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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 12:53:34 GMT -5
Seriously. You people realize that if you open all your presents early, Christmas day is going to be awful boring, right? I was having a ton of fun in the 2004 off-season. That off-season was over in weeks and my parents bought me merchandise and 2 games in season because of the off-season. Talked about getting Schilling and the combination of Foulke for weeks. I can't speak for everyone else, but the hype makes it awesome. So you want the Red Sox to entertain you in the offseason, not do what is best to prepare for the next season? Just make big moves for the hell of it? That's the kind of garbage that makes the team wind up with Carl Crawford. The 2010 offseason sure was fun wasn't it? The Sox should have hired DiPoto instead, just to make you happier in the offseason. So sorry that the very recent memories of a World Championship aren't good enough for you. I can't even comprehend this line of thinking at all. I can't even imagine what kind of fan you were before 2004.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 12:54:45 GMT -5
No no, don't undercut yourself, I'm sure it was all about obscure CBA rules governing the timing of offseason transactions. That's how you make the real money.
I don't know. People decided this was a problem like a year ago. If you have any actual data that shows that it is, fine. Otherwise it seems like a pretty pointless debate. I'd be thrilled to actually have an intelligent, useful conversation on this topic if you're willing. Let's open here: www.newsweek.com/no-longer-americas-game-2018-world-series-ratings-drop-over-20-percent-1194853Feel free to give your actual data to refute why this isn't a concern at all. I'd ask that you refrain from your standard 'sarcastic comment - you need to prove this but I don't - therefore I'm right' template posts. If you aren't entertained by championships, you sure as hell aren't going to be entertained by big moves made for the sake of making big moves. Offseason excitement is about the millionth most important aspect of the popularity of baseball.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 28, 2018 12:59:17 GMT -5
If you aren't entertained by championships, you sure as hell aren't going to be entertained by big moves made for the sake of making big moves. Personally I am very happy with championships, and am just as big a fan as ever. I'm on here posting with you, right? My input is directed specifically at the self-inflicted wounds MLB is creating with its marketing, and how aligning it with the 2 sports who are clearly better at it would help to solve some of the game's looming problems.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 13:03:01 GMT -5
If you aren't entertained by championships, you sure as hell aren't going to be entertained by big moves made for the sake of making big moves. Personally I am very happy with championships, and am just as big a fan as ever. I'm on here posting with you, right? My input is directed specifically at the self-inflicted wounds MLB is creating with its marketing, and how aligning it with the 2 sports who are clearly better at it would help to solve some of the game's looming problems. I'd love to hear what kind of marketing would increase excitement in a sustained way all throughout the 5 month offseason of baseball and lead to higher World Series ratings. Harper and Machado are getting signed exactly one time this offseason. If they get signed in November or March, it does not change that. If they're signed in November, there will not be 4 months of daily chatter about it to follow. There will be about a week. Baseball is not at all like other sports and should not be marketed the same way. There are no star players in baseball that have anywhere close to the same impact as in football or basketball. Signing Harper or Machado is nothing like signing Lebron James. One of the best players of all-time is stuck on a mediocre Angels team because one player cannot win by themselves. The draft is never going to be exciting because all the players drafted are 3-5 years away from being ready for the majors. Free agency just isn't exciting period.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 28, 2018 13:08:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure why this is so hard for some to understand. The NFL has gone to great lengths to make the NFL a full year entertainment type thing. They have talked about it in detail, yet a bunch of you think that concept is crazy. Baseball has a crazy long season, it should be crazy easy for them.
