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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2020 12:30:46 GMT -5
Yeah, screw doubles! Honestly, I expected better from this board. It's reasonable to be upset about trading Mookie on principle, but Verdugo and Graterol are good pieces, and anyone claiming otherwise is just throwing a childish tantrum. Doubles are good. I like Beni. An outfield of Beni, Verdugo, and Bradley is exceedingly underwhelming. Good pieces is the problem. You trade your star for pieces to a puzzle that is otherwise not so good... that’s not so good. Put differently, where does this leave the Sox? They won 84 games last year and now traded their #2 starter and best player. I don’t think anyone doubts that is a downgrade. But.... controllable! So fine: 2 years from now they have an old Sale, Eovaldi(?), and Erod. Maaaaaybee Groome/Mata, but that is it for even starting prospects. Casas (but likely not JDM, so kind of a push). And this gets them under the tax but doesn’t necessarily give them an open spigot of FA money. I don’t think Betts changes most of the gloom vis-a-vis win/loss, but at least he makes it a team I’m happier to like. Not just because he is generational, but because they stuck with their home grown guy to the end. They lost their manager too, which won't help. And they have not improved their team one bit since July 2018. There is nothing they did in 2019 that improved their team and they have worsened it in 2020 and unless the farm starts developing soon and there's no indication that they have a lot of top tier talent on the near horizon, then yeah, unless Bloom does some serious bargain basement hunting that produces the next Ortiz or signs free agents that work out (most don't), they could be mediocre for quite some time.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Feb 5, 2020 12:34:19 GMT -5
Yeah, screw doubles! Honestly, I expected better from this board. It's reasonable to be upset about trading Mookie on principle, but Verdugo and Graterol are good pieces, and anyone claiming otherwise is just throwing a childish tantrum. Doubles are good. I like Beni. An outfield of Beni, Verdugo, and Bradley is exceedingly underwhelming. Good pieces is the problem. You trade your star for pieces to a puzzle that is otherwise not so good... that’s not so good. Put differently, where does this leave the Sox? They won 84 games last year and now traded their #2 starter and best player. I don’t think anyone doubts that is a downgrade. But.... controllable! So fine: 2 years from now they have an old Sale, Eovaldi(?), and Erod. Maaaaaybee Groome/Mata, but that is it for even starting prospects. Casas (but likely not JDM, so kind of a push). And this gets them under the tax but doesn’t necessarily give them an open spigot of FA money. I don’t think Betts changes most of the gloom vis-a-vis win/loss, but at least he makes it a team I’m happier to like. Not just because he is generational, but because they stuck with their home grown guy to the end. They clearly think Graterol is a starter. I don't know how it became a consensus around here that he's an eighth inning arm, but he would not be on everybody's top 100 list if that was a sure thing. He's a risk, no doubt, but so is literally every pitching prospect.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 12:37:52 GMT -5
Doubles are good. I like Beni. An outfield of Beni, Verdugo, and Bradley is exceedingly underwhelming. Good pieces is the problem. You trade your star for pieces to a puzzle that is otherwise not so good... that’s not so good. Put differently, where does this leave the Sox? They won 84 games last year and now traded their #2 starter and best player. I don’t think anyone doubts that is a downgrade. But.... controllable! So fine: 2 years from now they have an old Sale, Eovaldi(?), and Erod. Maaaaaybee Groome/Mata, but that is it for even starting prospects. Casas (but likely not JDM, so kind of a push). And this gets them under the tax but doesn’t necessarily give them an open spigot of FA money. I don’t think Betts changes most of the gloom vis-a-vis win/loss, but at least he makes it a team I’m happier to like. Not just because he is generational, but because they stuck with their home grown guy to the end. They clearly think Graterol is a starter. I don't know how it became a consensus around here that he's an eighth inning arm, but he would not be on everybody's top 100 list if that was a sure thing. He's a risk, no doubt, but so is literally every pitching prospect. That’s just people downplaying what we got back so they can be more emo about the trade
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 12:38:23 GMT -5
Doubles are good. I like Beni. An outfield of Beni, Verdugo, and Bradley is exceedingly underwhelming. Good pieces is the problem. You trade your star for pieces to a puzzle that is otherwise not so good... that’s not so good. Put differently, where does this leave the Sox? They won 84 games last year and now traded their #2 starter and best player. I don’t think anyone doubts that is a downgrade. But.... controllable! So fine: 2 years from now they have an old Sale, Eovaldi(?), and Erod. Maaaaaybee Groome/Mata, but that is it for even starting prospects. Casas (but likely not JDM, so kind of a push). And this gets them under the tax but doesn’t necessarily give them an open spigot of FA money. I don’t think Betts changes most of the gloom vis-a-vis win/loss, but at least he makes it a team I’m happier to like. Not just because he is generational, but because they stuck with their home grown guy to the end. They clearly think Graterol is a starter. I don't know how it became a consensus around here that he's an eighth inning arm, but he would not be on everybody's top 100 list if that was a sure thing. He's a risk, no doubt, but so is literally every pitching prospect. Fair, but I think it is more appropriate to hope he is anything than to pencil him in as a starter. He looks like a 2-pitch guy who has thrown under 200 innings since TJ surgery. I guess maybe he turns into an Eovaldi. That’s... ok?
