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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Dec 28, 2018 17:12:42 GMT -5
A long offseason where nothing happens at all between the first week in December and the beginning of March would also kill interest. There are the same number of things that happen every offseason. There is no amount of hype that can carry through the entire 12 months of the year no matter what you do. You guys are nuts. If everything in the offseason happened in just one week, the other 4 months would be pretty brutal. You must not follow the NBA. Edit: ah, this was mentioned before. Serves me right for joining the party late.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 17:27:44 GMT -5
A long offseason where nothing happens at all between the first week in December and the beginning of March would also kill interest. There are the same number of things that happen every offseason. There is no amount of hype that can carry through the entire 12 months of the year no matter what you do. You guys are nuts. If everything in the offseason happened in just one week, the other 4 months would be pretty brutal. You must not follow the NBA. Edit: ah, this was mentioned before. Serves me right for joining the party late. The NBA can pull it off because individual star players can make a team contend no matter how bad they are. Doesn't work that way in baseball at all. And the way the NBA does it makes me less likely to watch, not more. (which is admittedly irrelevant)
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 17:34:32 GMT -5
Would also love to hear theories on how to condense free agency into a specified time period without forcing owners to spend more than they want to on players they might not want and also forcing players to accept contracts that they might not want to sign. I see exactly zero sides remotely interested in doing that.
If you come up with a 'max contract' suggestion, then you're giving money to the owners at the expense of the players. And you're also making it much harder for lower revenue teams to compete, so that's not ever going to be on the table either.
These are the issues you face in a sport with an incredibly long season where local tv contracts dwarf the national ones. It's way easier to accomplish parity and fairness when every team in the league has similar revenues.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 28, 2018 18:04:53 GMT -5
It has not only been a slow off season or free agents, it has been a slow off season for this kind of back and forth on this website. Nice to see people getting their hacks in. Maybe being a fan of the WORLD CHAMPIONS makes for easy reading.
I fall into the category that this isn't good for baseball and I would think that the people running it feel the same way. As I have stated, I think their are financial considerations that driving owners not participating in the FA markets like before and I believe some of those reasons are bottom line oriented and create downward pressure on players portions of the industry revenues.
For those who aren't concerned about it because of their love of the game, baseball isn't marketing to you. They know you will be there, it is the other folks that have their attention. If this is deemed a problem internally, they will try and fix it, as they should
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 28, 2018 18:14:50 GMT -5
Everything you said just isn't true! Fans love the draft to see their future stars, not because a player can play right away. Kinda hard to argue your point when thousands of red sox fans debate the draft and our prospects on this site alone. You likely can't make it equal to the NFL or NBA, but you can make it an event that people watch and talk about. As compared to the almost nothing it is today. The NHL draft is much more of an event and those guys aren't ready and spend years in the minors. Heck I bet close to 3/4 of the NBA players drafted this year will spend some time in the G league. The fact that Robert Williams isn't ready doesn't make the NBA draft any less fun. Or the fact that when the Celtics took Rozier and we hardly got to see him play as a rookie. People tune in because those sports pump up the draft for months as much watch TV. MLB does litterally nothing! Most 'future stars' in MLB are complete busts. That's why I made the Mark Appel point who was drafted 1st overall in 2013 and is likely never going to pitch in the majors. No matter how much you hype these guys, fans aren't dumb enough to fall for it year after year. This board is not made up of typical fans. Typical fans which the league supposedly has to cater to in order for them to have any interest in our favorite sport watch some games when their team is playing well. They do not follow prospects or the draft or every inning of every game like we do. We are the diehard fans, who are ignored when baseball does something to try to lure new fans with dumb gimmicks like pitch clocks and eliminating shifts and changing the baseball so that players hit home runs like it's a video game. Maybe they can decide extra inning games with a home run derby next. For me, I'm perfectly fine with MLB ignoring these people with short attention spans. Baseball will never die. It's only the stupid, stupid money that will die. Do I have to list the bust in the NFL draft and NBA draft? Come on now. Funny you list Appel in 2013 and keep harping on him. Yet 2009 to 2012 was Strasburg, Harper, Cole, and Correra. I think that says it all and kinda blows your theory to pieces.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2018 18:21:16 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2018 18:24:36 GMT -5
And this is how well people know baseball players.
