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2018-19 Non-Red Sox Offseason Thread
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 15, 2019 13:08:02 GMT -5
The minimum salaries for all three sports are about the same. You got guys in football making 500,000. You got guys on practice squad not getting a lot or any guaranteed money. Baseball might pay certain players less when drafted, yet spends more as a whole per year than Badketbal. Just more players in Baseball than any other sport. You can't ecpect then all to get paid. No Red Sox player made over 30 times what Vazquez made. At the same time Semi makes a fraction of what Hayward makes. Like what's the point? Every sport has this. What does Betts in his 3.3 year have to do with Sandoval? It's like comparing Tatum to Hayward, or what Trey Flowers made compared to Dwayne Allen. Young players get paid later on in every sport. Like Betts is going to make like 3-4 times what Sandoval did in his career, I just don't get it I'm all for minimum salary floors, but it can't work till you fix baseballs revenue issues. You can't have different amounts for all teams. Like you can't set the Marlins at 85 million and the Yankees at 350 million. Nola could have gambled and maybe made more like Betts. He took the safe money. It's good money. Price makes about 30 times what Vazquez makes. Every sport has this but it's wrong man, you shouldn't be paid THIRTY times what someone else is getting paid when you're both doing the same job. Like I get that Price is more valuable than Vazquez just as I get that Hayward is more valuable than Semi, but thirty times as much? That's not even cool, that's like Matt Kuchar paying a replacement caddy 10 bucks for the week and saying it was good and all and everyone knows it's bullcrap. Think too hard about sports and it gives you a headache. Players are fighting tooth and nail to get paid stupid amounts of money but it's a f*ck you got mine mentality, cry me a river about Bryce Harper but I legit feel for the MiLB guys and the rookies. That stuff is wrong. I agree with you 100% about fixing the revenue issue, you can't have a league that is both competitive and fair when you have such an enormous discrepancy between teams. It's like european soccer where everyone watches and think it's cool, but they don't think about the insane amount of human trafficking money getting laundered. This is deep and there's no easy fixes, if you don't have a competitive league people won't watch it. Ideally with young guys you'd have some kind of system that he gets rewarded for his production, like bonuses and sh*t. Like I said, I'm not a great economic mind, but how about this: unguaranteed contracts, right? But every time you cut someone, that money stops counting towards the cap but it gets added to some kind of league-wide pool. And you give out bonuses from that pool. It's beautiful, it's recycling.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 15, 2019 13:14:20 GMT -5
Guess this is just yet another thread where we either argue forever or just let umass think he's right. Nothing wrong with 10 WAR players in baseball making $550K idiots. Every sport has great players being underpaid. Tom Brady made under 300,000 when he won his first Superbowl. Betts has had the chance to sign extensions that would have paid him more sooner. All good young Baseball players have that option. He chose to go year to year to maximize his return. Why is Baseball different than Basketball or Football? Why should late round picks be paid more early in their careers? Tons of players earn way less than they are worth in the beginning of their careers. No sport pays guys off of production on rookie deals and Betts had 1.3 seasons under his belt before that year. It makes zero sense. All of that is beside the point. The issue is really simple. The system as it currently is only exists because of the old reserve clause. This is the age of data and it possible to evaluate players on their actual worth, maybe on some sort of 2 or 3 year average, and pay them accordingly. As it currently exists it can be gamed and that's what's going on. The inefficiency allows teams to extract enormous amounts of value from players when they're young. That needs to be reworked. It's not about football and it isn't about basketball. It's about the business model of baseball. It's skewed in favor of the owners. And your numbers are way off the mark. So far Betts has been paid 12.5M. He's easily been worth 15 to 20 times that to the team. Even with his arb raise, if he throws up another 10 WAR season that's maybe a quarter of his worth, and less if the team makes the playoffs again. Everyone likes to say the teams are rolling in money, and they are. The argument is about where some of that money should properly be spent. Since they are refusing to pay on the back end, how about on the guys on the front end of their careers who are helping them make it?
