SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
2018-19 Non-Red Sox Offseason Thread
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 10, 2019 20:02:11 GMT -5
This is pretty cool. He's so slick.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 11, 2019 7:51:10 GMT -5
So the Rays are already dialing back McKay's workload to probably reduce the risk of injury and/or recovery time. This has always been the risk of the pitching/hitting theme.
We will see how long Ohtani lasts doing both and/or stays healthy doing both. This is one of the reasons why I get the queezy feeling in my stomach when someone suggests a Red Sox prospect should do both. It sounds awesome on paper and provides a ton of value if someone can become the next Babe Ruth, but is it practical and can it be sustained?
All huge questions at this point.
Add- The other question is- Are the Rays kind of shooting themselves in the foot by developing McKay as both?
By all reports, McKay is a advanced power hitter. He could probably be one of their best sluggers if he was DHing like as soon as May came around this year. The Rays are ready to win now too. They have arms coming back from Tommy John surgery this year. They have serious young pitching talent throughout their staff. McKay just sounds like the type of talent that can help them right away if he wasn't pitching.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Feb 11, 2019 9:07:37 GMT -5
It sounds awesome on paper and provides a ton of value if someone can become the next Babe Ruth, but is it practical and can it be sustained? Except that Babe Ruth didn’t play as a two way player very long. Basically two years. And in those years he did not carry a full time pitching load.
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,649
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 11, 2019 9:23:16 GMT -5
It sounds awesome on paper and provides a ton of value if someone can become the next Babe Ruth, but is it practical and can it be sustained? Except that Babe Ruth didn’t play as a two way player very long. Basically two years. And in those years he did not carry a full time pitching load. Exactly. Babe Ruth was primarily a pitcher and a great one from 1914 - 1917 and then starting playing regularly in the outfield in 1918 while regularly taking a turn in the rotation but I think that his workload was scaled back some and then a bit more in 1919 when he got more regular ABs. When he got to the Yankees he limited his pitching and was the slugger we all know today, but he was rarely doing what Ohtani was trying to do last season.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 11, 2019 10:05:12 GMT -5
Except that Babe Ruth didn’t play as a two way player very long. Basically two years. And in those years he did not carry a full time pitching load. Exactly. Babe Ruth was primarily a pitcher and a great one from 1914 - 1917 and then starting playing regularly in the outfield in 1918 while regularly taking a turn in the rotation but I think that his workload was scaled back some and then a bit more in 1919 when he got more regular ABs. When he got to the Yankees he limited his pitching and was the slugger we all know today, but he was rarely doing what Ohtani was trying to do last season.Here's the thing though: Ohtani is a relevant example of what's possible for modern professional athletes, and Babe Ruth is not. I think it was Sam Miller who said the weirdest thing about Ohtani isn't that he's been successful as a two-way player, it's that no one else has done it until him. I wonder how much of that is wrapped up in the legend of Ruth; his ability as a two way player has so often been cited as a mark of historically unique greatness. If the greatest ever couldn't do both at once, obviously no one else should even try. But, Babe Ruth had roughly the same physical resemblance to today's professional athletes as he did to a water buffalo. His status as the last successful two way player may be less a mark of greatness than a historical anomaly. IMO, what Ohtani's season tells us isn't that the two-way player is necessarily a good idea, but it's an idea that should be taken a lot more seriously than it has been in the past. We don't actually know what's possible.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 11, 2019 10:31:56 GMT -5
Ohtani is an example of the risks, the guy is having TJ surgery. His pitching takes away his ability to hit. I'd have to guess he comes back as just a hitter. I mean isn't that the lesson if your that type of hitter it makes sense to hit? Were those 50 innings worth him missing a lot of games and the time he'll miss next year?
If the best modern example is a guy that pitched 50 innings, the injury limited his bat and he's now having TJ surgery I think you get why teams don't do it.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 11, 2019 10:42:14 GMT -5
Ohtani is an example of the risks, the guy is having TJ surgery. His pitching takes away his ability to hit. I'd have to guess he comes back as just a hitter. I mean isn't that the lesson if your that type of hitter it makes sense to hit? Were those 50 innings worth him missing a lot of games and the time he'll miss next year? If the best modern example is a guy that pitched 50 innings, the injury limited his bat and he's now having TJ surgery I think you get why teams don't do it. I mean, everyone has TJ all the time in baseball. Not everyone hits dingers while they're awaiting the surgery. I can see both sides on this one, but personally, Ohtani has opened the door to two-way players more than he's closed it. Were the 50 innings worth it? I don't know, what's the value of doing something no one thought could be done?
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Feb 11, 2019 10:48:45 GMT -5
Walter Johnson had a .616 OPS as a pitcher for his career in over 2500 plate appearances. He could have been a 2-way player.
Ohtani would not be a two-way player if there was not a DH.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Feb 11, 2019 12:51:32 GMT -5
We have our two-way player now!
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Feb 11, 2019 13:27:38 GMT -5
That’s a pretty big blow to the A’s. Not monetarily (he’ll return most of the money and waive the unpaid money), but it’s a loss of a top ten pick without compensation since he signed.