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Post by swingingbunt on Dec 28, 2018 18:32:07 GMT -5
And this is how well people know baseball players. Is this supposed to prove some sort of point? Except for Gronk and Tom Brady I wouldn't know a single other NFL player if they introduced themselves and the position they play.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 28, 2018 18:34:12 GMT -5
Most 'future stars' in MLB are complete busts. That's why I made the Mark Appel point who was drafted 1st overall in 2013 and is likely never going to pitch in the majors. No matter how much you hype these guys, fans aren't dumb enough to fall for it year after year. This board is not made up of typical fans. Typical fans which the league supposedly has to cater to in order for them to have any interest in our favorite sport watch some games when their team is playing well. They do not follow prospects or the draft or every inning of every game like we do. We are the diehard fans, who are ignored when baseball does something to try to lure new fans with dumb gimmicks like pitch clocks and eliminating shifts and changing the baseball so that players hit home runs like it's a video game. Maybe they can decide extra inning games with a home run derby next. For me, I'm perfectly fine with MLB ignoring these people with short attention spans. Baseball will never die. It's only the stupid, stupid money that will die. Do I have to list the bust in the NFL draft and NBA draft? Come on now. Funny you list Appel in 2013 and keep harping on him. Yet 2009 to 2012 was Strasburg, Harper, Cole, and Correra. I think that says it all and kinda blows your theory to pieces. Regardless of whether they bust or not, most players drafted in the top 10 in NFL and NBA will be starters in the pros from game 1. In MLB? For most, wait 3-5 years if not forever. The excitement of drafting a player at the top of the MLB draft isn't even close to the excitement of having a top prospect close to the majors and is absolutely nothing like the drafts of other sports. Giants fans don't wait too long after the draft to see Saquon Barkley on Sundays. Ditto for Jayson Tatum.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2018 18:37:12 GMT -5
And this is how well people know baseball players. Is this supposed to prove some sort of point? Except for Gronk and Tom Brady I wouldn't know a single other NFL player if they introduced themselves and the position they play. Yeap. Baseball doesn't do enough to show off it's own players.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 28, 2018 18:45:20 GMT -5
8uu And this is how well people know baseball players. Is this supposed to prove some sort of point? Except for Gronk and Tom Brady I wouldn't know a single other NFL player if they introduced themselves and the position they play. No offense but that says more about you than football fans in general. You wouldn't know Eli Manning? Aaron Rodgers? Clay Matthews? Heck most people know those guys just from commercials. Guys like JJ Watt, Andrew Luck, Cam Newton. Nevermind the all-time greats. An average football fan knows most of the big names, its forced on us all year.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 28, 2018 18:59:57 GMT -5
Do I have to list the bust in the NFL draft and NBA draft? Come on now. Funny you list Appel in 2013 and keep harping on him. Yet 2009 to 2012 was Strasburg, Harper, Cole, and Correra. I think that says it all and kinda blows your theory to pieces. Regardless of whether they bust or not, most players drafted in the top 10 in NFL and NBA will be starters in the pros from game 1. In MLB? For most, wait 3-5 years if not forever. The excitement of drafting a player at the top of the MLB draft isn't even close to the excitement of having a top prospect close to the majors and is absolutely nothing like the drafts of other sports. Giants fans don't wait too long after the draft to see Saquon Barkley on Sundays. Ditto for Jayson Tatum. Again though that's just not true, greatly depends on the draft and that doesn't change anything. Nevermind I love lets now just look at the top 10 picks. The NFL draft is a three day event! People tune in because it's must watch TV due it being pumped up, covered and talked about for months in advance. They want to support thier teams, Baseball doesn't have that. They litterally do almost nothing. I will add they did change the first round from the middle of the day to primetime. So there is that. Baby steps I guess. Not being able to trade picks also has hurt the MLB draft. Trades are massive in the NBA and NFL drafts. They talk about them for months sometimes before the drafts. Pre-draft trades generate buzz and excitement. Just watch the movie draft day perfect example. Owner wanted a trade just for the buzz it would make.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 28, 2018 19:09:46 GMT -5
So... the offseason is still interesting. Oh no.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 28, 2018 19:12:28 GMT -5
Would also love to hear theories on how to condense free agency into a specified time period without forcing owners to spend more than they want to on players they might not want and also forcing players to accept contracts that they might not want to sign. I see exactly zero sides remotely interested in doing that. If you come up with a 'max contract' suggestion, then you're giving money to the owners at the expense of the players. And you're also making it much harder for lower revenue teams to compete, so that's not ever going to be on the table either. These are the issues you face in a sport with an incredibly long season where local tv contracts dwarf the national ones. It's way easier to accomplish parity and fairness when every team in the league has similar revenues. Wouldn't the solution to be instituting a hard cap and a minimum? I do not know the details of their labor agreement but the NFL might be the best model to answer your question. Certainly this is a very complex topic, you're right in your point that you cannot simply copy the NBA or NFL models but there are definitely parts of their models that transfer to MLB as a framework for continuing to make the game a major part of our sports landscape well into the future.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2018 23:42:21 GMT -5
