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2019-20 Red Sox offseason
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 4, 2019 10:48:43 GMT -5
Dustin come on man, just retire and take a golden parachute team job please. The man has earned every chance to try and continue his playing career. He's going to be the last player to wear 15 for this org, will be a Red Sox HOFer, and is a borderline HOFer. He was 7th in MLB in fWAR from 2007-2016. Sorry, I just hate this "please retire" garbage. He took a below-market deal at the time to close his career with this org. He gets to try to come back as many times as he wants.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 4, 2019 10:57:07 GMT -5
Dustin come on man, just retire and take a golden parachute team job please. The Sox have the team and the window to go after it this year, forget about the cap for the most part and just do it. If at the midway point they aren't looking good because the rotation is a mess due to injuries or poor performance then do what you need to do, blow it up. Thing is with all the question marks the team could go either way. Isn't there a direct coorelation between a healthy starting rotation and winning the WS? If the Sox rotation stays healthy and pitches to their ability isn't it one of the best in baseball? Give it a chance don't hamstring it by getting under the cap, it's not like they are losing money either way.
I mean really how many teams go into the season with 3 or 4 guys who could be top 5 in MVP voting along with a potentially great rotation? The timing to get under the cap is terrible but it is what it is. Just go for it as the alternative at this point in time doesn't make sense. Here's the thing, even if money is the ONLY concern... you could shed so much more payroll by letting Price/Sale re-establish their value a little. There's no "trade these aging pitchers before they get hurt and their value tanks" play here; they both ended their seasons hurt and their value is currently tanked. And if you are going to bring those guys back, it means you're probably not going to have a super active off-season in general, at least not in terms of big money moving around.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 4, 2019 13:46:08 GMT -5
Trade the guy to a contending team that could use one year of Mookie? Such as the Red Sox!!!!! I'm not sure what is so hard to figure out about this. One year of Mookie playing for the Red Sox has possibly more value to the Red Sox than for any other team. If you don't trade Mookie, you are not getting nothing for him. You're getting one more full season in a year they should be able to contend for another World Series, in a park where he is much more valuable than in other parks, and when the team has literally no prospects to play CF, when they need two of them. I would absolutely not trade Mookie unless blown away. And I highly doubt they'll get blown away. We're on the same page here.
Harold Reynolds has the reasoning capacity of a head of cabbage.
He's reasoning that if Mookie turns down an extension offer now, then he wouldn't re-sign with the team a year from now. But it doesn't work that way. If it worked that way, no one would have ever become a FA and then re-signed with his team. And it would have been a good idea for every team with a guy in his walk year to have traded that guy.
Players routinely turn down contract extension offers when they believe they can increase their value by having a better season than their last one. They'll even do that when it's wishful thinking. In Mookie's case, he's very likely correct.
I take it more to mean the Red Sox make their best offer and if he won't take it then you trade him. He won't resign because Henry likely wants no part of the crazy contract he could get or is likely to get. They could have resigned Lester after trading him. Our owner didn't want to go higher than the Cubs deal. Ask yourself does our owner seem like a guy that will just pay Betts whatever it takes to resign him? Your point is 100% correct, they could resign him. I just think it comes down to years for our owner, he has a limit. So if Betts wants to go after more, he thinks it's best to trade him now from a value point of view.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 4, 2019 14:05:42 GMT -5
We're on the same page here.
Harold Reynolds has the reasoning capacity of a head of cabbage. He's reasoning that if Mookie turns down an extension offer now, then he wouldn't re-sign with the team a year from now. But it doesn't work that way. If it worked that way, no one would have ever become a FA and then re-signed with his team. And it would have been a good idea for every team with a guy in his walk year to have traded that guy.
Players routinely turn down contract extension offers when they believe they can increase their value by having a better season than their last one. They'll even do that when it's wishful thinking. In Mookie's case, he's very likely correct.
I take it more to mean the Red Sox make their best offer and if he won't take it then you trade him. He won't resign because Henry likely wants no part of the crazy contract he could get or is likely to get. They could have resigned Lester after trading him. Our owner didn't want to go higher than the Cubs deal. Ask yourself does our owner seem like a guy that will just pay Betts whatever it takes to resign him? Your point is 100% correct, they could resign him. I just think it comes down to years for our owner, he has a limit. So if Betts wants to go after more, he thinks it's best to trade him now from a value point of view. I don't disagree with anything you say here, but the threshold for Betts just might be a bit higher for Henry than the typical FA because he is potentially an iconic player in Red Sox history. Even if the contract sucks in years 8+ (which isn't a given) there is still so much residual value for a historic franchise like ours to have an all-time great play his whole career in Boston. He's already a fan favorite for both his play and his personality, give it another decade and he's your next David Ortiz/Yaz/Williams. That has both sentimental and financial value for this franchise that just might warrant a slight overpay in $$ or even years. Very, very curious to see how this all plays out on a lot of levels.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 4, 2019 15:13:17 GMT -5
We're on the same page here.
