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Post by caseytins on Jun 5, 2019 9:33:15 GMT -5
Assuming the top 10 sign, where would you place them in the top 60 on this site? Real quick, here is my view: Lugo @ 5 Cannon @ 6 Song @ 12 * (this is a tough one) Zeferjahn @ 13 Groshans @ 25 Scroggins @ 30 Murphy @ 34 Bell @ 38 Scott @ 40 Dalton @ 42 All 10 in the top 42 ? That's either an optimistic view of the draft or a pessimistic view of the existing system. Good point. I just did this real quick after reading up on each pick. I was just trying to slot these guys in for fun. I would probably push them all back some if I were to do a revision.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Jun 5, 2019 9:33:43 GMT -5
Right but you can almost include every pitcher drafted. Who’s one pitcher that they drafted besides Matt Barnes, who was drafted in 2011!!!, that’s made any sort of impact here.... i must be missing someone... it’s a pathetic track record... So I think this is correct... looked quickly... from the 2007 draft forward, the pitchers who you can say made some sort of impact are: Barnes Brian Johnson Brandon Workman That list is so bad I don’t even know what to say.... It’s covered different GMs and scouting departments so what gives? There was Lester in 2002, Papelbon in 2003, Buchholz in 2005 and Masterson in 2006 and no starter of note since.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 5, 2019 9:39:30 GMT -5
So I think this is correct... looked quickly... from the 2007 draft forward, the pitchers who you can say made some sort of impact are: Barnes Brian Johnson Brandon Workman That list is so bad I don’t even know what to say.... It’s covered different GMs and scouting departments so what gives? There was Lester in 2002, Papelbon in 2003, Buchholz in 2005 and Masterson in 2006 and no starter of note since. I wonder what Masterson is up to; I met him once and he was one of the nicest people I’ve ever met... now it was one meeting but he was a pleasure to speak to
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 5, 2019 9:43:37 GMT -5
I'd give some credit to the Red Sox for developing ERod.
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Post by 1toolplayer on Jun 5, 2019 9:47:45 GMT -5
I feel this is somewhat cherrypicking. I mean sure it's not great, but what about the impact position players drafted during that same timeframe? Pretty lengthy list I bet. Or drafted pitchers used in trade packages to acquire impact talent? That's an extension of the draft. Would seem this speaks more to the fragility or volitility of pitching in general, vs developing position players. Take a look at 30 of the best SPs in the game right now and how many were drafted by that team and/or outside the top 10 picks, where the Sox arent typically picking (Trey Ball disaster aside)... Snell (TB had like 100 picks in the top 40 that yr) DeGrom and Walker Beuhler, anyone else? I also think theres improvement coming in that regard as well Edit: I quoted the wrong post. I'm sorry. 3 guys, 2 of which really are replacement level types, since 2007 isn’t cherry picking. Position players are irrelevant to the discussion. I wasn’t saying they suck at everything; they just are terrible at developing any type of pitching whatsoever - they can’t even get back end starters or middle relievers. This really isn’t a hot take. The question is why?I didn't say it was a hot take, I said it was cherry picking, because the focus was on one of the 4 major talent acquisitions available, for one group of players, that aren't currently with the Red Sox. It's a bit narrowed. I also think position players do become relevant to my point in that pitching is quite volatile in terms of drafting and developing vs position players., when you ask the question "why". If a team has been rather strong at developing position players, I don't think its a talent evaluation thing, since it spans 3 different regimes. I do think its somewhat fluky, but maybe some of it has to do with draft capital/ bonus pools. Typically the Red Sox aren't picking towards the top (again Trey Ball disaster aside), so access to the premium arms, whether its highly regarded college starters that tend to require the high pick, or highly regarded HS arms that typically require the large bonuses, maybe that's part of it. Could it speak to why they've had more success with position players, choosing to allocate their resources more towards their ability to identify that talent? Sort of speaks to the old Theo axiom of develop bats/ buy pitching. They've also used a number of players in trades that have reached the major leagues (Buttrey, Beeks, Kopech, Anderson,), and certainly have had sucess in acquiring major league pitching. Some others were injured which slowed their path (Groome is an obvious one, Austin Maddox would sneakily be a big piece of thier BP this yr), some stalled in the high minors after being highly regarded (Owens, Kelly, Hagadone, Ranaudo), and some in the high minors like Sharawyn, Lakins, Poyner, Hart, Houk that have a chance to at least be regular members of their bullpen moving forward. I think this is one of those things on the surface that sounds a little worse than it actually is, mainly because of their on field success. But I think if we take a look at some other teams, we'd be surprised to see their pitching staffs are assembled pretty similarly, whether its their rotation or bullpen.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 5, 2019 9:53:43 GMT -5
I'd give some credit to the Red Sox for developing ERod. Yea that’s pretty much where we are at - giving them credit for someone like him, who only made 14 minor league starts before making the majors and is someone that hasn’t reached his potential in the majors and has taken way too long to get to where he’s at. We can blame the injuries tho. But i agree they do deserve some credit for obtaining a guy like him and getting value from his control period. That is big especially if you can’t draft them.