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,768
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Post by mobaz on Feb 15, 2019 13:15:46 GMT -5
The minimum salaries for all three sports are about the same. You got guys in football making 500,000. You got guys on practice squad not getting a lot or any guaranteed money. Baseball might pay certain players less when drafted, yet spends more as a whole per year than Badketbal. Just more players in Baseball than any other sport. You can't ecpect then all to get paid. No Red Sox player made over 30 times what Vazquez made. At the same time Semi makes a fraction of what Hayward makes. Like what's the point? Every sport has this. What does Betts in his 3.3 year have to do with Sandoval? It's like comparing Tatum to Hayward, or what Trey Flowers made compared to Dwayne Allen. Young players get paid later on in every sport. Like Betts is going to make like 3-4 times what Sandoval did in his career, I just don't get it I'm all for minimum salary floors, but it can't work till you fix baseballs revenue issues. You can't have different amounts for all teams. Like you can't set the Marlins at 85 million and the Yankees at 350 million. Nola could have gambled and maybe made more like Betts. He took the safe money. It's good money. Price makes about 30 times what Vazquez makes. Every sport has this but it's wrong man, you shouldn't be paid THIRTY times what someone else is getting paid when you're both doing the same job. Like I get that Price is more valuable than Vazquez just as I get that Hayward is more valuable than Semi, but thirty times as much? That's not even cool, that's like Matt Kuchar paying a replacement caddy 10 bucks for the week and saying it was good and all and everyone knows it's bullcrap. Think too hard about sports and it gives you a headache. Players are fighting tooth and nail to get paid stupid amounts of money but it's a f*ck you got mine mentality, cry me a river about Bryce Harper but I legit feel for the MiLB guys and the rookies. That stuff is wrong. I agree with you 100% about fixing the revenue issue, you can't have a league that is both competitive and fair when you have such an enormous discrepancy between teams. It's like european soccer where everyone watches and think it's cool, but they don't think about the insane amount of human trafficking money getting laundered. This is deep and there's no easy fixes, if you don't have a competitive league people won't watch it. Ideally with young guys you'd have some kind of system that he gets rewarded for his production, like bonuses and sh*t. Like I said, I'm not a great economic mind, but how about this: unguaranteed contracts, right? But every time you cut someone, that money stops counting towards the cap but it gets added to some kind of league-wide pool. And you give out bonuses from that pool. It's beautiful, it's recycling. NFL has a pool of "boy is that guy underpaid" funds and many guys, like UDFA or low draft picks who over perform rookie deals, get 50-400K extra pay. operations.nfl.com/updates/football-ops/nfl-announces-2017-performance-based-pay-distributions/
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 15, 2019 13:29:35 GMT -5
That's awesome, I had no idea something like this existed already. We need stuff like this. Rookies and young players on their first contracts get shafted on the promise that they will be overpaid later on and we as fans are largely okay with that, this boggles my mind.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 15, 2019 13:58:47 GMT -5
Every sport has great players being underpaid. Tom Brady made under 300,000 when he won his first Superbowl. Betts has had the chance to sign extensions that would have paid him more sooner. All good young Baseball players have that option. He chose to go year to year to maximize his return. Why is Baseball different than Basketball or Football? Why should late round picks be paid more early in their careers? Tons of players earn way less than they are worth in the beginning of their careers. No sport pays guys off of production on rookie deals and Betts had 1.3 seasons under his belt before that year. It makes zero sense. All of that is beside the point. The issue is really simple. The system as it currently is only exists because of the old reserve clause. This is the age of data and it possible to evaluate players on their actual worth, maybe on some sort of 2 or 3 year average, and pay them accordingly. As it currently exists it can be gamed and that's what's going on. The inefficiency allows teams to extract enormous amounts of value from players when they're young. That needs to be reworked. It's not about football and it isn't about basketball. It's about the business model of baseball. It's skewed in favor of the owners. And your numbers are way off the mark. So far Betts has been paid 12.5M. He's easily been worth 15 to 20 times that to the team. Even with his arb raise, if he throws up another 10 WAR season that's maybe a quarter of his worth, and less if the team makes the playoffs again. Everyone likes to say the teams are rolling in money, and they are. The argument is about where some of that money should properly be spent. Since they are refusing to pay on the back end, how about on the guys on the front end of their careers who are helping them make it? He has made 13.28 million counting his signing bonus, but not minor league pay, by the end of this year it will be 33.28 million. Not way off. You can certainly believe that because of data rookie level contracts shouldn't be a thing, but that will never happen. Football and Basketball, heck even Hockey matters because you want to do something that no one does. I have zero issue if you want to reduce the years of team control, give out some bonuses, stop teams from keeping players in the minors. You will never have a system that pays a player in his second full year his true worth. Your basically talking about arbitration for all players every year. What in the world are small market teams going to do if they get a bunch of great young players? Literally go bankrupt? Talk about a model that makes zero sense from a business point of view. This has crossed into crazy talk and makes zero sense. I'm all for ideas, but paying players their true worth is comical. You were the one saying guys were worth like 50 to 80 million a year right? Explain how that works? I thought the idea was to fix Baseball not destroy it.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 15, 2019 14:12:25 GMT -5
"And your numbers are way off the mark. So far Betts has been paid 12.5M. He's easily been worth 15 to 20 times that to the team."
