some of the best minor leaguers would have to be involved but since none, except Chavis, are ranked in anyone's top 100, what's to lose? I am not about to propose a specific deal. It probably would have to involve a mix of minor and major league players. The Sox have no good catcher prospects in the minors. Realmuto is cheap and under control for a couple of years. He would significantly improve the offense and would be no slouch on defense. He is exactly in his peak years. Don't you think that a package including our best minor leaguers (e.g., Chavis, Casas, Hernandez) and our expendable major leaguers (e.g., Swihart) wouldn't be enough? Or are you proposing that we trade Beni or Devers?
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 1, 2019 8:27:08 GMT -5
It may have been discussed earlier (I have not been on the board much recently) but I think the greatest improvement that could be made to the Sox would be a trade for Realmuto. I would not be surprised if the Sox were lurking on this right now. This feels like a Dombrowski move. Of course, some of the best minor leaguers would have to be involved but since none, except Chavis, are ranked in anyone's top 100, what's to lose? I am not about to propose a specific deal. It probably would have to involve a mix of minor and major league players. The Sox have no good catcher prospects in the minors. Realmuto is cheap and under control for a couple of years. He would significantly improve the offense and would be no slouch on defense. He is exactly in his peak years. You're severely underrating Red Sox catchers. If the Red Sox have nothing to lose by giving away their prospects in that trade, the Marlins aren't trading him to Boston because the package stinks. I give this a 0% chance of happening.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 1, 2019 10:33:12 GMT -5
The Padres have a really good prospect who's a catcher - Mejia who they got from Cleveland in the Brad Hand deal. I would think he'd likely be a centerpiece of a deal for Florida. I don't think the Sox have any prospect who's in that upper tier and Swihart is more of a question mark than a prospect at this point, so I don't think there's any realistic chance they get Realmuto.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 1, 2019 11:26:16 GMT -5
You're severely underrating Red Sox catchers. Honestly, how badly can you underrate a unit that hit a collective .202/.254/.293 last year?
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 1, 2019 11:58:29 GMT -5
You're severely underrating Red Sox catchers. Honestly, how badly can you underrate a unit that hit a collective .202/.254/.293 last year? But pitch framing..
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 1, 2019 12:06:47 GMT -5
Honestly, how badly can you underrate a unit that hit a collective .202/.254/.293 last year? But pitch framing.. I know you're joking, but just to put some numbers on it, Baseball Prospectus does credit them for 21.2 pitch framing runs above average, third best in baseball. At this point however I will advise the reader to hold onto their socks lest they be knocked off by this next stat: Fangraphs rates them as (seriously, brace yourself) 54.3 runs worse than average offensively.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Feb 1, 2019 12:45:12 GMT -5
I know you're joking, but just to put some numbers on it, Baseball Prospectus does credit them for 21.2 pitch framing runs above average, third best in baseball. At this point however I will advise the reader to hold onto their socks lest they be knocked off by this next stat: Fangraphs rates them as (seriously, brace yourself) 54.3 runs worse than average offensively. Not surprised. For 4 month of the season Sandy Leon was a black hole, with 15 hits total in April, the second half of July, August, and September.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 1, 2019 13:00:27 GMT -5
I will give Vasquez credit, I know the numbers are terrible but he had some good at bats in the post season.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 1, 2019 13:11:19 GMT -5
Red Sox catchers hit .194/.246/.288 in 2018. For comparison's sake, Red Sox pitchers hit .211/.250/.316.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 1, 2019 13:41:33 GMT -5
I know you're joking, but just to put some numbers on it, Baseball Prospectus does credit them for 21.2 pitch framing runs above average, third best in baseball. At this point however I will advise the reader to hold onto their socks lest they be knocked off by this next stat: Fangraphs rates them as (seriously, brace yourself) 54.3 runs worse than average offensively. And what do they rate them for pitch calling?
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Post by soxin8 on Feb 1, 2019 14:44:02 GMT -5
Dwight Evans did everything he could to “deliver” a WS victory to the Sox in 1986. His catch in the sixth game was amazing. You can still google his 75 world series 9th inning homer off Eastwick that tied game 3 before the controversial Armbrister bunt. I was in the Metrodome July 4, 1990 for his two out, two strike, 3 run homer off Aguilera after a half dozen foul balls, just an incredible at-bat. I always thought he was a clutch player besides the walks and defense. Also, a homer in the game 7 loss to the Mets in 86. I think jimoh meant the 75 series when he mentioned the game 6 catch.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 1, 2019 15:57:18 GMT -5
And what do they rate them for pitch calling? Not sure where that's listed, or if it even is listed. In any event, pitch calling is a) impossible to quantify with any real confidence and b) not going to save anyone from -55 run offensive performance. I will give Vasquez credit, I know the numbers are terrible but he had some good at bats in the post season. Even his Steamer projection has him getting back to .256/.306/.368, which still isn't great, but it's tolerable from a good defensive catcher. The other two... yeeeesh.
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Post by orion09 on Feb 1, 2019 16:26:52 GMT -5
And what do they rate them for pitch calling? Not sure where that's listed, or if it even is listed. In any event, pitch calling is a) impossible to quantify with any real confidence and b) not going to save anyone from -55 run offensive performance. I will give Vasquez credit, I know the numbers are terrible but he had some good at bats in the post season. Even his Steamer projection has him getting back to .256/.306/.368, which still isn't great, but it's tolerable from a good defensive catcher. The other two... yeeeesh. A recent fangraphs article looked at catcher DRS, which apparently has a crude gamecalling metric baked in. They had Leon pegged as one of the top 5 defensive catchers in the game, which I find believable. But he was still at -0.5 total BWAR (even with a 0.9 defensive BWAR), which is pretty bad.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Feb 1, 2019 17:20:02 GMT -5
having 3 guys who can play catcher on the 25 man (assuming no trade) i think is a good thing. You can't just figure they are going to hit that badly again either.
