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Post by soxfaninnj on Aug 9, 2019 18:23:33 GMT -5
What a fucking atrocious umpire what a joke dude is beyond blind cost us 3 runs at least
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Post by chrisfromnc on Aug 9, 2019 18:30:43 GMT -5
Very glad I managed to miss the entire top of the first inning.
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Post by kevfc89 on Aug 9, 2019 18:36:16 GMT -5
Devers is chasing out of the zone so much recently. Walk rate under 7% now.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 18:40:16 GMT -5
thank god....got one back.....still very upset.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 9, 2019 18:44:55 GMT -5
Gerrit Cole is a year and a half younger than Sale. He’s been a significantly less successful pitcher over his career. He’s also had injury problems, although like Sale they’ve been relatively minor (but still missing significant chunks of two seasons). The Sox got fairly good deal on Sale in terms of both years and AAV specifically because he’d had an injury. He’s getting paid a lot like Patrick Corbin, a few million more per year, but Sale has a far better track record and peak, and doesn’t have a TJ (like DeGrom does as well). Sale has his warts, but they’re largely obscured by his awesomeness. He’s having a down year, but his FIP and xFIP are both quite good, and inconsistency seems to be his real issue. The stuff is still there. I’m not sure there’s much, if anything, to suggest that Cole is destined to be a better pitcher over the next five years. Cole’s ascendancy into league elite coincided with his going to Houston, a team renowned for their analytical ability to optimize pitchers by tinkering with their repertoire/pitch frequencies/sequencing. I’m not entirely convinced Cole will be as good elsewhere. And don’t get me wrong, because I think Cole is terrific. But he’s liable to command a Price-like deal. And he could very easily be worse in Fenway than he is in Houston. ALL pitchers are injury risks; that the Sox paid Sale suggests a certain level of comfort with his issues last year and tells me they don’t expect them to linger. I’m as disappointed as anyone in his year this season, but I don’t see any specific evidence to suggest that it’s the beginning of the end, beyond simple aging. In my opinion, Sale is as good a bet as any pitcher out there to be an “ace” moving forward (ie, perennial Cy Young contender). Kershaw has lost velocity and SL effectiveness, Scherzer is getting up there (as is Verlander), DeGrom is the same age and has a TJ in his past, Kluber is getting older and has had injuries, Cole doesn’t have quite the track record length-wise of those guys nor the peak, and has reached his new level with a team terrific at unlocking pitcher performance. When you factor in 1) the team’s familiarity with his medicals, 2) his success in Boston and fit in the clubhouse, and 3) his relative youth to his peers (the pitchers listed above)and willingness to sign a deal that likely won’t include his real decline phase, and I honestly don’t see a better option, Cole included. Telson -- Again I don't understand. Maybe I'm "thick." 1-- Cole is younger. so that is good. Cole has had less arm injuries the past couple of years, so that is better than Sale's outlook. Cole doesn't have the same violent delivery. Sale has shown a recent decline in his fastball, Cole hasn't. All 4 together in this case here-- what would make us think Sale has teh better futrue outlook? Beucase of what he did in the past? Yes he was superior but if that fatsball is in decline and COleo's at leats for nowisn't how could Sale be considered teh better long-term option? 2-- What do you mean by "inconsistency seems to be his real issue?" Why wouldn't the inconsistency have to do with the velocity of his fastball? If his fastball is in decline his FIP and XFIP will likely go up, won't they? 3-- Yes all pitchers are injury risks but it doesn't mean they are equal risks. But I don't agree with your pov when you imply/say "because the Sox paid that it means we should be comfortable." This very site "warned me" about"violent deliveries." They mention frequently about easy motion etc. Sale is none of this and he had arm troubles last year. 4-- We'll have some fun to talk about 2020 and in the future. IMO Cole will have a superior 3 year run. I don't think Sale is "bad." Not at all. I expect next year a bounce back to some level but I think his fastball year over year will decline and as a result strikeouts will inevitably go down and walks up with higher chance of injury vs Cole looming year over year.
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atzar
Veteran
Posts: 1,817
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Post by atzar on Aug 9, 2019 18:48:33 GMT -5
Much-needed quick inning for BJ.
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Post by soxfaninnj on Aug 9, 2019 18:48:48 GMT -5
thank god....got one back.....still very upset. The thing is when a player is bad at his job he can be benched sent down released etc, but with these umps there is zero accountability. Clown umpire will be umping tomorrow even though there is a good chance he single handily decided the outcome of the game due to his incompetence .
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 19:09:02 GMT -5
Excellent throw by Vasquez !!
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 19:27:49 GMT -5
our guys are missing some dang cookies tonight.
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atzar
Veteran
Posts: 1,817
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Post by atzar on Aug 9, 2019 19:28:43 GMT -5
Didn't miss that cookie!
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,414
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Post by ianrs on Aug 9, 2019 19:29:00 GMT -5
Take that one out of the cookie jar!
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cutz
Veteran
Posts: 2,321
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Post by cutz on Aug 9, 2019 19:29:11 GMT -5
JD ! !
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 19:29:16 GMT -5
Eck called it....the check was coming due on this guy.
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Post by chrisfromnc on Aug 9, 2019 19:31:07 GMT -5
our guys are were missing some dang cookies tonight. FTFY. 😀
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 19:39:41 GMT -5
wait guys...i am just finding out that Wade Miley has a freakin' 3.05 ERA. I mean come on, the Astros have to be cheating somehow.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 19:49:59 GMT -5
Mookie !!!
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cutz
Veteran
Posts: 2,321
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Post by cutz on Aug 9, 2019 19:50:27 GMT -5
Mookie !!