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,649
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 11, 2019 13:48:16 GMT -5
Some might not remember but the Sox actually did have a 2 way player, but again he didn't do it at the same time.
Ron Mahay, who I think homered in his first game with the Sox in 1995, started out as a CF. Then I think soon thereafter he converted into a LH relief pitcher and I think he was on the 1998 team (could be wrong about that, though) before he went on to Texas and Minnesota and a bunch of other places. He became a decent LOOGY when all was said and done, but he had long since put his bat away. Too bad, maybe he could have backed up in the OF in addition to being a LOOGY.
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,649
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 11, 2019 13:49:47 GMT -5
That’s a pretty big blow to the A’s. Not monetarily (he’ll return most of the money and waive the unpaid money), but it’s a loss of a top ten pick without compensation since he signed. Who knows, the A's loss might be the Patriots' gain. Maybe Kyler Murray will wind up being Tom Brady's replacement down the road? Probably not, but you never know.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 11, 2019 13:56:40 GMT -5
Ohtani is an example of the risks, the guy is having TJ surgery. His pitching takes away his ability to hit. I'd have to guess he comes back as just a hitter. I mean isn't that the lesson if your that type of hitter it makes sense to hit? Were those 50 innings worth him missing a lot of games and the time he'll miss next year? If the best modern example is a guy that pitched 50 innings, the injury limited his bat and he's now having TJ surgery I think you get why teams don't do it. I mean, everyone has TJ all the time in baseball. Not everyone hits dingers while they're awaiting the surgery. I can see both sides on this one, but personally, Ohtani has opened the door to two-way players more than he's closed it. Were the 50 innings worth it? I don't know, what's the value of doing something no one thought could be done? Isn't that the point though? You lose that bat because of pitching. I mean just my two cents but to open the door you need a guy that can do it and not get hurt. It's like he opened the door and them reminded everyone why they don't do it. You'd really need a guy that is an awesome pitcher and a good hitter. Not a guy who looked like a better hitter than pitcher. Heck even if they were equal I pick hitting. It's just a safer path, because yea everyone seems to getting TJs. What would be interesting is if you could make him a closer. Limit his innings and wear and tear. Also you would be losing the DH at the end of games. I can see that. I just think being a starter and full time bat is asking way too much. Your not getting the rest you need increasing the chance of injury.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 11, 2019 14:12:49 GMT -5
I mean, everyone has TJ all the time in baseball. Not everyone hits dingers while they're awaiting the surgery. I can see both sides on this one, but personally, Ohtani has opened the door to two-way players more than he's closed it. Were the 50 innings worth it? I don't know, what's the value of doing something no one thought could be done? Isn't that the point though? You lose that bat because of pitching. I mean just my two cents but to open the door you need a guy that can do it and not get hurt. It's like he opened the door and them reminded everyone why they don't do it.
You'd really need a guy that is an awesome pitcher and a good hitter. Not a guy who looked like a better hitter than pitcher. Heck even if they were equal I pick hitting. It's just a safer path, because yea everyone seems to getting TJs. What would be interesting is if you could make him a closer. Limit his innings and wear and tear. Also you would be losing the DH at the end of games. I can see that. I just think being a starter and full time bat is asking way too much. Your not getting the rest you need increasing the chance of injury. He would have had the TJ as a pitcher anyway. It's not even THAT rare for position players. I don't get why that's such a show stopper for you. If two-way players can't be a thing because they'll get injured... I mean, I guess just use pitching machines from now on? And as far as doing a two-way player as a reliever, sure. Reliever, piggyback guy, maybe for a guy like Ohtani you even treat him as a "big game" starter, whatever. And yeah, it's also possible that none of these things are a good idea. All I'm saying is, after what Ohtani did last year, I'm more open to the concept than I had been previously.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Feb 11, 2019 14:14:48 GMT -5
A couple things:
1. Would his WAR have been higher or lower if he just did one? If it’s higher by doing both then it’s seemingly worth it. But how does it affect the rest of the team and it’s construction? Is it more a distraction you have to work around? Are you messing up other players schedules?
2. It’s pretty silly you lose the DH for the game because you decide to let a pitcher hit. There should be an exception for that sort of thing.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 11, 2019 14:25:23 GMT -5
A couple things: 1. Would his WAR have been higher or lower if he just did one? If it’s higher by doing both then it’s seemingly worth it. But how does it affect the rest of the team and it’s construction? Is it more a distraction you have to work around? Are you messing up other players schedules? I don't know that you can ever definitively answer questions like this without actually trying it and seeing what happens.