Two steps move the draft to the offseason and fix this free agent mess. Then spend time pumping up the draft to make it an event like other sports do. Nfl and NBA combines for example. You get a few months of draft coverage in other sports. The MLB draft gets almost nothing, its horrible. Nevermind why in the world have a draft when players are still playing games? It makes zero sense. That is the MLB though.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 28, 2018 13:14:22 GMT -5
If you aren't entertained by championships, you sure as hell aren't going to be entertained by big moves made for the sake of making big moves. Not to mention that big signings don't always work and that's putting it nicely. Every league has had its fair share of "offseason champions" and it sucks. It might be nice for 3 weeks, but then it's bad for 3 years. While the lack of drama could be seen as sort of boring and the decline in player salary could eventually lead to some complications, I love that the teams are getting smarter. It sure beats Isiah Thomas signing Jerome James and Jarred Jeffries to big contracts.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 13:14:59 GMT -5
I'm not sure why this is so hard for some to understand. The NFL has gone to great lengths to make the NFL a full year entertainment type thing. They have talked about it in detail, yet a bunch of you think that concept is crazy. Baseball has a crazy long season, it should be crazy easy for them. Two steps move the draft to the offseason and fix this free agent mess. Then spend time pumping up the draft to make it an event like other sports do. Nfl and NBA combines for example. You get a few months of draft coverage in other sports. The MLB draft gets almost nothing, its horrible. Nevermind why in the world have a draft when players are still playing games? It makes zero sense. That is the MLB though. Yeah, maybe they should have a draft lottery so we can be exposed to the excitement of being able to draft Mark Appel at first overall instead of Trey Ball if they won the lottery. If you can't see the difference between the NBA, NFL draft and the MLB draft, I'm not sure what to tell you. There is nothing that can be done to make the MLB draft more exciting because no one being drafted is anywhere close to being ready for the majors. Other leagues don't have 6-7 different levels of minor leagues just to prepare for the major one. Baseball is the hardest sport to learn of all. It takes the most practice of all. Having the most athletic ability means almost nothing in baseball. That's why the draft cannot ever be exciting, because 90% of the development comes after the draft. Unlike in football and basketball where there is almost none in comparison.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 28, 2018 13:17:54 GMT -5
Seriously. You people realize that if you open all your presents early, Christmas day is going to be awful boring, right? I was having a ton of fun in the 2004 off-season. That off-season was over in weeks and my parents bought me merchandise and 2 games in season because of the off-season. Talked about getting Schilling and the combination of Foulke for weeks. I can't speak for everyone else, but the hype makes it awesome. Yeah, definitely no other factors at play in '04 that would have caused Red Sox fans to be unusually excited.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 28, 2018 13:20:30 GMT -5
I'd add that the Day 2 and 3 players drafted into the NFL are also years away, yet ratings are still good when the 'development' players get picked.
Really you don't think there'd be more interest in an MLB offseason draft even though players are years away? Yeah its not 100% the same as other sports, but the similarities are greater than the differences.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 28, 2018 13:22:17 GMT -5
No no, don't undercut yourself, I'm sure it was all about obscure CBA rules governing the timing of offseason transactions. That's how you make the real money.
I don't know. People decided this was a problem like a year ago. If you have any actual data that shows that it is, fine. Otherwise it seems like a pretty pointless debate. I'd be thrilled to actually have an intelligent, useful conversation on this topic if you're willing. Let's open here: www.newsweek.com/no-longer-americas-game-2018-world-series-ratings-drop-over-20-percent-1194853Feel free to give your actual data to refute why this isn't a concern at all. I'd ask that you refrain from your standard 'sarcastic comment - you need to prove this but I don't - therefore I'm right' template posts. We're talking about the long wait for free agent signings to happen. Are you seriously contending that the World Series would have had better ratings if JD Martinez had signed in December?
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 13:24:06 GMT -5
I'd add that the Day 2 and 3 players drafted into the NFL are also years away, yet ratings are still good when the 'development' players get picked. Really you don't think there'd be more interest in an MLB offseason draft even though players are years away? Yeah its not 100% the same as other sports, but the similarities are greater than the differences. The only people who watch drafts are diehard fans and that's always going to be the case. In football, you also have hardcore fantasy football players. The average Patriots fan wouldn't be able to tell you that they drafted Sony Michel in the first round this year. They just watch 10 games a year when they're winning.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 13:26:08 GMT -5
If MLB wanted to improve World Series ratings, they'd make it so the series was always artificially longer than it would have been. People tune in for game 7s. Is that how MLB should proceed or should it remain a fair game free from outside influence?
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 28, 2018 13:28:56 GMT -5
We're talking about the long wait for free agent signings to happen. Are you seriously contending that the World Series would have had better ratings if JD Martinez had signed in December? Is that seriously the effort you're putting into your counterargument? Can you please spend more than 5 seconds on your posts? Or read up the thread a little?