RemDog predicted it too.
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Post by soxfaninnj on Aug 9, 2019 19:53:39 GMT -5
wait guys...i am just finding out that Wade Miley has a freakin' 3.05 ERA. I mean come on, the Astros have to be cheating somehow. Astros with their pitchers and Yankees with their hitters
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 20:02:41 GMT -5
wow....what a great pitch....after a great at bat.
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atzar
Veteran
Posts: 1,817
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Post by atzar on Aug 9, 2019 20:32:32 GMT -5
This game has changed.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 9, 2019 20:34:53 GMT -5
This game is a nice blast of refreshment!
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 9, 2019 20:41:28 GMT -5
Just to rain on everyone's parade, Oakland won and Cleveland up 4-0 looking to add more.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 21:16:30 GMT -5
Just to rain on everyone's parade, Oakland won and Cleveland up 4-0 looking to add more. It's always a sunny parade when the boys are winnin'.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 9, 2019 21:22:43 GMT -5
I brought up prior years because you said "Maybe one year we'll get "ACE" stuff" and we've gotten plenty of ACE stuff from him. I'd bet money on Cole being worse than Sale moving forward and also way more expensive with a longer contract. You cannot just evaluate players on a large handful of starts when they're likely Hall of Fame pitchers. Bounce backs are likely. Sale's contract is so freaking cheap it's ridiculous for a pitcher of his caliber. I brought up Porcello because he only makes $4M per season less than Sale will. Cole: 2.87 ERA, 3.11 FIP, 2.81 xFIP, 12.98 K/9, 2.24 BB/9, LOB% 81.6%, BABIP .279, xwOBA .257 (.292 for his career) Sale: 4.41 ERA, 3.35 FIP, 2.97 xFIP, 13.18 K/9, 2.24 BB/9, LOB% 67.3%, BABIP .312, xwOBA .284 (.271 for his career) And this is in Sale's worst season, while it's Cole's best by far. That LOB% is extremely poor for Sale and extremely too good for Cole, so regression for both of them is a sure thing. Also, you are not considering what moving Cole to the AL East would do to him. Pitching extra games in Yankee Stadium instead of Oakland means something more than you get to see with even league adjusted stats. I usually agree with you but we're on opposite sides of the fence on this for the most part but I'm open to change. When I said "maybe one year we'll get an ACE" I meant future -- not past. The context of my post is about Sale "going forward" - his "contract going forward." Not his past. Further, I don't understand why you bring up "career." It comes down to what he will be in 2020 and beyond. Why would you bring up past when we are talking his contract going forward? I have said on here many times I loved the trade for Sale at the time and throughout his career here. As far as betting i wish we could. From 2020--2022 IMO Cole will be better. I wish I could bet you -- but three years is too long for a bet- so I'll have to decline the bet. Then again I don't like to bet against my teams/players. While you say I "cannot do" I think you "cannot" bring up HOf past and project it any manner going forward. I don't agree any mention of Sale's past unless you think he is "that" going forward. The fact it is worst Sale's worst season (as you mention) yet why not bring up last year's arm injury while bringing up his drop in velocity this year while bringing up his violent delivery while bringing up his age? IMO they should all be a part in projecting in his future - at least much more than what he did 2-5 years ago. As far "vs Yanks" -- if his fastball velocity is down and he is lefty going against a stacked righty team -- why would I believe he is going to pitch well against them going forward? Because he is "Chris Sale?" It doesn't mean I wouldn't sign him but telling me about the yanks-- it's an excuse imo. Sale doesn't need to win the ERA battle or XFIP battle he just needs to be much more effective vs the Yanks than this year's disaster. OFC I expect he will - but how much? I don't know. IMo he is a major risk vs the Yanks going forward if you want to use the Yanks as your barometer. All the above are points I disagree with you on. No way I think Sale is going to stink only that I think they could've spent their money much better for example on COle whom I believe will be superior from 2020 to around 2022. My guess is that's about their shelf life. OFC they might hand on and be "crafty." Anyways, if you want to mention more or less okay I'll listen. ** But I don't disagree with you in terms of the stats you are flashing on me. Maybe they could change things -- I could change my mind-- I just don't understand a lot of times why you and others (maybe the mods too) would flash stats like this if we are discussing "future." I am in no way saying that you're wrong for doing it but -- I'd like to know - why you think they are relevant vs the combination of ERA, velocity decline, recent prior injury, violent delivery (more susceptible to injury) and age?Or--- why shouldn't I use these?
For example why would i care about you flashing me "XFIP" vs the bold? Why reject everything in bold? It is normal for a fastball pitcher who hits 31 in 2020 with injury issues last year to begin his decline shortly, isn't it? With his 31 year age in 2020 why wouldn't I expect a heavy decline in 2020 or 2021 based on the injury as well? I guess that is what makes me thick. There is something I am missing I think. Unfortunately, I'm frustrated that I think DD ignored everything in bold and I feel overpaid when he could have waited. I think we could have done better unless someone could explain why the combination of ERA, velocity decline, recent prior injury, violent delivery (more susceptible to injury) and age, should be overlooked vs the contract he got? All these things in bold don't matter much? Again I'll reiterate I don't think Sale is going to stink. Not at all. Though
I don't understand why I should throw out all of the bold. What am I missing?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 9, 2019 21:29:33 GMT -5
Just to rain on everyone's parade, Oakland won and Cleveland up 4-0 looking to add more. It's always a sunny parade when the boys are winnin'. Plus if Celeveland keeps winning, then they are winning the division and now you have to worry about the Twins, not Celeveland.
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