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Post by soxfanatic on Feb 5, 2020 12:40:01 GMT -5
They clearly think Graterol is a starter. I don't know how it became a consensus around here that he's an eighth inning arm, but he would not be on everybody's top 100 list if that was a sure thing. He's a risk, no doubt, but so is literally every pitching prospect. Fair, but I think it is more appropriate to hope he is anything than to pencil him in as a starter. He looks like a 2-pitch guy who has thrown under 200 innings since TJ surgery. I guess maybe he turns into an Eovaldi. That’s... ok? He's also reached the big leagues as a 21 yr old. How many of those did we develop in the past 10 years?
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 12:41:56 GMT -5
Fair, but I think it is more appropriate to hope he is anything than to pencil him in as a starter. He looks like a 2-pitch guy who has thrown under 200 innings since TJ surgery. I guess maybe he turns into an Eovaldi. That’s... ok? He's also reached the big leagues as a 21 yr old. How many of those did we develop in the past 10 years? I don’t know what that means. He pitched 10 innings for the Twins. I guess it doesn’t prove anything to me either way. Would Groome have a better future if the Sox let him start a game last September?
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Post by soxfanatic on Feb 5, 2020 12:46:17 GMT -5
He's also reached the big leagues as a 21 yr old. How many of those did we develop in the past 10 years? I don’t know what that means. He pitched 10 innings for the Twins. I guess it doesn’t prove anything to me either way. Would Groome have a better future if the Sox let him start a game last September? You know what I mean
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 12:48:03 GMT -5
I don’t know what that means. He pitched 10 innings for the Twins. I guess it doesn’t prove anything to me either way. Would Groome have a better future if the Sox let him start a game last September? You know what I mean I know what YOU mean, but I don’t think it means anything in terms of projection other than that the Twins gave a guy a taste of the majors in a season they needed bullpen help.
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 12:49:44 GMT -5
I know what YOU mean, but I don’t think it means anything in terms of projection other than that the Twins gave a guy a taste of the majors in a season they needed bullpen help. They pitched him in the playoffs last year. The second you mentioned Groome you were being willfully obtuse He earned his way to the majors at a young age. Absolutely annihilated AA pitching then hit the juiced ball and did well enough
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 12:58:08 GMT -5
I know what YOU mean, but I don’t think it means anything in terms of projection other than that the Twins gave a guy a taste of the majors in a season they needed bullpen help. They pitched him in the playoffs last year. The second you mentioned Groome you were being willfully obtuse He earned his way to the majors at a young age. Absolutely annihilated AA pitching then hit the juiced ball and did well enough I hope you are right. Annihilated is a tad strong. He k’d 8.5/9 and pitched 52.2 innings. He might be good. But let’s throw him in... Groome, Mata, Graterol. That is every egg in the basket. If trading Betts is supposed to be for the longterm improvement, it doesn’t appear to have left the Sox in an especially good place. And I amazed at how little people factor in Price. Yeah, he is not capable of performance for his pay grade, but he has actually been quite good for the Sox. A team that is offered Price at half pay is not just doing the Sox a favor... they are getting a genuine good commodity. The Dodgers trading Maeda and getting Price is potentially an upgrade for them. The idea that the Sox are getting LESS to add in a guy who is actually still a valuable arm chafes my hide.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 5, 2020 13:06:55 GMT -5
Graterol made the majors at age 20 and that's also including missing close to 2 years for TJS. I mean he's kind of the guy that we hoped Espinoza was going to be.
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Post by soxcentral on Feb 5, 2020 13:07:37 GMT -5
Gotta grade this as incomplete. We didn't get a huge haul, but we did get two potentially strong long-term pieces today. Both have risks, not so much Verdugo as he'll need to pass a physical for this to be official. But a pitcher with shoulder pain and TJ history is a risk no matter his skill set. Anderson Espinoza can tell you all about potential.
That said, we do now have the payroll flexibility to take advantage of opportunities once again, and we have a deeper young core. My hope is that opportunity is a re-sign of Betts next year which would move this trade into the win category, especially considering the state of our organization headed into this season whether Betts stayed or not.