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Post by beasleyrockah on Dec 28, 2018 13:30:56 GMT -5
I'd add that the Day 2 and 3 players drafted into the NFL are also years away, yet ratings are still good when the 'development' players get picked. Really you don't think there'd be more interest in an MLB offseason draft even though players are years away? Yeah its not 100% the same as other sports, but the similarities are greater than the differences. Strong disagreement here. College football and basketball are extremely popular, college/high school baseball is not.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 13:31:23 GMT -5
We're talking about the long wait for free agent signings to happen. Are you seriously contending that the World Series would have had better ratings if JD Martinez had signed in December? Is that seriously the effort you're putting into your counterargument? Can you please spend more than 5 seconds on your posts? Or read up the thread a little? It did start because of the complaints of the offseason moving too slowly. In reality, there is nothing that can be done to make 5 months move faster.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 28, 2018 13:34:06 GMT -5
Is that seriously the effort you're putting into your counterargument? Can you please spend more than 5 seconds on your posts? Or read up the thread a little? It did start because of the complaints of the offseason moving too slowly. In reality, there is nothing that can be done to make 5 months move faster. From my post above, for context.
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Post by iakovos11 on Dec 28, 2018 13:42:02 GMT -5
I'm not sure why this is so hard for some to understand. The NFL has gone to great lengths to make the NFL a full year entertainment type thing. They have talked about it in detail, yet a bunch of you think that concept is crazy. Baseball has a crazy long season, it should be crazy easy for them. Two steps move the draft to the offseason and fix this free agent mess. Then spend time pumping up the draft to make it an event like other sports do. Nfl and NBA combines for example. You get a few months of draft coverage in other sports. The MLB draft gets almost nothing, its horrible. Nevermind why in the world have a draft when players are still playing games? It makes zero sense. That is the MLB though. I can't see MLB draft becoming more popular among non-fanatics and those with certain special interests because 1/2 the guys are high schoolers that almost nobody has heard of and the half are college guys that slightly more than nobody has heard of. NBA and NFL are drafting guys that get lots of tv time with college football and bowl season and the NCAA basketball season + March Madness. There is just not the same level of interest in amateur baseball. Moving the draft or the draft in general has zero to do with the reduced interest in MLB. And neither does the pace of the offseason. Honestly, the younger generation is harder to keep entertained in school because there is so much screen time and entertainment at every turn. Baseball is the same. It's a slower moving game. It's going to be harder to keep the attention of the newer generation. At least basketball, football (yes, in fits and starts), soccer, and lacrosse move faster.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 28, 2018 13:44:00 GMT -5
I'm not sure why this is so hard for some to understand. The NFL has gone to great lengths to make the NFL a full year entertainment type thing. They have talked about it in detail, yet a bunch of you think that concept is crazy. Baseball has a crazy long season, it should be crazy easy for them. Two steps move the draft to the offseason and fix this free agent mess. Then spend time pumping up the draft to make it an event like other sports do. Nfl and NBA combines for example. You get a few months of draft coverage in other sports. The MLB draft gets almost nothing, its horrible. Nevermind why in the world have a draft when players are still playing games? It makes zero sense. That is the MLB though. Yeah, maybe they should have a draft lottery so we can be exposed to the excitement of being able to draft Mark Appel at first overall instead of Trey Ball if they won the lottery. If you can't see the difference between the NBA, NFL draft and the MLB draft, I'm not sure what to tell you. There is nothing that can be done to make the MLB draft more exciting because no one being drafted is anywhere close to being ready for the majors. Other leagues don't have 6-7 different levels of minor leagues just to prepare for the major one. Baseball is the hardest sport to learn of all. It takes the most practice of all. Having the most athletic ability means almost nothing in baseball. That's why the draft cannot ever be exciting, because 90% of the development comes after the draft. Unlike in football and basketball where there is almost none in comparison. Everything you said just isn't true! Fans love the draft to see their future stars, not because a player can play right away. Kinda hard to argue your point when thousands of red sox fans debate the draft and our prospects on this site alone. You likely can't make it equal to the NFL or NBA, but you can make it an event that people watch and talk about. As compared to the almost nothing it is today. The NHL draft is much more of an event and those guys aren't ready and spend years in the minors. Heck I bet close to 3/4 of the NBA players drafted this year will spend some time in the G league. The fact that Robert Williams isn't ready doesn't make the NBA draft any less fun. Or the fact that when the Celtics took Rozier and we hardly got to see him play as a rookie. People tune in because those sports pump up the draft for months as much watch TV. MLB does litterally nothing!