Harold Reynolds has the reasoning capacity of a head of cabbage.
He's reasoning that if Mookie turns down an extension offer now, then he wouldn't re-sign with the team a year from now. But it doesn't work that way. If it worked that way, no one would have ever become a FA and then re-signed with his team. And it would have been a good idea for every team with a guy in his walk year to have traded that guy.
Players routinely turn down contract extension offers when they believe they can increase their value by having a better season than their last one. They'll even do that when it's wishful thinking. In Mookie's case, he's very likely correct.
If the Red Sox should trade Mookie instead of losing him for nothing, then that same reasoning would make it so that no team should trade for him. Because you can't keep a player for the last year of control? Stupid. And again, people are valuing Mookie's 2020 season as meaning nothing for the Red Sox. I'm so sick of "you can't let Mookie leave for nothing". It's not nothing. It's another full season of his contributions, which has a ton of value for the Red Sox. If the Red Sox trade Mookie, they should trade everyone of value and do a proper rebuild. Contending teams do not make themselves worse on purpose. And there's no way around the Red Sox being worse in 2020 without Mookie than with him. And if anyone has learned anything about baseball in recent years, you're either contending or rebuilding. In between is the worst decision. I cannot imagine that John Henry and Chaim Bloom won't understand this. What I really want them to do is what the Dodgers did when Friedman got there and used their financial muscle to rebuild while contending. They made several trades where they gave up next to nothing for guys with huge salaries and then flipped them along with a lot of money for prospects. That's how they've gotten to where they are now. That seems to be the best blueprint if John Henry doesn't want a normal rebuild. For instance, you could get a haul of prospects if you sent $80 million with David Price, but next to nothing if you sent $10 million. This is how a team could ultimately buy prospects. I will continue to expect Mookie to re-sign with the Red Sox until the day it doesn't happen. Can we be the Dodgers in the AL East? For me the bar is much higher in our Division. Hasn't a big part of the Dodgers strategy been staying away from mega deals? While at the same time building a very deep farm system. If you eat 80 million of Price's salary you get almost no salary relief and can't get below the 208 tax line. Dodgers didn't make moves like that. They did a much better job of planning for their rebuild or reduced spending, whatever you want to call it. While the Dodgers didn't trade a player like Betts, they didn't have one either. Kershaw was willing to sign contract extensions and didn't require massive long-term deals. Couldn't you argue rather easily that trading Betts gets you closer to the Dodgers model? Help rebuild the farm and not have some massive 10-13 year deal on the books? I do agree that using money to get more in trades is Smart, you just need to pick the right time. Wait till Price is healthy and pitching well, then you can get a Grienke like return. You can use that with Betts, if you are willing to pay down his salary you could get a lot more teams in on the trade and greatly increase the return. A guy like Bradley will get you a lot more if you pay a good chunk of his deal. I don't agree trade everyone of value, we have a bunch of young guys. Yet you could trade anyone that isn't in your long-term plans and has good value. If you don't want to pay ERod you can likely get a ton for him right now. A guy like Workman, etc. I don't think Henry wants a full rebuild, but a 1-2 year retool or bridge year type stuff. I'm not saying I agree, but that sure seems like the plan. A very crappy planned plan, but the current plan none the less.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 4, 2019 16:57:17 GMT -5
The Dodgers reset their CBT tax by trading a bunch of their bad contacts (Gonzalez, Kazmir, McCarthy), $4.5M, and Charlie Culberson to the tanking Braves for Matt Kemp's bad contact. In other words, they reset for 2018 at the cost of having to pay Kemp in 2019. They basically pushed 2018 money into 2019. Of note, Gonzo was immediately DFA by Atlanta.
So they're not a good example for the reasons you're using them for.
