SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Red Sox, X. Bogaerts Agree to Extension (6 years/$120 mill)
|
Post by iakovos11 on Apr 1, 2019 21:20:39 GMT -5
Jered Weaver, as well, iirc, though that contract still didn't age well, either... Prince Fielder, Mark Texeira, Jacoby Ellsbury, Shin-Soo Choo, Barry Zito, Jason Werth, and Kevin Brown all say hi too. It may be a generalization to dump on Boras (Scherzer has been worth his contract and then some and there are other exceptions to the general rule) but to characterize it as a straw man as someone suggested is ridiculous. Maybe you don't understand what a straw man is. The straw man here is saying people are calling him a saint, when nobody did. That BS. Nobody is saying that. He is what he is. He's good at what he does and he'll get you what you want. He works for you, the player. And so what of those names you mentioned? They asked him to get the best deal he could. They had no real interest in signing with one particular team or staying in a region. Not at much of a discount anyway. Boras didn't force them or the teams into anything. Boras didn't make the giants sign Zito for that contract or the MFY to sign Ellsbury to that contract. It's not only Boras clients that sign contracts that don;t age well.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 2, 2019 1:14:07 GMT -5
Maybe you don't understand what a straw man is. The straw man here is saying people are calling him a saint, when nobody did. That BS. Nobody is saying that. He is what he is. He's good at what he does and he'll get you what you want. He works for you, the player. And so what of those names you mentioned? They asked him to get the best deal he could. They had no real interest in signing with one particular team or staying in a region. Not at much of a discount anyway. Boras didn't force them or the teams into anything. Boras didn't make the giants sign Zito for that contract or the MFY to sign Ellsbury to that contract. It's not only Boras clients that sign contracts that don;t age well. Yeah, I missed where you were saying the strawman was so appreciate the clarification. In terms of Boras, all I'm going to say is that if you can't tell the difference between a lawyer (to use your analogy) and a mob lawyer then I've got nothing for you. There's a difference ? lol, you are naive. Why do you think they take the hypocrites oath ?
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 2, 2019 6:26:57 GMT -5
Also, how little would the Red Sox have to re-sign Xander for before people wouldn't call it a "fair" deal for him? There may be no demographic in the history of mankind in less need of anyone's sympathy/pity than the $100M+ athlete. I can think of a quite a few, actually.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 2, 2019 6:49:30 GMT -5
Good Lord. We actually have the "canonization" of Scott Boras going on here. Yeah, if you were a big ticket free agent or a major market, he is gold. If you were a fan of a small market club or a team on the brink that needed, but couldn't afford, that one great player, forget it.It's weird how these owners can't afford to sign anyone, but then when they sell the team, they're several billion dollars richer than when they bought it. Someone who is good at the economy please explain this to me. He has been marginalized now because his business model no longer works when teams have more money and are making investments in players at earlier stages of their careers. His clients signed like a billion dollars worth of contracts this offseason.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 2, 2019 7:43:51 GMT -5
Good Lord. We actually have the "canonization" of Scott Boras going on here. Yeah, if you were a big ticket free agent or a major market, he is gold. If you were a fan of a small market club or a team on the brink that needed, but couldn't afford, that one great player, forget it.It's weird how these owners can't afford to sign anyone, but then when they sell the team, they're several billion dollars richer than when they bought it. Someone who is good at the economy please explain this to me. He has been marginalized now because his business model no longer works when teams have more money and are making investments in players at earlier stages of their careers. His clients signed like a billion dollars worth of contracts this offseason. It's called capitalism. This is a joke, no relies please.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 2, 2019 8:39:28 GMT -5
Everyone knows its capitalism, but people seem to be confused as to who possesses the capital.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Apr 2, 2019 9:15:32 GMT -5
Maybe you don't understand what a straw man is. The straw man here is saying people are calling him a saint, when nobody did. That BS. Nobody is saying that. He is what he is. He's good at what he does and he'll get you what you want. He works for you, the player. And so what of those names you mentioned? They asked him to get the best deal he could. They had no real interest in signing with one particular team or staying in a region. Not at much of a discount anyway. Boras didn't force them or the teams into anything. Boras didn't make the giants sign Zito for that contract or the MFY to sign Ellsbury to that contract. It's not only Boras clients that sign contracts that don;t age well. Yeah, I missed where you were saying the strawman was so appreciate the clarification. In terms of Boras, all I'm going to say is that if you can't tell the difference between a lawyer (to use your analogy) and a mob lawyer then I've got nothing for you. This isn't even an appropriate analogy, unless you're suggesting the players and Boras are doing something illegal. If you think that, then I have nothing for you.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Apr 2, 2019 9:34:44 GMT -5
Totally aside, I like how the thread title specifies "X. Bogaerts" so that we know it wasn't Jair.
|
|
|
Post by voiceofreason on Apr 2, 2019 9:52:22 GMT -5
For all the Boras/agent/LAWYER talk here let me give you all a lesson.