|
|
|
Post by telson13 on Feb 11, 2019 14:44:03 GMT -5
That’s a pretty big blow to the A’s. Not monetarily (he’ll return most of the money and waive the unpaid money), but it’s a loss of a top ten pick without compensation since he signed. A bit sad to see, because he could be a very good baseball player. And, because obviously it’s aesthetically a bit of a hit for baseball to be the also-ran here. But I think it’s the smart choice for him and his family; he’s likely to earn more, more quickly, in football. And, I think his ceiling is probably substantially higher (height concerns notwithstanding). So deep down, I guess I just like the idea of the most exciting possible path, which I think he’s chosen.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Feb 11, 2019 14:51:32 GMT -5
A couple things: 1. Would his WAR have been higher or lower if he just did one? If it’s higher by doing both then it’s seemingly worth it. But how does it affect the rest of the team and it’s construction? Is it more a distraction you have to work around? Are you messing up other players schedules? I don't know that you can ever definitively answer questions like this without actually trying it and seeing what happens. I don’t have an issue with them trying it. It should be up to the player any how. He came here to do this and he left millions on the table by not waiting 2 years so whoever signed him presumably did so by telling him they’d allow it so that’s what should happen. And if they changed their mind then trade him to someone who will allow it.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Feb 11, 2019 15:31:07 GMT -5
I mean, everyone has TJ all the time in baseball. Not everyone hits dingers while they're awaiting the surgery. I can see both sides on this one, but personally, Ohtani has opened the door to two-way players more than he's closed it. Were the 50 innings worth it? I don't know, what's the value of doing something no one thought could be done? Isn't that the point though? You lose that bat because of pitching. I mean just my two cents but to open the door you need a guy that can do it and not get hurt. It's like he opened the door and them reminded everyone why they don't do it. You'd really need a guy that is an awesome pitcher and a good hitter. Not a guy who looked like a better hitter than pitcher. Heck even if they were equal I pick hitting. It's just a safer path, because yea everyone seems to getting TJs. What would be interesting is if you could make him a closer. Limit his innings and wear and tear. Also you would be losing the DH at the end of games. I can see that. I just think being a starter and full time bat is asking way too much. Your not getting the rest you need increasing the chance of injury. I think it would be far easier to manage his workload and rest if you know exactly what his schedule is as a starter. And preparing to pitch is a ritual that takes more than 10 minutes which probably means that you'd have to take him out of games before you even know if you needed to use him and you cannot even do that. What if he is the last batter or on base at the end of the 8th inning? There's no possible way for him to warm up. And using him earlier in the game removes the DH earlier in the game. I really think MLB needs to change the DH rule so that no team ever loses the DH spot no matter what they do if they want to fully use Ohtani as an effective two-way player. He's going to be limited as both a pitcher and a hitter if he tries to do both. Also, there is no way that he will ever be a full-time bat and a starter. He'd be a starter and a part time DH, maybe playing 100-120 games at most.
|
|
|
Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 11, 2019 16:01:08 GMT -5
When evaluating the hitter/pitcher 2-way player question, it's important to note whether they are a superior prospect/player as a hitter or as a pitcher.
In the National League starting pitchers hit 1-3 times each day they pitch, so asking a pitcher to DH isn't far off from what they're already being asked to do in the other league. Additionally, players rarely suffer major injuries hitting, so the risk is not particularly high.
If you have a great hitter and want to try them at pitching you are putting them at great risk of injury which could jeopardize their effectiveness or availability as a hitter. That's why normally this is only done with borderline MLB players and only in blowout situations where they aren't asked to throw their hardest or use breaking pitches.
Given the current ability of teams to call-up and send-down borderline MLB pitchers consistently, there is no reason to ever have a great hitter and ask them to pitch unless you're confident they will be a great pitcher. If the great pitcher is only above average, the value-based reward over a AAAA pitcher is not worth the risk.
In the case of Ohtani, he was principally scouted as a pitcher first and hitter second, so the Angels trying him at both made sense. But if he has a breakout year as a DH, I'm sure they will try and curtail his eagerness to pitch.
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 12, 2019 14:33:46 GMT -5
Don't want to overplay this, but the analytics guru who came from the Cards to the Astros when Luhnow became GM is now with the Orioles. Jon Meoli has an in depth look at the approach for the Baltimore Sun. Here's more insight into what they're doing at Fangraphs, trying to revive the career of Nate Karns. The days of signing up for a ride on the Chris Davis roller coaster appear to be over.
|
|
|
Post by Addam603 on Feb 12, 2019 18:17:02 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by p23w on Feb 12, 2019 18:27:16 GMT -5
Don't want to overplay this, but the analytics guru who came from the Cards to the Astros when Luhnow became GM is now with the Orioles. Jon Meoli has an in depth look at the approach for the Baltimore Sun. Here's more insight into what they're doing at Fangraphs, trying to revive the career of Nate Karns. The days of signing up for a ride on the Chris Davis roller coaster appear to be over. The Orioles are a new ownership away from contending. The hype of stat geeks, new managers, GM's notwithstanding.
|
|
|
Post by huskies15 on Feb 13, 2019 16:57:08 GMT -5
The Aaron Nola extension was a smart piece of business by the Phillies. Cost certainty over those arb years and 1 free agent year makes sense. Have to think those types of deals are easier for pitchers to accept than batters due to injury risk.
With the current state of the game I wouldn't be surprised if we see some more of these deals, esp. young pitchers.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Feb 13, 2019 21:43:27 GMT -5
I would have liked that deal for the Red Sox.
|
|
|