So... the offseason is still interesting. Oh no. I mean, it can't be any worse than it has been so far. The game is better off seeing better contracts these days. The players love it. This is totally what free agency should be all about. Teams getting the best deals according to player values versus focusing on acquiring the best talent. There will be nothing to see here come next CBA. It's like you said, who cares? (Besides the GM or GMs talking about the same issue)
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Post by bluechip on Dec 29, 2018 2:12:11 GMT -5
I was in Spain and France this past summer. Everyone was wearing Yankee caps. I asked a friend why the Yankees were so popular. He then proceeded to ask our bartender (sporting NYY cap) if he’d ever seen a baseball game. The bartender said he’d seen one once, and it was “fine”, but that the cap had nothing to do with baseball. Baseball is obviously more popular in parts of Asian than it is in Europe, but I wouldn’t equate the wearing of caps to fandom. It’s fashion.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 29, 2018 2:53:26 GMT -5
I was in Spain and France this past summer. Everyone was wearing Yankee caps. I asked a friend why the Yankees were so popular. He then proceeded to ask our bartender (sporting NYY cap) if he’d ever seen a baseball game. The bartender said he’d seen one once, and it was “fine”, but that the cap had nothing to do with baseball. Baseball is obviously more popular in parts of Asian than it is in Europe, but I wouldn’t equate the wearing of caps to fandom. It’s fashion. I see a lot of Yankee hats but pretty much nobody here (Philippines) knows that they are more than New York City hats or even know who the Yankees are. Generally, they barely know what baseball is. Don't worry, this isn't contributing to the Yankees pocketbook. They are the same hats, made by the same manufacturers but they are stock over runs. Asians get a lot of stock overruns, Nike, Adidas, Guchi, etc,etc,etc. Pretty much nobody here is going to pay $20 for a hat, I paid $3 for my Sox hat. lol, my wife stole it since I almost always wear my 25 year old hat much to her horror (they don't understand the reasoning behind original well worn gear.) ADD: The Celtics and Lakers are the two most popular teams here (the real ones). If I mention baseball, I usually have to imitate a pitcher and batter for people to know what I'm talking about.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 31, 2018 17:22:29 GMT -5
At least Buster shares my same concerns. Wish I had insider for this article.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 31, 2018 17:33:28 GMT -5
ESPN obtained a memo written by player agent Jeff Berry outlining some ideas on how to improve the troubling conditions that have developed in this labor market.
Berry writes, “As advocates, our job is to fight for and protect player rights, and when necessary, try and help create solutions — not pointing fingers of blame and hoping things get better. And I wholeheartedly believe there are viable solutions to the core labor issues facing the game that can be remedied to the benefit of players, clubs and fans.”
That's from MLB trade rumors who has the insider. Major changes are coming,or going to be proposed in the next CBA because of the behaviors teams are taking in their new approach to free agency.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 31, 2018 17:41:26 GMT -5
At least Buster shares my same concerns. Wish I had insider for this article. Your not missing much, rather stupid ideas. Just basically push back at everything they can. Won't do much but set the stage for a major labor battle. If Owners don't want to pay aging players ok, but then you need to redo the whole system. Pay the younger guys more, the players still need there share. Yet poor teams won't want that, yet it those teams that are basically staying out of free agency that is a huge problem. If I had to guess we are going to lose games over this.
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Post by swingingbunt on Dec 31, 2018 19:06:43 GMT -5
There was a massive thread last year blaming Boras, and the players themselves, for the slow market. I'm glad people are finally coming around to the fact that the problem stems from greedy owners wanting to pocket as much money as they can.
Now we just need to get on the same page when it comes to owners also being too greedy to pay minor leaguers a living wage (but that's for another thread).
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 31, 2018 19:52:27 GMT -5
I think most owners would be glad to pay most players, especially in their "prime years."
The problem is the 25-35 percent of teams who cry poor no matter what. Small market teams like the Reds, Royals, Rays, A's, Diamondbacks, Padres, Pirates.
There's going to be a massive war over years of control over the players. Small market teams won't give in at all. The players want to get paid a lot sooner if teams don't want to pay them in their 30's. The solution is pretty clear actually, it's this one.