"He has made 13.28 million counting his signing bonus, but not minor league pay, by the end of this year it will be 33.28 million. Not way off."
Hmmm, so $13.28 million is not way off from $187.5M - $250M?
Common Core math. Or maybe the minor league pay makes it way closer.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 15, 2019 14:15:56 GMT -5
Literally no one has said it should be his true worth so you can stop saying that right now. The team needs to pay the freight: scouting, FO, field staff, facilities,... and so on. I understand that. But Betts has been paid somewhere in the vicinity of 5% to 6% of his value. That's a long way from a fair share.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 15, 2019 14:21:40 GMT -5
33.28, plus the 30 million he likely gets next year. Then his future contract of 200 plus million. The guy is going to make a crap load of money in his career. But yea let's worry about what he made in his 2nd full season. He's also likely going to be overpaid by the end of that next deal. It's the way it works in all sports. You get underpaid, then overpaid.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 15, 2019 14:31:49 GMT -5
33.28, plus the 30 million he likely gets next year. Then his future contract of 200 plus million. The guy is going to make a crap load of money in his career. But yea let's worry about what he made in his 2nd full season. He's also likely going to be overpaid by the end of that next deal. It's the way it works in all sports. You get underpaid, then overpaid. It's an extreme example that extends to all players, some of which NEVER get paid anywhere close to what they were worth. And again, we're also talking about Mookie making money when he deserves it most, not when he's in decline and no longer worth anything close to what he's making. Is there ever a point that anyone makes that might change your mind about any single subject? Is there a point that you can agree to allow others to have when you don't agree? Or are you just going to f*cking argue about everything with everyone forever? Sorry mods, I'm done, but don't bother chastising me about it. Just ban me instead if you want this guy here dominating every discussion instead of me who has mostly changed to back off after a few posts. I post a lot, but I don't argue with everyone about everything.
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 15, 2019 14:46:18 GMT -5
Sorry mods, I'm done, but don't bother chastising me about it. Just ban me instead if you want this guy here dominating every discussion instead of me who has mostly changed to back off after a few posts. I post a lot, but I don't argue with everyone about everything. Come on man, umass is a nice dude and a knowledgeable poster. We all get heated up from time to time but remember, regardless of how much each player is making, we're getting paid exactly zero dollars here lol so let's not get too carried away. And like Schopenhauer once said, "almost all of our sorrows spring out of our relations with other people" - it's tough but we can work it out.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 15, 2019 14:49:29 GMT -5
Sorry mods, I'm done, but don't bother chastising me about it. Just ban me instead if you want this guy here dominating every discussion instead of me who has mostly changed to back off after a few posts. I post a lot, but I don't argue with everyone about everything. Come on man, umass is a nice dude and a knowledgeable poster. We all get heated up from time to time but remember, regardless of how much each player is making, we're getting paid exactly zero dollars here lol so let's not get too carried away. And like Schopenhauer once said, "almost all of our sorrows spring out of our relations with other people" - it's tough but we can work it out. I said I'm done sir! (said in a Willy Wonka voice)
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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 15, 2019 14:59:20 GMT -5