They are not meant to do what is fair, they are meant to fight for their client to the best of their ability. For those of you who think that is the best thing let me remind you.
Most politicians are lawyers. Have any of you been thru a divorce with lawyers who generally just drive up their billable hours fighting over everything? How many times to we see high priced powerful lawyers screw the justice system? How many times to we have to see a prosecutor found guilty of hiding evidence to rail road a trial and further their conviction record. In negotiations between corporations and unions for fair wages, in either direction. The list goes on and on how lawyers make everything worse.
My point is that when lawyers get involved everyone loses. Just look at what they did to the NFL with rookie deals until the league got smart and created a rookie contract scale. Jamarcus Russell got a 60 million dollar deal with 32 million guaranteed and never earned a penny in the NFL. Their is a long list of such guys and who drove that market?
My apologies to anyone on here that is an attorney, I know you guys are just doing your jobs. But lawyers represent clients and doing what is fair isn't part of the job description and just because you can come up with a good argument doesn't make it right. Which is what Boras has been doing with his player books for years. I won't get into personal stories but I can tell you I have been f^%ked more than once. Including spending time in jail for doing absolutely nothing wrong. I can say that because as soon as I got in front of a judge I was released immediately and never charged, but somehow paperwork gut screwed up and I spent 4 more days in jail. Hmmmm!! Boras is just doing his job but I would not say he has been good for baseball.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaydouble on Apr 2, 2019 10:31:11 GMT -5
For all the Boras/agent/LAWYER talk here let me give you all a lesson. They are not meant to do what is fair, they are meant to fight for their client to the best of their ability. For those of you who think that is the best thing let me remind you. Most politicians are lawyers. Have any of you been thru a divorce with lawyers who generally just drive up their billable hours fighting over everything? How many times to we see high priced powerful lawyers screw the justice system? How many times to we have to see a prosecutor found guilty of hiding evidence to rail road a trial and further their conviction record. In negotiations between corporations and unions for fair wages, in either direction. The list goes on and on how lawyers make everything worse. My point is that when lawyers get involved everyone loses. Just look at what they did to the NFL with rookie deals until the league got smart and created a rookie contract scale. Jamarcus Russell got a 60 million dollar deal with 32 million guaranteed and never earned a penny in the NFL. Their is a long list of such guys and who drove that market? My apologies to anyone on here that is an attorney, I know you guys are just doing your jobs. But lawyers represent clients and doing what is fair isn't part of the job description and just because you can come up with a good argument doesn't make it right. Which is what Boras has been doing with his player books for years. I won't get into personal stories but I can tell you I have been f^%ked more than once. Including spending time in jail for doing absolutely nothing wrong. I can say that because as soon as I got in front of a judge I was released immediately and never charged, but somehow paperwork gut screwed up and I spent 4 more days in jail. Hmmmm!! Boras is just doing his job but I would not say he has been good for baseball. Trying to get players big contracts is not a moral issue, full stop. That even goes for JaMarcus Russell's agent. If bad contracts are hurting the sanctity of the game, then you should blame the teams stupid enough to give them out.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 2, 2019 10:41:37 GMT -5
My point is that when lawyers get involved everyone loses. Just look at what they did to the NFL with rookie deals until the league got smart and created a rookie contract scale. Jamarcus Russell got a 60 million dollar deal with 32 million guaranteed and never earned a penny in the NFL. Their is a long list of such guys and who drove that market? Good.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Apr 2, 2019 11:06:52 GMT -5
Me, reading thread title: "Oh neat, Xander Bogearts has signed an extension. He is a player I enjoy! Let us see the reactions Thread content: "The economy doesn't work if labor accidentally earns too money, and lawyers should be burned at the stake." Me:
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 2, 2019 11:12:58 GMT -5
Prince Fielder, Mark Texeira, Jacoby Ellsbury, Shin-Soo Choo, Barry Zito, Jason Werth, and Kevin Brown all say hi too. It may be a generalization to dump on Boras (Scherzer has been worth his contract and then some and there are other exceptions to the general rule) but to characterize it as a straw man as someone suggested is ridiculous. Maybe you don't understand what a straw man is. The straw man here is saying people are calling him a saint, when nobody did. That BS. Nobody is saying that. He is what he is. He's good at what he does and he'll get you what you want. He works for you, the player. And so what of those names you mentioned? They asked him to get the best deal he could. They had no real interest in signing with one particular team or staying in a region. Not at much of a discount anyway. Boras didn't force them or the teams into anything. Boras didn't make the giants sign Zito for that contract or the MFY to sign Ellsbury to that contract. It's not only Boras clients that sign contracts that don;t age well. I said he wasnt all good or bad. I didnt inject any strawman here. You aren't responding to the context of my post, instead focusing on verbiage. I mean these kind of responses go on all the time around here. It isn't multiple choice exercise
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Apr 2, 2019 11:36:20 GMT -5
Maybe you don't understand what a straw man is. The straw man here is saying people are calling him a saint, when nobody did. That BS. Nobody is saying that. He is what he is. He's good at what he does and he'll get you what you want. He works for you, the player. And so what of those names you mentioned? They asked him to get the best deal he could. They had no real interest in signing with one particular team or staying in a region. Not at much of a discount anyway. Boras didn't force them or the teams into anything. Boras didn't make the giants sign Zito for that contract or the MFY to sign Ellsbury to that contract. It's not only Boras clients that sign contracts that don;t age well. I said he wasnt all good or bad. I didnt inject any strawman here. You aren't responding to the context of my post, instead focusing on verbiage. I mean these kind of responses go on all the time around here. It isn't multiple choice exercise Fair enough. My bad if I misunderstood the point you were making.
