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Post by jdb on Feb 5, 2020 10:30:34 GMT -5
All things considering I think we did pretty good. Sucks to lose Mookie but I’m in the minority on Price and I think he could very well be an albatross with that elbow and mileage. This time last year according to baseball prospectus Verdugo was the 19th prospect while Grateral was 33. Since then Verdugo has proved he can hit MLB pitching and can probably have some all star seasons while Grateral pitches well in the minors.
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Post by TheCerebral1 on Feb 5, 2020 10:39:19 GMT -5
I don't understand how Gonsolin goes to LAA for Pederson. How did he not get included.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 5, 2020 10:40:32 GMT -5
I don't understand how Gonsolin goes to LAA for Pederson. How did he not get included. Huh?
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 11:01:44 GMT -5
The other thing about this is that the Sox are giving up a year of Mookie and a compensation pick... so the guess is that these two prospects are better than that year of Betts, Price, and whomever they get for that pick.
As I said elsewhere, if you are committing yourself to not contending for the medium future, why not keep the exciting guy? Verdugo might turn out to be decent, but he is not going to be a guy who makes them a contender now or 3 years from now.
This moves demands more dumping. They have to hope Sale gets off to a good start and trade him. Ditto Eovaldi. Sox in, what, 2024? 2025?
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Post by costpet on Feb 5, 2020 11:21:13 GMT -5
I agree they need more dumping. If you're going to dump, dump. Get some good prospects and fix the payroll. Trade Sale, Evoldi, and Bradley. Then we'll look more like the Rays without the pitching development. If this is an indication of what Henry wants, then let him have it. Raise the ticket prices. And watch the attendance go down. Nobody will watch NESN. Then he'll sell. Hopefully.
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 11:23:45 GMT -5
I agree they need more dumping. If you're going to dump, dump. Get some good prospects and fix the payroll. Trade Sale, Evoldi, and Bradley. Then we'll look more like the Rays without the pitching development. If this is an indication of what Henry wants, then let him have it. Raise the ticket prices. And watch the attendance go down. Nobody will watch NESN. Then he'll sell. Hopefully. This might be the first time I don’t bother buying the MLB package. I can watch losers, I even watched Valentine’s team, but... this is going to be so dull.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 5, 2020 11:28:56 GMT -5
I agree they need more dumping. If you're going to dump, dump. Get some good prospects and fix the payroll. Trade Sale, Evoldi, and Bradley. Then we'll look more like the Rays without the pitching development. If this is an indication of what Henry wants, then let him have it. Raise the ticket prices. And watch the attendance go down. Nobody will watch NESN. Then he'll sell. Hopefully. This might be the first time I don’t bother buying the MLB package. I can watch losers, I even watched Valentine’s team, but... this is going to be so dull. I suppose the sliver lining here is that I'm actually permitted stream games involving my favorite player now. Tight ship you're running here MLB, can't imagine why you're having problems growing your audience.
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ianrs
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Posts: 2,418
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Post by ianrs on Feb 5, 2020 11:30:54 GMT -5
This trade has no upside because even if Brusdar Graterol turns into an ace, we will have to suffer years of misspellings of his name on the forums. Truly devastating.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 11:32:13 GMT -5
I agree they need more dumping. If you're going to dump, dump. Get some good prospects and fix the payroll. Trade Sale, Evoldi, and Bradley. Then we'll look more like the Rays without the pitching development. If this is an indication of what Henry wants, then let him have it. Raise the ticket prices. And watch the attendance go down. Nobody will watch NESN. Then he'll sell. Hopefully. Just curious, do you like the Celtics? Do you wish ownership would sell? It's just really odd that even despite this debacle and absolute mess that this is still the same ownership that has brought 4 championships since it took over after not winning for 86 years, dysfunction and all. This sucks because multiple things are happening simultaneously, but one of the main problems is that Dombrowski didn't manager their books and now Mookie Betts is the causality of over-spending for Eovaldi and Sale. If I had my choice, I'd rather Betts than both of them and that's even factoring David Price. There's also the fact that the organization doesn't value Betts as a $420 million player. That's a factor that doesn't matter how much payroll flexibility they have. The return was less than stellar. I voted it was just to be a troll. In reality, it's closer to the second option. The return could have been much, much better, but posters and the organization alike wanted the 2019 Red Sox to keep going for it instead of punting on the season. They chose the worst possible option of standing pat rather than buying or selling (if they were going to keep taking a shot at it then improve the rotation and/or pen). The rise in ticket prices is despicable, considering where they're going with this team. Good luck selling tickets and getting viewers on a Wednesday night against KC when you're fighting for 3rd place in your own division and 8 games behind the second Wild Card. I want to support this team during a transition. It's just incredible how they have the gaul to raise the price for a worse product.