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 28, 2018 13:50:09 GMT -5
We're talking about the long wait for free agent signings to happen. Are you seriously contending that the World Series would have had better ratings if JD Martinez had signed in December? Is that seriously the effort you're putting into your counterargument? Can you please spend more than 5 seconds on your posts? Or read up the thread a little? Protip: when I ask a simple question, I am not "making a counter-arguement". I am asking a simple question.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 28, 2018 13:56:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure why this is so hard for some to understand. The NFL has gone to great lengths to make the NFL a full year entertainment type thing. They have talked about it in detail, yet a bunch of you think that concept is crazy. Baseball has a crazy long season, it should be crazy easy for them. Two steps move the draft to the offseason and fix this free agent mess. Then spend time pumping up the draft to make it an event like other sports do. Nfl and NBA combines for example. You get a few months of draft coverage in other sports. The MLB draft gets almost nothing, its horrible. Nevermind why in the world have a draft when players are still playing games? It makes zero sense. That is the MLB though. I can't see MLB draft becoming more popular among non-fanatics and those with certain special interests because 1/2 the guys are high schoolers that almost nobody has heard of and the half are college guys that slightly more than nobody has heard of. NBA and NFL are drafting guys that get lots of tv time with college football and bowl season and the NCAA basketball season + March Madness. There is just not the same level of interest in amateur baseball. Moving the draft or the draft in general has zero to do with the reduced interest in MLB. And neither does the pace of the offseason. Honestly, the younger generation is harder to keep entertained in school because there is so much screen time and entertainment at every turn. Baseball is the same. It's a slower moving game. It's going to be harder to keep the attention of the newer generation. At least basketball, football (yes, in fits and starts), soccer, and lacrosse move faster. Why was LeBron James known to the world before even playing a single NBA game? He was pumped up for years. MLB needs to do a better job of doing that. Look at the the young kids playing Baseball and the young adults playing it in College. Isn't Baseball still the #1 played sport out of the major US sports? The audience is there they just do nothing to promote it. The MLB needs to do a better job pumping up future players and heck College Baseball in general. NBA, NFL, and NHL have year long draft coverage, the MLB doesn't. I'd agree with you if I hadn't watched the NFL make the NFL draft what it is today over decades. To this day they are still trying to make it better and more entertaining. They won't likely ever reach the NFL level, but they can make it an event, unlike the after thought it is today.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2018 14:26:58 GMT -5
I was having a ton of fun in the 2004 off-season. That off-season was over in weeks and my parents bought me merchandise and 2 games in season because of the off-season. Talked about getting Schilling and the combination of Foulke for weeks. I can't speak for everyone else, but the hype makes it awesome. So you want the Red Sox to entertain you in the offseason, not do what is best to prepare for the next season? Just make big moves for the hell of it? That's the kind of garbage that makes the team wind up with Carl Crawford. The 2010 offseason sure was fun wasn't it? The Sox should have hired DiPoto instead, just to make you happier in the offseason. So sorry that the very recent memories of a World Championship aren't good enough for you. I can't even comprehend this line of thinking at all. I can't even imagine what kind of fan you were before 2004. No go back to my second post on this subject- I specifically said "Not every off-season can be like that for the Sox, but it should be like that for at least 3 teams this winter or something like that." No one is splurging here. That's the problem. Yes it's dull. Yes sports is a entertainment.
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Post by jmei on Dec 28, 2018 14:31:39 GMT -5
No no, don't undercut yourself, I'm sure it was all about obscure CBA rules governing the timing of offseason transactions. That's how you make the real money.