|
|
|
Post by soxfaninnj on Apr 2, 2019 11:46:02 GMT -5
Me, reading thread title: "Oh neat, Xander Bogearts has signed an extension. He is a player I enjoy! Let us see the reactions Thread content: "The economy doesn't work if labor accidentally earns too money, and lawyers should be burned at the stake." Me: Wonder what Ronald acuna giving braves ten years will do to the labor conversation
|
|
|
Post by m1keyboots on Apr 2, 2019 11:46:29 GMT -5
I have to admit, checking the thread a couple days ago and even now I did not imagine that people would ever have a problem with the money or the contract. I know, I know. :/
An A level baseball player, by all accounts and A+ level man, brother, son and teammate. Signed for what would be a discount on the open market even today. Less than he'd receive in FA despite the drought. Signed for less for all the right reasons. Never has a bad word to say about the fan base or the writers are coaches or anything really. Living his dream as he described it. Not taking more than what he needed (and wanted), and is grateful all the time. I'll say it, in case no one else has. What more could you expect from an elite level, homegrown athlete? Celibacy? Have him turn lefty?
Some still find problems with it. I think it's misplaced Mookie frustration. For me and most other people it feels good to have some guys who so obviously care about winning and comraderie. It's all what we enjoyed about baseball and per his talent, he took less money to keep it that way.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Apr 2, 2019 12:03:05 GMT -5
Me, reading thread title: "Oh neat, Xander Bogearts has signed an extension. He is a player I enjoy! Let us see the reactions Thread content: "The economy doesn't work if labor accidentally earns too money, and lawyers should be burned at the stake." Me: This feels like "Heath Hembree Agrees to Extension". I'm all up to debate the owners/players thing as we all done all winter, but come on guys this is a good news thread.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 2, 2019 12:53:57 GMT -5
My reaction is a little different.
I was happy to hear Xander is staying. I know the budget is going to be what it is so I'm glad there's more room left over for other players like a JD Martinez to come back or a real shot at keeping Mookie.
But as far as the other stuff goes? I find it amazing that people are so into this millionaires vs billionaires debate. In the real world I live in, most people struggle financially and live paycheck to paycheck, and even that isn't enough.
For me it's hard for me to worry about if players can make it on $20 million/year versus say $25 million/year. And if the thinking is that I'm rooting for the billionaires think again.
I get annoyed when the Sox, who, granted, are spending the most money in baseball (which truly doesn't say a lot for the other 29 ownerships of other teams, does it?) won't spend beyond a certain line that's kind of arbitrary because they claim they're not really making a profit, yet they ignore the rising value of their franchise or what NESN, their own company, makes as profit.
Hell, I'm even annoyed NESN is refusing to make a 2018 Season/Post-Season Highlight DVD of the best team in Red Sox history because (sniff, sniff) MLB is charging them too much. How can they make ends meet?
Screw the fans. Just like if the players and the owners can't figure out how to slice a ridiculously lucrative pie fairly am I suppose to favor one side or the other?
Neither side is going to be dealing with the problems that most of us have financially in real life, so it's just really hard to feel like I have a dog in this fight.
Hopefully common sense prevails and they come up with a better system that compensates players, one that owners and players consider fair.
Frankly I don't care for Boras' style. I find his style kind of nauseating. The way he talks about every player as if they're all superstars, as if the rest of us are too stupid to know what kind of players they really are. I'd love to hear somebody press him on the Jacoby Ellsbury's of the world, the guys who are complete busts and are a total waste of money when you look at $ value versus performance.