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Post by brendan98 on Feb 5, 2020 11:32:55 GMT -5
Random thoughts on this: - It’s a shame that the Sox got to this point with Mookie, but I’m not sure Mookie wanted to stay or at the very least was willing to do anything other than get to free agency and test the market. I wanted Mookie to stay in Boston, but honestly don’t love the idea of paying him for 10+ years at $35M+ a year, and barring injury that is likely where his contract will land. - I’m glad the Sox got something of value for Mookie. I like Verdugo as a player and 5 years of control of Verdugo is definitely a good get for a year of Mookie at almost $30M. - Graterol’s minor league numbers, development and stuff, at 21 years old is pretty impressive. I think it is possible he was a guy that Bloom really wanted. I wouldn’t rule out starting for this kid, I think the Twins converted him last year because they had a need for a power arm in their bullpen, he has been successful as a starter in his career. - I would have liked for the Sox to get more, I was excited when Gammons said Jeter Downs and Caleb Ferguson along with Verdugo was a possibility, but unfortunately I think Gammons makes crap up a lot of the time. - Dombrowski was the architect of one of the greatest single seasons the sport has ever seen, but he left the Red Sox and Chaim Bloom a mess. The Sox have a solid everyday lineup on the positive side, but also a bloated payroll (even after trading away Mookie and Price), a mediocre pitching staff, and a depleted farm system. Dombrowski sold the farm (figuratively and literally) to win a World Championship, and Chaim Bloom was brought in to hit the reset button and begin to repair the damage, this trade was Bloom hitting the reset button.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 5, 2020 11:32:57 GMT -5
This trade has no upside because even if Brusdar Graterol turns into an ace, we will have to suffer years of misspellings of his name on the forums. Truly devastating. This is a great point, he's the #1 contender in the Anthony Renauldo rankings.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 5, 2020 11:39:39 GMT -5
Just curious, do you like the Celtics? Do you wish ownership would sell? It's just really odd that even despite this debacle and absolute mess that this is still the same ownership that has brought 4 championships since it took over after not winning for 86 years, dysfunction and all I know that a lot of people will absolutely never be able to grok this, but there's an valid argument that the Red Sox won those championships in spite of this ownership group. Terry Francona is wearing two Red Sox World Series rings and these people made him a scapegoat for their own bad decisions and called him an f'ing drug addict on the way out of town. I'll give him a thousand times the credit I'll ever give Henry and co.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 5, 2020 11:41:52 GMT -5
- I would have liked for the Sox to get more, I was excited when Gammons said Jeter Downs and Caleb Ferguson along with Verdugo was a possibility, but unfortunately I think Gammons makes crap up a lot of the time.I'm guessing the Red Sox fed him that in a last ditch attempt to get some kind of leverage on the Padres.
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 11:42:38 GMT -5
I don’t care about ownership.... they are neither the best nor the worst. I operate under the assumption that they simply expected not to be able to resign Mookie even with good faith efforts. Fine. My beef is with the idea that this move is better than a year of Mookie and a pick. They got back about as little as they could for what they gave up.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 5, 2020 11:44:10 GMT -5
I don’t care about ownership.... they are neither the best nor the worst. I operate under the assumption that they simply expected not to be able to resign Mookie even with good faith efforts. Fine. My beef is with the idea that this move is better than a year of Mookie and a pick. They got back about as little as they could for what they gave up. It might also have helped if they haven't telegraphed this whole thing from the start, leaving their new GM to negotiate from a point of weakness.
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Post by PedroKsBambino on Feb 5, 2020 11:46:21 GMT -5
Angels are getting Ross Stripling and Pederson for Rengifo and prospects. Gonsolin not involved
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 11:48:46 GMT -5
Just curious, do you like the Celtics? Do you wish ownership would sell? It's just really odd that even despite this debacle and absolute mess that this is still the same ownership that has brought 4 championships since it took over after not winning for 86 years, dysfunction and all I know that a lot of people will absolutely never be able to grok this, but there's an valid argument that the Red Sox won those championships in spite of this ownership group. Terry Francona is wearing two Red Sox World Series rings and these people made him a scapegoat for their own bad decisions and called him an f'ing drug addict on the way out of town. I'll give him a thousand times the credit I'll ever give Henry and co. That's not really fair. They have 4 rings with 3 GMs and 3 managers. They have to be doing something right.