The word that the Red Sox are looking to move Price or Eovaldi seems to portend they're exploring something like that. Not sure how much you'd get for either unless you were somehow just moving financial obligations around. But of course, neither of those guys is a FA next year.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 4, 2019 21:03:09 GMT -5
The Dodgers reset their CBT tax by trading a bunch of their bad contacts (Gonzalez, Kazmir, McCarthy), $4.5M, and Charlie Culberson to the tanking Braves for Matt Kemp's bad contact. In other words, they reset for 2018 at the cost of having to pay Kemp in 2019. They basically pushed 2018 money into 2019. Of note, Gonzo was immediately DFA by Atlanta. So they're not a good example for the reasons you're using them for. The word that the Red Sox are looking to move Price or Eovaldi seems to portend they're exploring something like that. Not sure how much you'd get for either unless you were somehow just moving financial obligations around. But of course, neither of those guys is a FA next year. If the Red Sox traded Price and $64 million (paying for the 2nd and 3rd season), with the other team paying the $32M for 2020, they could reset and they should also be able to get a decent prospect return.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 4, 2019 21:53:04 GMT -5
Dustin come on man, just retire and take a golden parachute team job please. The man has earned every chance to try and continue his playing career. He's going to be the last player to wear 15 for this org, will be a Red Sox HOFer, and is a borderline HOFer. He was 7th in MLB in fWAR from 2007-2016. Sorry, I just hate this "please retire" garbage. He took a below-market deal at the time to close his career with this org. He gets to try to come back as many times as he wants. So well said to someone who would throw a Red Sox modern day legend under the bus. Every little league, Babe Ruth, HS coach should hold Dustin up an a player to emulate. The guy lives baseball, wants to win, is always the first one into the Clubhouse and who always gets his uniform dirty. His record, ROY, Gold Gloves, MVP, All-Star, etc. speak for itself.
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Post by dangermike on Dec 5, 2019 0:36:54 GMT -5
The man has earned every chance to try and continue his playing career. He's going to be the last player to wear 15 for this org, will be a Red Sox HOFer, and is a borderline HOFer. He was 7th in MLB in fWAR from 2007-2016. Sorry, I just hate this "please retire" garbage. He took a below-market deal at the time to close his career with this org. He gets to try to come back as many times as he wants. So well said to someone who would throw a Red Sox modern day legend under the bus. Every little league, Babe Ruth, HS coach should hold Dustin up an a player to emulate. The guy lives baseball, wants to win, is always the first one into the Clubhouse and who always gets his uniform dirty. His record, ROY, Gold Gloves, MVP, All-Star, etc. speak for itself. he's literally the only jersey i've ever bought and my favorite sox player ever... i still want him to retire. and i want him to retire because he's proven that he's physically unable to play regularly anymore and he's eating valuable payroll. i dont care if the sox give him a spot in the front office and pay him the 30+ mil he's owed but i don't want it to come off the payroll and hamstring the team. i don't think that's too ridiculous to think a player who can no longer perform should hang it up. count me among the "please retire" crowd and i will be first in line to thank pedroia for his tenacity when his number is next to papi's and pedro's
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 5, 2019 2:17:59 GMT -5
The Dodgers reset their CBT tax by trading a bunch of their bad contacts (Gonzalez, Kazmir, McCarthy), $4.5M, and Charlie Culberson to the tanking Braves for Matt Kemp's bad contact. In other words, they reset for 2018 at the cost of having to pay Kemp in 2019. They basically pushed 2018 money into 2019. Of note, Gonzo was immediately DFA by Atlanta. So they're not a good example for the reasons you're using them for. The word that the Red Sox are looking to move Price or Eovaldi seems to portend they're exploring something like that. Not sure how much you'd get for either unless you were somehow just moving financial obligations around. But of course, neither of those guys is a FA next year. If the Red Sox traded Price and $64 million (paying for the 2nd and 3rd season), with the other team paying the $32M for 2020, they could reset and they should also be able to get a decent prospect return. I'd rather have the 64 million. Payroll, even future payroll is just as valuable as any pitching prospect outside of McKenzie Gore (a almost sure fire bet with the talent). If the pitching prospect flames out or busts (which happens frequently), you're on the hook for 64 million for essentially a wasted asset. Not smart management of resources imho.