Just because I find him nauseating (and you have to wonder whose idea was it to insert the opt-out clause, his or his client's - the way he spoke he made it sound like it was his), I acknowledge he's good at his job. Just wish he was a lot less carnival barker styled. Most of the other agents - I have no idea who they are, but this guy...I hear way too much of.
Again that's a personal preference style.
Anyways, that's all I got. Carry on.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Apr 2, 2019 13:29:36 GMT -5
but come on guys this is a good news thread.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 2, 2019 15:17:54 GMT -5
But as far as the other stuff goes? I find it amazing that people are so into this millionaires vs billionaires debate. In the real world I live in, most people struggle financially and live paycheck to paycheck, and even that isn't enough. People act like there's no meaningful difference between these two groups, and that's ridiculous. The difference is literally an order of magnitude. And beyond that, it's a difference in behavior. When Ronald Acuna demands that the taxpayers of Atlanta provide him with a $100m dollar mansion before he'll consider resigning there, maybe I'll buy into the millionaires being no different from the billionaires. Baseball players are extremely talented labor that deserves to share in the profits they generate. The owners are f'ing thieves.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 2, 2019 16:09:55 GMT -5
But as far as the other stuff goes? I find it amazing that people are so into this millionaires vs billionaires debate. In the real world I live in, most people struggle financially and live paycheck to paycheck, and even that isn't enough. People act like there's no meaningful difference between these two groups, and that's ridiculous. The difference is literally an order of magnitude. And beyond that, it's a difference in behavior. When Ronald Acuna demands that the taxpayers of Atlanta provide him with a $100m dollar mansion before he'll consider resigning there, maybe I'll buy into the millionaires being no different from the billionaires. Baseball players are extremely talented labor that deserves to share in the profits they generate. The owners are f'ing thieves. I'd say in real life there's a much more meaningful difference between thousandaires and millionaires than there millionaires and billionaires. And it's not ridiculous to think that there's no real meaningful difference between millionaires and billionaires. Get real. What are the meaningful real life practical differences? That millionaires (multi in the players' cases) can only afford several mansions while billionaires can buy whole blocks of mansions? Seriously, what is the practical difference and why am I supposed to feel so bad for millionaires? I certainly don't feel bad for billionaires so at least we can agree on that. I mean, c'mon, let's get real here. Neither group is going to starve or go up against daily financial difficulties like many of us do. Again, that doesn't mean that I'm on the side of the billionaires. I'm not. And I'm certainly for the players getting their equal share of the pie. Makes sense. I'm just saying that I see all this prolonged at times heated (see labor vs capital argument) back and forth about it, almost the victimization of these poor millionaires, and it seems rather silly to me when you take a minute to step away from our baseball fandom, and see how ridiculous it looks.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Apr 2, 2019 17:08:10 GMT -5
It's not millionaires vs. billionaires. It's fans wanting their billionaire owners to allocate their budgets on a better team instead of overpaying players that don't contribute enough. We all want the players to sign for a discount because of that reason only. And also, it's incredibly annoying to see fat Pablo making $95 million without even trying to be in shape so he can play at a major league level.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 2, 2019 17:14:12 GMT -5
But as far as the other stuff goes? I find it amazing that people are so into this millionaires vs billionaires debate. In the real world I live in, most people struggle financially and live paycheck to paycheck, and even that isn't enough. People act like there's no meaningful difference between these two groups, and that's ridiculous. The difference is literally an order of magnitude. And beyond that, it's a difference in behavior. When Ronald Acuna demands that the taxpayers of Atlanta provide him with a $100m dollar mansion before he'll consider resigning there, maybe I'll buy into the millionaires being no different from the billionaires. Baseball players are extremely talented labor that deserves to share in the profits they generate. The owners are f'ing thieves. What share is that? Overall they share in the profits more than almost all other workers. So what share makes the owners not thieves?
|
|
steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,823
|
Post by steveofbradenton on Apr 2, 2019 17:51:00 GMT -5
Xander is awesome. He's a goofy looking kid, but he has all the tools in the world and for all of us that he wowed as prospect, it's just great to be here. "Goofy looking? What are you looking at? I love this kid. He is super intelligent, and IS a very nice looking gentleman. I only wish our whole roster was Xander like
|
|
|
Post by libertine on Apr 2, 2019 17:52:34 GMT -5
All of the other issues aside. I love this deal. Xander was the one I thought we'd have the hardest time signing (his agent and the agent's history). It's a good contract for the club. Xander wants to be here. I am very happy that he is happy and going to be a Red Sox for a long time to come.
|
|
|