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cdj
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Posts: 14,082
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 11:49:50 GMT -5
I don’t care about ownership.... they are neither the best nor the worst. I operate under the assumption that they simply expected not to be able to resign Mookie even with good faith efforts. Fine. My beef is with the idea that this move is better than a year of Mookie and a pick. They got back about as little as they could for what they gave up. Out of all the things to get mad about I do not think losing a Potential fourth round pick as compensation is one of them
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Post by orion09 on Feb 5, 2020 11:51:23 GMT -5
- I would have liked for the Sox to get more, I was excited when Gammons said Jeter Downs and Caleb Ferguson along with Verdugo was a possibility, but unfortunately I think Gammons makes crap up a lot of the time.I'm guessing the Red Sox fed him that in a last ditch attempt to get some kind of leverage on the Padres. Yes, that was my thought too.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 5, 2020 11:56:02 GMT -5
That's not really fair. They have 4 rings with 3 GMs and 3 managers. They have to be doing something right.Sure, and Sandy Leon indisputably did a lot of stuff right to play in the major leagues. That doesn't make him a flawless or even good player. It is just super weird to me to assume that the people who brought you Bobby Valentine are super-geniuses who deserve total credit for engineering this run of championships.
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nomar
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Posts: 10,828
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Post by nomar on Feb 5, 2020 11:56:31 GMT -5
I have a hard time believing anyone in baseball thinks Gammons has an effect on anything. The poor old guy loves the game but he’s losing it.
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 12:07:00 GMT -5
I don’t care about ownership.... they are neither the best nor the worst. I operate under the assumption that they simply expected not to be able to resign Mookie even with good faith efforts. Fine. My beef is with the idea that this move is better than a year of Mookie and a pick. They got back about as little as they could for what they gave up. Out of all the things to get mad about I do not think losing a Potential fourth round pick as compensation is one of them It is a piece. My point is Mookie+Price+pick to get a guy who might hit a lot of doubles and a relief pitcher is brutal. And... a pick fits where they are. This remains a team with no great near future, badly out-talented by the Yankees. Long term future? Not much better for this trade.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 5, 2020 12:13:32 GMT -5
This trade has no upside because even if Brusdar Graterol turns into an ace, we will have to suffer years of misspellings of his name on the forums. Truly devastating. Now there's enough money to sign Buckholtz.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Feb 5, 2020 12:15:23 GMT -5
Out of all the things to get mad about I do not think losing a Potential fourth round pick as compensation is one of them It is a piece. My point is Mookie+Price+pick to get a guy who might hit a lot of doubles and a relief pitcher is brutal. And... a pick fits where they are. This remains a team with no great near future, badly out-talented by the Yankees. Long term future? Not much better for this trade. Yeah, screw doubles! Honestly, I expected better from this board. It's reasonable to be upset about trading Mookie on principle, but Verdugo and Graterol are good pieces, and anyone claiming otherwise is just throwing a childish tantrum.
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 12:23:50 GMT -5
It is a piece. My point is Mookie+Price+pick to get a guy who might hit a lot of doubles and a relief pitcher is brutal. And... a pick fits where they are. This remains a team with no great near future, badly out-talented by the Yankees. Long term future? Not much better for this trade. Yeah, screw doubles! Honestly, I expected better from this board. It's reasonable to be upset about trading Mookie on principle, but Verdugo and Graterol are good pieces, and anyone claiming otherwise is just throwing a childish tantrum. Doubles are good. I like Beni. An outfield of Beni, Verdugo, and Bradley is exceedingly underwhelming. Good pieces is the problem. You trade your star for pieces to a puzzle that is otherwise not so good... that’s not so good. Put differently, where does this leave the Sox? They won 84 games last year and now traded their #2 starter and best player. I don’t think anyone doubts that is a downgrade. But.... controllable! So fine: 2 years from now they have an old Sale, Eovaldi(?), and Erod. Maaaaaybee Groome/Mata, but that is it for even starting prospects. Casas (but likely not JDM, so kind of a push). And this gets them under the tax but doesn’t necessarily give them an open spigot of FA money. I don’t think Betts changes most of the gloom vis-a-vis win/loss, but at least he makes it a team I’m happier to like. Not just because he is generational, but because they stuck with their home grown guy to the end.
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