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Post by ramireja on Jun 5, 2019 9:56:43 GMT -5
I think the biggest factor when evaluating our pitching development is that we have aggressively traded most of our promising arms during this Dombrowski build of a championship contender. I'm totally fine with that by the way, its already been a successful approach. I might be reading too far into that approach, but I do think its easier to develop an MLB ready bat that can come in and contribute right away to a degree and we've seen that without our homegrown core of position players. A lot of pitching prospects seem to take more time to develop and work through some struggles at the MLB level (#1 and #2 type pitchers being the exception). I just don't think we've been in a position to let these guys develop on the big club so instead we've got value out of our pitching prospects by flipping them for MLB ready talent with fewer years of control (e.g., Sale, Kimbrel, Eovaldi, Pomeranz). The list of guys there includes a bunch of major leaguers or legit prospects:
- Michael Kopech - Anderson Espinoza - Jalen Beeks - Shaun Anderson - Logan Allen - Ty Buttrey - Gregory Santos - Frankie Montas - Williams Jerez
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 5, 2019 9:58:27 GMT -5
Is it that they can't draft them? Or that they're particularly good at drafting and developing hitters, so they just do that? Like "yo we're just going to keep dominating the amateur position player market until everyone else realizes that they should grab guys who are 5-foot-10" seems like a pretty good (and working) strategy.
And you can't just wave off they guys they've gotten good value for trading away.
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Post by RedSoxStats on Jun 5, 2019 10:04:21 GMT -5
Seems like being shut down in April for a few weeks hasn't been Scroggins' only arm issues this year. Arkansas Coach on Sunday:
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 5, 2019 10:13:00 GMT -5
This was a long time ago but I remember a stretch of time where they drafted and developed Bruce Hurst, Bob Ojeda, Oil Can Boyd, Al Nipper, Roger Clemens, which was actually their rotation in 1984 and 1985. They had also drafted and developed John Tudor as well in that late 70s/early 80s.
There were some "misses" that pitched in the majors during that era: Mike Brown, Rob Woodward, and Jeff Sellers. Later on they did get some brief contributions, particularly in 1990, from Dana Kiecker and Tom Bolton.
I'm going off the top of my head but I remember Aaron Sele probably being the biggest starter of note that they drafted and developed in the 90s. Kevin Morton looked good for a little while. And they drafted and developed Brian Rose, who did contribute a little, but wasn't very successful. Carl Pavano was one they did a good job of drafting and developing - and he was the main payment used to obtain Pedro Martinez.
As others pointed out there was Lester, Buchholz, and Masterson. Perhaps the Sox should get some credit for Bronson Arroyo if they get final development points for E-Rod.
And the starter list is even lower in this decade.
Amazing how developing starters through their farm system have dwindled over the past few decades. The Red Sox keep developing position players, but starting pitchers has become increasingly rare.
I'd think that Logan Allen will be the most successful starting pitcher the Sox have drafted in some time, although Kopech has the best arm. And we'll see re: Espinoza. Groome has the talent to be, but his future is so up in the air, and it's possible that despite the talent, he never does become the #2/#3 type starter we hope he turns into.
If he didn't have the military commitment I'd think that Nathan Song is the best starting pitching prospect the Red Sox have.