I don't know how they fix this. Tony Clark of the player's union might be the worst guy to put in this position to fix this problem for the players themselves.
Add- Restricted Free Agnecy seems like the best option after year 5 in the years of control of a player. Max contracts seem like a good compromise if the owners are giving up years of control, but everyone seems to hate this idea who wants the best deals for the players. I just want to see a free agency that isn't about money and instead about the players themselves being courted and seeing where is the best fit. A true baseball free agency, instead of a holdout of the best players in every off-season.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 31, 2018 23:10:02 GMT -5
It takes two sides to get a contract signed, so I just don't see how either side could or would allow being forced to sign contracts.
It's true. MLB teams finally realized that they're always going to lose in free agency so they're not willing to participate. So the trick is to make it so that they won't always lose, while also giving enough money to the players who deserve to make the most money.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 1, 2019 0:17:15 GMT -5
Jon Morosi Verified account @jonmorosi
Pitchers and catchers report about 42 days from now. Happy New Year, indeed! @mlbnetwork @mlb
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 1, 2019 20:57:22 GMT -5
Some assorted thoughts on this topic. Many have already been said, but just getting some of these in one place that have been rolling about in my head. 1) If you want to say that as a baseball fan, the slow pace of the offseason annoys you personally, that's your personal opinion and completely reasonable. I can relate. It is sorta frustrating to sit and wait. I get that 100%. 2) If you want to say that baseball's slow offseason is bad for the game, I haven't seen a single reasonable, cogent argument to back up that claim yet in this thread or the related discussion last offseason. I've seen nothing that ties the slow offseason to any particular negative effect that doesn't involve an obvious logical fallacy. 3) If you want to say that baseball's slow offseason is bad for teams, I haven't seen a single reasonable, cogent argument to back up that claim yet in this thread or the related discussion last offseason. Teams have the power to offer players more money to get them to sign. If they don't want to, that's their problem. 4) If you want to say that baseball's slow offseason is bad for players, I could perhaps buy that in the sense that the slow pace is because players are no longer getting paid as much. Otherwise, again, I haven't seen a single reasonable, cogent argument to back up that claim beyond something as inconsequential as the player not knowing specifically where he'll be living geographically or something. Players have the ability to sign for offers that are on the table. If they don't want to, that's their problem. 5) It makes no sense to set a deadline for players to sign contracts. All that will do is drive contracts down even further unfairly. 6) Comparison to the NBA makes no sense. That league has a maximum contract for its best players (to oversimplify a bit, but the point stands). The league's best players are literally just deciding which organization they want to play for - they know what they're going to make. 7) Comparison to the NFL, which has a much more draconian salary cap, makes no sense. Yes, MLB has a CBT but most teams come nowhere near it. If there is a finite amount of money to go around, there is incentive to get deals done quicker for both sides. If MLB instituted a true salary cap at a level most teams would pay, then you'd see players signing a lot quicker. (Using Spotrac, NFL salary cap figures range from ~$144.5M to ~$199.0M. www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/ MLB payrolls ranged from $68.8M to $227M. NINE teams didn't spend half of what the Red Sox did. www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2018/ ) 8) If you post on this forum, you are not the typical fan who MLB (or any other professional league) is marketing to. The typical baseball fan does not go to an internet forum to talk about it, never mind about the minor league system of a particular franchise. If you are here, you are the outlier, and you are not who leagues are marketing to. It's a thing that comes up when we talk about, say, broadcasters - that broadcaster is not there for you. That broadcaster is there for the 25-50yo (or whatever the main demo is now) who sorta knows what's happening and doesn't know who Michael Chavis is, never mind like, Chad De La Guerra. Because YOU feel a certain way is not indicative of the way the target demo feels or reacts to something. The person that matters is the one in your workplace/class/whatever who is asking you questions about what's going on in the offseason. Because guess what? The person in that demo doesn't follow the offseason nearly as closely as you do. They follow the on-field product, during the season. I think in a discussion like this one, stepping back and recognizing that is crucial to having any sort of intelligent conversation. 9) I do think the two slow offseasons in a row are potentially bad for one reason: they portend a near-certain labor stoppage that will be necessary to correct some of the problems that are leading to the slow offseasons. The players have gotten slow played to this point and need to correct it, and I think they now realize the corner they've painted themselves into. I'll be stunned if there's no work stoppage during the next CBA negotiations, because the league's pay structure needs a maassive reset, and that's not something that's going to happen in an offseason unless both sides come in uncharacteristically ready to do just that.
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