Was reading through the thread ready to post the same thing as it makes a lot of sense and the owners wouldn't force a work stoppage to avoid it. You beat me to it. Unfortunately there is a big issue on the matter which hasn't been addressed. Below are a rough grouping of players employed by major league baseball teams: 1. Minor League players who can make under minimum wage - The union doesn't care about them at all 2. Early major league players in their first 3-6 years - the union cares about them, but only a little 3. Players with 7+ years experience - this is the base of long-term union employees and the group the union most cares about At the end of the day, the union cares most about it's long-time constituents who are their strongest members, so the rest of them get screwed over. The owners don't care about the distribution of wealth - only their piece of the pie. (also, there needs to be some advantage taken over young players to pay for the player development systems - just not to this degree)
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 15, 2019 15:39:45 GMT -5
Sorry mods, I'm done, but don't bother chastising me about it. Just ban me instead if you want this guy here dominating every discussion instead of me who has mostly changed to back off after a few posts. I post a lot, but I don't argue with everyone about everything. Come on man, umass is a nice dude and a knowledgeable poster. We all get heated up from time to time but remember, regardless of how much each player is making, we're getting paid exactly zero dollars here lol so let's not get too carried away. And like Schopenhauer once said, "almost all of our sorrows spring out of our relations with other people" - it's tough but we can work it out. Reality check. Like many, many people, I live paycheck to paycheck and barely that. Getting worked up over millionaires and billionaires and if they're getting paid equitably is laughably stupid and a big waste of time in my honest opinion. Got bigger things to worry about than if the multi-millionaires are getting screwed over by the multi-billionaires. Proportion, people.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 15, 2019 15:41:02 GMT -5
33.28, plus the 30 million he likely gets next year. Then his future contract of 200 plus million. The guy is going to make a crap load of money in his career. But yea let's worry about what he made in his 2nd full season. He's also likely going to be overpaid by the end of that next deal. It's the way it works in all sports. You get underpaid, then overpaid. Establishing that the status quo exists is not the same thing as establishing that it should remain unchanged.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 15, 2019 16:31:47 GMT -5
I don’t understand the sentiment that baseballs players have to wait years after being drafted to start getting paid.... if they are good enough then they don’t and if they aren’t good enough then they aren’t MLB players... you know what happens when you come into the NFL and aren’t good enough? I guess you go to Canada and if not good enough for that you go back to your home town and get a job.... in the NBA you go over seas or get a real job. Counting a players minor time as waiting time is silly; other than a few situations a year where teams manipulate a few months of service time players get to MLB when ready and that’s when the discussion should be starting... Mookie made the majors once he was able to play in the majors.
Minor league pay is a different discussion.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 15, 2019 17:02:40 GMT -5
No one has mentioned that Severino signed an extension? 4/42.75M or 5/55M, club option.
Also, just got a phone notification from mlb that Harper may have picked a team.
edit -
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 15, 2019 17:52:16 GMT -5
I hate when the Yankees make good deals for their franchise. Whether or not Severino is a huge TJ surgery risk in the future is one thing, but that's a awesome deal for the Yankees regardless.