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Dec 5, 2019 2:22:29 GMT -5
So well said to someone who would throw a Red Sox modern day legend under the bus. Every little league, Babe Ruth, HS coach should hold Dustin up an a player to emulate. The guy lives baseball, wants to win, is always the first one into the Clubhouse and who always gets his uniform dirty. His record, ROY, Gold Gloves, MVP, All-Star, etc. speak for itself. he's literally the only jersey i've ever bought and my favorite sox player ever... i still want him to retire. and i want him to retire because he's proven that he's physically unable to play regularly anymore and he's eating valuable payroll. i dont care if the sox give him a spot in the front office and pay him the 30+ mil he's owed but i don't want it to come off the payroll and hamstring the team. i don't think that's too ridiculous to think a player who can no longer perform should hang it up. count me among the "please retire" crowd and i will be first in line to thank pedroia for his tenacity when his number is next to papi's and pedro's I think it’s ridiculous to ask a player who has given everything for his team to ask him to hang it up and the tens of millions he’s owed. It’s completely ridiculous actually. And, no, it’s a fantasy to think he could just retire and become a 30 million plus front office adviser. You really think the league would allow that? When you sign a player to a fully guaranteed, multi-year contract, injuries are part of the risk involved in it. That’s baseball. Tough luck. Dustin is not the reason the team is in the salary cap situation it’s currently in, nor should he have to be the solution to to getting us out of it. Pedey deserves to determine for himself when his playing career is done. Period.
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Post by texs31 on Dec 5, 2019 8:34:42 GMT -5
I don't have a subscription to the Globe but didn't Speier write an article saying there was no way the Sox are getting out of DPs contract? Was the premise that it was bc he'd never retire or bc retiring wouldn't matter?
EDIT - Got it. In short, both MLB and MLBPA would have issue with it (and justly so) depending on HOW it was done.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 5, 2019 11:36:40 GMT -5
That JBJ for Jake Marisnick swapped that some writer came up with won't come to fruition thankfully. Marisnick was traded to the Mets for a couple of minor leaguers.
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Post by RedSoxStats on Dec 5, 2019 11:51:02 GMT -5
In his story this morning about the Dodgers needing to go for Cole or Betts, Rosenthal mentions [according to multiple sources] the Sox are trying to dump a high priced starter. He doesn't go on to say what that path would lead to this winter.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 5, 2019 12:06:20 GMT -5
In his story this morning about the Dodgers needing to go for Cole or Betts, Rosenthal mentions [according to multiple sources] the Sox are trying to dump a high priced starter. He doesn't go on to say what that path would lead to this winter. Good luck to the Red Sox with that. I won't say it's impossible. I'll just say there's going to have to be a ton of creativity here to make this work. I think it's better for the team on the field if it's Eovaldi that goes, but I think at this point Price is the best bet to stay healthy and effective, but I still don't think he has the ability to do what Chris Sale can do if he's healthy enough for long enough. I do hope that Sale remains with the Red Sox, but that's all I hope for at this point, and saying that despite knowing he could wind up being one of the worst contracts the Sox have ever had - but, still I hold out hope that the Chris Sale that we've seen in the past will be the Chris Sale we get for a good chunk of his remaining contract at some point, even though I wouldn't bet money on that.
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Post by PedroKsBambino on Dec 5, 2019 12:59:49 GMT -5
Jeff Passan of ESPN also said that the Sox are shopping their high priced starters to create financial flexibility. I bet someone will trade for Price after they lose out on Cole/Strasburg. Bloom will have to get creative but maybe a deal with the Angels involving Upton, the Rangers involving Choo/Mazara or Odor, or the Dodgers involving Pollock. Should definately be an interesting next few weeks
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 5, 2019 13:28:50 GMT -5
Dustin come on man, just retire and take a golden parachute team job please. The man has earned every chance to try and continue his playing career. He's going to be the last player to wear 15 for this org, will be a Red Sox HOFer, and is a borderline HOFer. He was 7th in MLB in fWAR from 2007-2016. Sorry, I just hate this "please retire" garbage. He took a below-market deal at the time to close his career with this org. He gets to try to come back as many times as he wants. "Please retire" garbage and you are a moderator? I mean really am I the only one who feels that way? I don't think so and I don't think it is out of line at all to suggest. It is certainly not garbage. I love the guy, have to admit I loved him less when he felt forced to be a leader, but it has been 3 years. Loved him for his play, his laser show persona, the fact he gave the team a deal, all of it. But is their any sign he will ever be able to play again? Not that I have seen. Sure give the man his money as an exec. but is their any signs he can play. Their is a business side to this also. Who and how much do they lose by keeping him around for nostalgic sake?