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Post by soxin8 on Jun 5, 2019 10:25:41 GMT -5
There was Lester in 2002, Papelbon in 2003, Buchholz in 2005 and Masterson in 2006 and no starter of note since. I wonder what Masterson is up to; I met him once and he was one of the nicest people I’ve ever met... now it was one meeting but he was a pleasure to speak to Justin and his wife are Christians and are doing missionary work. They founded Fortress Foundation if you want to see a picture of him and who he is working with. He was always one of Joe Castiglione's favorite interviews, just a great guy.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 5, 2019 10:39:57 GMT -5
Could the names of this draft class be anymore masculine? lol We missed on Spencer Brickhouse.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 5, 2019 10:45:01 GMT -5
Could the names of this draft class be anymore masculine? lol We missed on Spencer Brickhouse. If that dude doesn't wear 36 or 24 or 36 then what are we even doing here.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 5, 2019 10:46:05 GMT -5
3 guys, 2 of which really are replacement level types, since 2007 isn’t cherry picking. Position players are irrelevant to the discussion. I wasn’t saying they suck at everything; they just are terrible at developing any type of pitching whatsoever - they can’t even get back end starters or middle relievers. This really isn’t a hot take. The question is why?I didn't say it was a hot take, I said it was cherry picking, because the focus was on one of the 4 major talent acquisitions available, for one group of players, that aren't currently with the Red Sox. It's a bit narrowed. I also think position players do become relevant to my point in that pitching is quite volatile in terms of drafting and developing vs position players., when you ask the question "why". If a team has been rather strong at developing position players, I don't think its a talent evaluation thing, since it spans 3 different regimes. I do think its somewhat fluky, but maybe some of it has to do with draft capital/ bonus pools. Typically the Red Sox aren't picking towards the top (again Trey Ball disaster aside), so access to the premium arms, whether its highly regarded college starters that tend to require the high pick, or highly regarded HS arms that typically require the large bonuses, maybe that's part of it. Could it speak to why they've had more success with position players, choosing to allocate their resources more towards their ability to identify that talent? Sort of speaks to the old Theo axiom of develop bats/ buy pitching. They've also used a number of players in trades that have reached the major leagues (Buttrey, Beeks, Kopech, Anderson,), and certainly have had sucess in acquiring major league pitching. Some others were injured which slowed their path (Groome is an obvious one, Austin Maddox would sneakily be a big piece of thier BP this yr), some stalled in the high minors after being highly regarded (Owens, Kelly, Hagadone, Ranaudo), and some in the high minors like Sharawyn, Lakins, Poyner, Hart, Houk that have a chance to at least be regular members of their bullpen moving forward. I think this is one of those things on the surface that sounds a little worse than it actually is, mainly because of their on field success. But I think if we take a look at some other teams, we'd be surprised to see their pitching staffs are assembled pretty similarly, whether its their rotation or bullpen. I don’t think cherrypick means what you think it does. I’m talking about something very specific that’s also important. The highly regarded guys that stalled prove my point and the list of guys who could someday help the bullpen are currently just part of an endless group of people that have fit in that category for the last 12 years. Let’s hope these ones actually help and don’t go into the stalled out category. It’s not about having a staff comprised of home grown players. All we are looking for is some sort of semi regular influx of guys you can count on to contribute for a period of time.. be it a couple years or thru their option or arbitration years. But if you’re happy with how they’ve done on the pitching development side of things that’s cool, i just happen to think it’s a shortcoming that can’t be explained by draft position.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jun 5, 2019 10:57:54 GMT -5
We missed on Spencer Brickhouse. If that dude doesn't wear 36 or 24 or 36 then what are we even doing here. I'm crying.... I imagine that either home or away team broadcast booths are going to have fun with his intro music as well.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jun 5, 2019 11:34:31 GMT -5
We missed on Spencer Brickhouse. If that dude doesn't wear 36 or 24 or 36 then what are we even doing here. Maybe they'd make an exception to the number rules and allow him to wear all 3
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Post by telson13 on Jun 5, 2019 21:07:19 GMT -5
We missed on Spencer Brickhouse. If that dude doesn't wear 36 or 24 or 36 then what are we even doing here. 🤣🤣🤣 24 karat. Sir Mixalot would be proud.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 6, 2019 7:54:44 GMT -5
Law referred to Murphy as a senior as well (in his AL Draft Roundup)
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Post by dirtdog on Jun 6, 2019 23:44:38 GMT -5
RHP Sebastian Keane, Boston Red Sox 2 OF 6
As the above video attests, Sebastian Keane is a lifelong New York Yankees fan. However, the Boston Red Sox drafted him with the 347th pick at the end of the 11th round.
Keane, who was named the 2018-19 Massachusetts Gatorade Player of the Year in May, has a 9-1 record with a 0.35 ERA and 98 strikeouts in 51.2 innings for North Andover High School, per the Eagle-Tribune (via Christopher Smith of MassLive.com).
The Sox clearly didn't hold his Yankees allegiance against him. They should now pay what it takes to sign the prep sensation and hometown hero.
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