Between the depth, possible trade opportunities, and likely rebound from Vasquez, potential Swihart progression...I like where the team is at going into Spring training.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Feb 1, 2019 17:23:21 GMT -5
having 3 guys who can play catcher on the 25 man (assuming no trade) i think is a good thing. You can't just figure they are going to hit that badly again either. Between the depth, possible trade opportunities, and likely rebound from Vasquez, potential Swihart progression...I like where the team is at going into Spring training. The Martinez effect. Didn’t CV join JBJ in Ca this offseason to work out with JDM’s hitting coach. Thats alot of initials, lol..
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 1, 2019 18:17:50 GMT -5
having 3 guys who can play catcher on the 25 man (assuming no trade) i think is a good thing. You can't just figure they are going to hit that badly again either. Between the depth, possible trade opportunities, and likely rebound from Vasquez, potential Swihart progression...I like where the team is at going into Spring training. I kind of disagree with you Jerry on this one. 2 catchers is enough because you need the other spaces on the 25 man roster. I find it hard to believe that any one of these three catchers are long term solutions. Swihart is probably going to be traded in spring training, Leon is just a backup, and Vazquez is arguably not even worth the money on his new current contract. Realmuto would be the best upgrade the team can possibly get outside of bullpen help maybe. It's just impossible for the Sox to land him. Maybe in free agency in 2 years they'll land Realmuto.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 1, 2019 18:20:57 GMT -5
If you have paid attention to 30 year old catchers, they don't typically last much longer than that. Lucroy was one of the best catchers in the majors a few years ago and can barely catch now at age 32. The last thing I'd do is sign someone like Realmuto to a big free agent deal.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 1, 2019 18:25:57 GMT -5
If you have paid attention to 30 year old catchers, they don't typically last much longer than that. Lucroy was one of the best catchers in the majors a few years ago and can barely catch now at age 32. The last thing I'd do is sign someone like Realmuto to a big free agent deal. Posada lasted a while. Realmuto at age 30 is probably still world's better than this current group right now.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 1, 2019 18:26:32 GMT -5
Lol I love Cora-
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danr
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Post by danr on Feb 1, 2019 18:32:27 GMT -5
It may have been discussed earlier (I have not been on the board much recently) but I think the greatest improvement that could be made to the Sox would be a trade for Realmuto. I would not be surprised if the Sox were lurking on this right now. This feels like a Dombrowski move. Of course, some of the best minor leaguers would have to be involved but since none, except Chavis, are ranked in anyone's top 100, what's to lose? I am not about to propose a specific deal. It probably would have to involve a mix of minor and major league players. The Sox have no good catcher prospects in the minors. Realmuto is cheap and under control for a couple of years. He would significantly improve the offense and would be no slouch on defense. He is exactly in his peak years. Don't you think that a package including our best minor leaguers (e.g., Chavis, Casas, Hernandez) and our expendable major leaguers (e.g., Swihart) wouldn't be enough? Or are you proposing that we trade Beni or Devers? My point was that this probably is the best thing the Sox could do to improve the team, not that it was likely to happen. To make a wild guess of what a trade might look like, I just looked at the Miami hitting and pitching stats. They are terrible and need help everywhere.They could use a trade that brings them a big haul of promising players. Certainly any trade with the Sox would include Vazquez, maybe Swihart - both of whom probably will outhit most of the players they now have. Then add a combination of upper and lower level Sox minor leaguers who are promising and look like future major leaguers - maybe not stars - but better than what Miami has now. That's my best guess. I agree that such a trade is improbable, but not entirely impossible.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 1, 2019 18:35:46 GMT -5
And what do they rate them for pitch calling? Not sure where that's listed, or if it even is listed. In any event, pitch calling is a) impossible to quantify with any real confidence and b) not going to save anyone from -55 run offensive performance. I will give Vasquez credit, I know the numbers are terrible but he had some good at bats in the post season. Even his Steamer projection has him getting back to .256/.306/.368, which still isn't great, but it's tolerable from a good defensive catcher. The other two... yeeeesh. Is Vazquez a good defensive catcher? Maybe, but highly debatable.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Feb 1, 2019 19:06:39 GMT -5
having 3 guys who can play catcher on the 25 man (assuming no trade) i think is a good thing. You can't just figure they are going to hit that badly again either. Between the depth, possible trade opportunities, and likely rebound from Vasquez, potential Swihart progression...I like where the team is at going into Spring training. I kind of disagree with you Jerry on this one. 2 catchers is enough because you need the other spaces on the 25 man roster.I find it hard to believe that any one of these three catchers are long term solutions. Swihart is probably going to be traded in spring training, Leon is just a backup, and Vazquez is arguably not even worth the money on his new current contract. Realmuto would be the best upgrade the team can possibly get outside of bullpen help maybe. It's just impossible for the Sox to land him. Maybe in free agency in 2 years they'll land Realmuto. Sure, I can see that. But the last player (likely Swihart) has some other positional value. Also, Cora proved he can manage a bench pretty successfully. A trade isn't a terrible idea, but for right now the position is pretty solid, despite severe underperformance last year.
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