I don't know. People decided this was a problem like a year ago. If you have any actual data that shows that it is, fine. Otherwise it seems like a pretty pointless debate. I'd be thrilled to actually have an intelligent, useful conversation on this topic if you're willing. Let's open here: www.newsweek.com/no-longer-americas-game-2018-world-series-ratings-drop-over-20-percent-1194853Feel free to give your actual data to refute why this isn't a concern at all. I'd ask that you refrain from your standard 'sarcastic comment - you need to prove this but I don't - therefore I'm right' template posts. Ratings for all TV programs are down. Fewer people have cable subscriptions and those viewership numbers don’t include digital sources. Relative to the new normal in terms of TV viewership, the World Series did just fine: www.fangraphs.com/blogs/those-disastrous-world-series-tv-ratings/
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 14:44:48 GMT -5
From that newsweek article, streaming was up 40% from 2017 to 2018.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 14:47:10 GMT -5
Yeah, maybe they should have a draft lottery so we can be exposed to the excitement of being able to draft Mark Appel at first overall instead of Trey Ball if they won the lottery. If you can't see the difference between the NBA, NFL draft and the MLB draft, I'm not sure what to tell you. There is nothing that can be done to make the MLB draft more exciting because no one being drafted is anywhere close to being ready for the majors. Other leagues don't have 6-7 different levels of minor leagues just to prepare for the major one. Baseball is the hardest sport to learn of all. It takes the most practice of all. Having the most athletic ability means almost nothing in baseball. That's why the draft cannot ever be exciting, because 90% of the development comes after the draft. Unlike in football and basketball where there is almost none in comparison. Everything you said just isn't true! Fans love the draft to see their future stars, not because a player can play right away. Kinda hard to argue your point when thousands of red sox fans debate the draft and our prospects on this site alone. You likely can't make it equal to the NFL or NBA, but you can make it an event that people watch and talk about. As compared to the almost nothing it is today. The NHL draft is much more of an event and those guys aren't ready and spend years in the minors. Heck I bet close to 3/4 of the NBA players drafted this year will spend some time in the G league. The fact that Robert Williams isn't ready doesn't make the NBA draft any less fun. Or the fact that when the Celtics took Rozier and we hardly got to see him play as a rookie. People tune in because those sports pump up the draft for months as much watch TV. MLB does litterally nothing! Most 'future stars' in MLB are complete busts. That's why I made the Mark Appel point who was drafted 1st overall in 2013 and is likely never going to pitch in the majors. No matter how much you hype these guys, fans aren't dumb enough to fall for it year after year. This board is not made up of typical fans. Typical fans which the league supposedly has to cater to in order for them to have any interest in our favorite sport watch some games when their team is playing well. They do not follow prospects or the draft or every inning of every game like we do. We are the diehard fans, who are ignored when baseball does something to try to lure new fans with dumb gimmicks like pitch clocks and eliminating shifts and changing the baseball so that players hit home runs like it's a video game. Maybe they can decide extra inning games with a home run derby next. For me, I'm perfectly fine with MLB ignoring these people with short attention spans. Baseball will never die. It's only the stupid, stupid money that will die.
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Post by gerry on Dec 28, 2018 15:00:36 GMT -5
If MLB wanted to improve World Series ratings, they'd make it so the series was always artificially longer than it would have been. People tune in for game 7s. Is that how MLB should proceed or should it remain a fair game free from outside influence? No question it should remain free from outside influences, though TV has inserted itself into games in, IMO, unfavorable ways. One of the discussions on the ARod round table, above, dealt with baseball being more a regional sport with regional heroes, as opposed to nationally known NBA stars like MJ, as though that hurts its popularity. Not so. 30 local MLB teams + 200 or so miLB teams + plenary ST gathering in FL and AZ + independent leagues + college, high school + Little League, Pony League and Park Leagues, etc. + national awards like MVP, Cy, GG, SS enhance both regional and national fandoms in the USA alone. Without even considering its international status, what a network to build loyalty upon. Yet, despite 11 months of actual MLB activity from February through October and FA interest deep into December, most “marketing” efforts really are pretty weak. To JimEds point, there is plenty of room to enhance the popularity and base of the sport nationally and regionally while maintaining its independence. No other sport has those 11 months of activity, nor 200+ professional baseball teams so why not maximize them. Examples: MLB has plenty of $$ for this and would be wise to use it. The RBI program was a small first step which could be greatly expanded to more inner cities and beyond inner cities, right now. The Red Sox Foundation has already set a high bar with its many programs which interface with high schools, colleges, medical and other services. A large warchest from MLB and local MLB teams could replicate this now, creating similar community support. So the model is in place, uniquely based on Tip O’Neill’s famous “all politics is local” theory. MLB would benefit from doing much, much more of this. So here is one of a dozen do-able ideas to grow baseball now. Fully involve MLB and miLB players, including giving them stipends/per diems for this extra work (at least the minor leaguers) , as ambassadors to invigorate high school and college baseball around New England, by throwing out the first pitch and schmooz with the teams, with appropriate local media coverage. There are wonderful stories about players and coaches at every single school, that the schools would love to share with the player ambassadors and the media. Invite the schools to request involvement. Among Boston, Pawtucket/Worcester, Portland and Lowell more than 100 players and coaches, at 3 visits per year each, would reach more than 300 schools and colleges each year, increasing attendance at games, and growing the Fanbase for all four teams, while generating more than 1,000 articles in local and regional print media plus TV/Radio/internet coverage. The other sports simply can’t do this local/regional approach to grow the sport, and the message is by, for and about baseball. Anyone else care to donate ideas to MLB to keep baseball as America’s pastime ... besides paying Minor Leaguers properly and equalizing MLB salaries?
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