Also who the F is Chris Russell? LOL
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 15, 2019 18:02:34 GMT -5
I hate when the Yankees make good deals for their franchise. Whether or not Severino is a huge TJ surgery risk in the future is one thing, but that's a awesome deal for the Yankees regardless. Also who the F is Chris Russell? LOL Hey! It's on Twitter! lol
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Post by bluechip on Feb 15, 2019 18:46:04 GMT -5
I don’t understand the sentiment that baseballs players have to wait years after being drafted to start getting paid.... if they are good enough then they don’t and if they aren’t good enough then they aren’t MLB players... you know what happens when you come into the NFL and aren’t good enough? I guess you go to Canada and if not good enough for that you go back to your home town and get a job.... in the NBA you go over seas or get a real job. Counting a players minor time as waiting time is silly; other than a few situations a year where teams manipulate a few months of service time players get to MLB when ready and that’s when the discussion should be starting... Mookie made the majors once he was able to play in the majors. Minor league pay is a different discussion. Only first round picks make money immediately. Late round picks and undrafted guys get paid nothing for a while. Then they become restricted free agents. MLB players make way more than anyone except the best qbs can ever expect to make.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 15, 2019 21:40:59 GMT -5
I don’t understand the sentiment that baseballs players have to wait years after being drafted to start getting paid.... if they are good enough then they don’t and if they aren’t good enough then they aren’t MLB players... you know what happens when you come into the NFL and aren’t good enough? I guess you go to Canada and if not good enough for that you go back to your home town and get a job.... in the NBA you go over seas or get a real job. Counting a players minor time as waiting time is silly; other than a few situations a year where teams manipulate a few months of service time players get to MLB when ready and that’s when the discussion should be starting... Mookie made the majors once he was able to play in the majors. Minor league pay is a different discussion. Only first round picks make money immediately. Late round picks and undrafted guys get paid nothing for a while. Then they become restricted free agents. MLB players make way more than anyone except the best qbs can ever expect to make. Right but they aren’t being drafted to play right away like the other sports are. Even most first round picks barely contribute to major league teams
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 15, 2019 22:14:38 GMT -5
No one has mentioned that Severino signed an extension? 4/42.75M or 5/55M, club option. That's such a good deal for the MFY. That's what my brain is telling me, my heart on the other hand wants me to believe that Seve looking terrible later on the season was due to guys figuring him out and him being unable to adjust.
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Post by mredsox89 on Feb 15, 2019 22:28:57 GMT -5
It's certainly a solid deal for the Yankees, but it's not super crazy good, as it's buying out all four of his arbitration years. I know he's much younger than DeGrom, but the salary system in place still doesn't impact it all that much
Compare it to DeGrom, who also is a four-year arbitration guy
A1: 4.05M A2: 7.04M A3: 17.0 M A4: TBD, 2020
So that's $28M plus probably somewhere between 20 and 25 for year four if he's not extended. The club option is where it could become a $10+M surplus for the Yankees. So they've basically traded out the risk of him potentially getting hurt for some surplus in potentially year 5, and maybe slightly in year 4 of the deal.
Again, it's a good deal, and I'd for sure like it if it was a Sox player in the same spot. But once again, he wasn't going to be paid like a top end starter because the current salary system sucks
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Post by bluechip on Feb 16, 2019 6:42:30 GMT -5
Only first round picks make money immediately. Late round picks and undrafted guys get paid nothing for a while. Then they become restricted free agents. MLB players make way more than anyone except the best qbs can ever expect to make. Right but they aren’t being drafted to play right away like the other sports are. Even most first round picks barely contribute to major league teams I was talking about the NFL. Mid to late round picks in the NFL are being drafted to play immediately and make very little money. VERY little. Look at undrafted free agent Malcolm Butler. In 2014 (the year he sealed the Super bowl) he made 420k. 2015: $829,282. 2016: $968,881. 2017: $3,910,000. Then he became a free agent. Joe Thuney, a third round pick (78 overall). The starter on three straight Super Bowl teams. His rookie contract:4 yr(s) / $3,213,428. That includes his signing bonus. All sports underpay young players. Even the NBA pays players far less than they are worth for the first years of their career (due to the nature of the sport it’s still a lot more than MLB and NFL rookies make). Why is that? One: players not in the league aren’t union members, so their interests are not represented adequately. Two: Marvin Miller in negotiating free agency decided that it was better for his members if there wasn’t a glut of free agents suddenly available driving up supply and flooding the market. Three: teams obviously have interest in paying players less. Four: it puts incentives on teams to develop players (why would teams waste money and years helping a late round pick develop a curve ball or hit the curve, etc if some other team will swoop in and sign him before he helps their team).
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Post by telson13 on Feb 16, 2019 21:54:00 GMT -5
I've never heard of a left handed Knuckleball before. Anyone else ever see one? Must be more rare than seeing a screwball, a pitch I have only seen thrown by one major leaguer (I wasn't old enough to watch Fernando Venezuela). Me either. That’s gonna be interesting to see. I’m excited to see Honeywell’s screwball, too. I just love weird pitches. I saw a few from Valenzuela, but I was really young. I didn’t get the rarity.
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Post by flasox27 on Feb 17, 2019 6:25:48 GMT -5
Wilbur Wood for the White Sox
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