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 5, 2019 14:35:03 GMT -5
The man has earned every chance to try and continue his playing career. He's going to be the last player to wear 15 for this org, will be a Red Sox HOFer, and is a borderline HOFer. He was 7th in MLB in fWAR from 2007-2016. Sorry, I just hate this "please retire" garbage. He took a below-market deal at the time to close his career with this org. He gets to try to come back as many times as he wants. "Please retire" garbage and you are a moderator? I mean really am I the only one who feels that way? I don't think so and I don't think it is out of line at all to suggest. It is certainly not garbage. I love the guy, have to admit I loved him less when he felt forced to be a leader, but it has been 3 years. Loved him for his play, his laser show persona, the fact he gave the team a deal, all of it. But is their any sign he will ever be able to play again? Not that I have seen. Sure give the man his money as an exec. but is their any signs he can play. Their is a business side to this also. Who and how much do they lose by keeping him around for nostalgic sake? It's just not possible. The choices are for Pedroia to sacrifice $30 million that he is owed and has earned or for him to continue getting paid. Paying him $15M per year to coach or be an adviser isn't going to fly. The league will say "hell no". I don't want him to give up $30 million because the Red Sox have been pretty terrible with money. The only thing left is either to wait for Pedroia to continue to try to come back or for the Red Sox to just tell him to stay home and keep paying him. Those are the only two realistic options. Complaining about it is just as useful as complaining about the weather. There's nothing that can be done about it. I understand that it's frustrating, but there are a lot of really stupid Red Sox fans on the internet who have pure disdain for him and absolutely no appreciation for what he has done for the Red Sox. That's why it's hard to separate people who want him to retire. The guy has given up his body for the Red Sox and will likely be in pain for the rest of his life. I imagine he'll get a knee replacement soon after retiring.
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Post by texs31 on Dec 5, 2019 14:38:02 GMT -5
That's the crux of Alex' piece. If he walks away completely, the MLBPA will be pissed. If he walks away with some job/understanding, MLB will be pissed.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 5, 2019 16:38:17 GMT -5
The man has earned every chance to try and continue his playing career. He's going to be the last player to wear 15 for this org, will be a Red Sox HOFer, and is a borderline HOFer. He was 7th in MLB in fWAR from 2007-2016. Sorry, I just hate this "please retire" garbage. He took a below-market deal at the time to close his career with this org. He gets to try to come back as many times as he wants. "Please retire" garbage and you are a moderator? I mean really am I the only one who feels that way? I don't think so and I don't think it is out of line at all to suggest. It is certainly not garbage. I love the guy, have to admit I loved him less when he felt forced to be a leader, but it has been 3 years. Loved him for his play, his laser show persona, the fact he gave the team a deal, all of it. But is their any sign he will ever be able to play again? Not that I have seen. Sure give the man his money as an exec. but is their any signs he can play. Their is a business side to this also. Who and how much do they lose by keeping him around for nostalgic sake? No one is failing to understand your argument, so, you know... don't feel obligated to state it repeatedly. Most of us are just closer to Chris' feelings on the matter.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Dec 5, 2019 16:48:43 GMT -5
That's the crux of Alex' piece. If he walks away completely, the MLBPA will be pissed. If he walks away with some job/understanding, MLB will be pissed. Unions (all) stay pissed, so that's a non issue. It boils down to whether or not Pedroia wants to give up close to 30m or not and judge that with his close ties with the organization he has regarded as Home. I'm with Chris and many others here. He has 2x given the organization deep discounts with extensions and believe he should take what is left coming to him and then work in the organization with another title should he wish to
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 6, 2019 13:21:22 GMT -5
Let's say they can trade Price to clear payroll. What do you do for starters? You still won't have the money to add impact guys in free agency.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Dec 6, 2019 13:30:02 GMT -5
I fail to understand the baseball reasoning of trying to pay someone else to take both David Price and Chris Sale. Neither of those guys are what are termed as salary dump players, such as Choo, Chris Davis, Pujols etc.. Price, whose name gets thrown out the most is still a mid rotation starter, more than capable of giving 150+ innings of solid innings and while not worth 30m, it would cost several million to replace his spot in the rotation for a team that has no replacements.
The only expensive member of the rotation possible that could be looked at to move would/should be Eovaldi and he's not as bad of a dump type players as those mentioned above.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 6, 2019 14:03:13 GMT -5
Yeah, there seems to be a weird bit of underpants gnome logic that's been kicking around this off-season:
1. Get rid of some of our best players. 2. ... 3. Profit!
It's possible there's some sort of elaborate scheme to shed salary and re-make a competitive roster for 2020 and beyond, but in the absence of, you know, an actual plan along those lines, I don't see what the benefits would be.
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Post by kingstephanos on Dec 6, 2019 14:36:41 GMT -5
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