Big risk, big potential reward. It's a gamblers trade, for sure.
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Post by awall on Feb 5, 2020 13:20:44 GMT -5
Is anyone "in the know" available to summarize what the draft/international money implications of not getting under the cap this year would have been going forward?
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 5, 2020 13:43:06 GMT -5
Let's say they threw all the money in the world at Mookie, like some of you seem to be suggesting they should have. If that's the case, they probably can't extend Devers. Unless you just want to have those two and a bunch of 0.5 WAR guys.
You can't win without stars. Obviously. But you have the luxury to trade your star and sacrifice wins in 2020 when you still have two more young stars that are already really good that give you a window in 2021 and on.
It sucks to lose Mookie, but it'd suck to lose Devers too.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Feb 5, 2020 13:46:13 GMT -5
Let's say they threw all the money in the world at Mookie, like some of you seem to be suggesting they should have. If that's the case, they probably can't extend Devers. Unless you just want to have those two and a bunch of 0.5 WAR guys. You can't win without stars. Obviously. But you have the luxury to trade your star and sacrifice wins in 2020 when you still have two more young stars that are already really good that give you a window in 2021 and on. It sucks to lose Mookie, but it'd suck to lose Devers too. This just isn't true, at all. It wouldn't be "all the money", it'd be ~$35m annually. The wasted money on Sandoval and Hanley exceeded that, and that didn't stop them from signing Sale, Eovaldi, Bogaerts, etc. Also, how does this trade give them a window for 2021? The only scenario where they can contend in 2021 is if Sale, Eovaldi, and others rebound along with some breakouts, and in that case they likely would've contended this season with Mookie and Price. If you didn't believe in this team this year I can't understand how 2021 would look like a contender.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 5, 2020 13:48:05 GMT -5
Let's say they threw all the money in the world at Mookie, like some of you seem to be suggesting they should have. If that's the case, they probably can't extend Devers. Unless you just want to have those two and a bunch of 0.5 WAR guys. You can't win without stars. Obviously. But you have the luxury to trade your star and sacrifice wins in 2020 when you still have two more young stars that are already really good that give you a window in 2021 and on. It sucks to lose Mookie, but it'd suck to lose Devers too. Devers would not hit free agency until after the 2023 season. They have $47.5 million committed in 2024. They could have both Betts and Devers to massive $40M AAV contracts apiece, still have Sale and Bogaerts under their contracts, and have $80 million left over. And that's if the CBT threshold doesn't change, which would mean they aren't playing baseball because there's a strike. The whole argument is that this move creates more flexibility in the meantime, it has absolutely nothing to do with a Devers extension.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 13:52:39 GMT -5
The more I think of it Graterol is a more advanced version of Mata
They pretty much have the exact same question marks, although Mata got himself into good shape per the reports here. Graterol just throws harder
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 5, 2020 13:57:38 GMT -5
Bashing the return isn't too smart. I highly doubt that Bloom was sitting there pondering taking what they got and decided to throw in $50 million to help pay Price's contract. And the rumors were obviously a bunch of total crap leaks by the Red Sox to try to up the bidding war. These people do not run the team because they're dumber than a bunch of tantrum throwing fans.
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Post by dirtdog on Feb 5, 2020 14:02:57 GMT -5
Bloom had a gun to each side of his head. One from management and one from Mookie. As such the Sox had little leverage. Verdugo is still rumor ed to have back issues. We will see. When healthy he reminds me of a Latin lenny Dykstra. Gundarwill depend on health and whether he develops into a reliable closer. Personally I would have preferred a starter or another position player.
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Post by kman22 on Feb 5, 2020 14:21:11 GMT -5
With one of the concerns around Graterol being the innings, couldn't he be an ideal candidate in an opener role. Let's him contribute sooner, acclimate him to the Red Sox program, and go into the offseason with the goal of being a regular starter? Maybe not the best use of service time, but brainstorming.
If this has already been suggested or mentioned, my bad, can't keep up over the last 24 hours.
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Post by soxcentral on Feb 5, 2020 14:25:55 GMT -5
With one of the concerns around Graterol being the innings, couldn't he be an ideal candidate in an opener role. Let's him contribute sooner, acclimate him to the Red Sox program, and go into the offseason with the goal of being a regular starter? Maybe not the best use of service time, but brainstorming. If this has already been suggested or mentioned, my bad, can't keep up over the last 24 hours. He and Darwinzon Hernandez might make for a lethal pairing if that's where they're headed.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 14:46:02 GMT -5
With one of the concerns around Graterol being the innings, couldn't he be an ideal candidate in an opener role. Let's him contribute sooner, acclimate him to the Red Sox program, and go into the offseason with the goal of being a regular starter? Maybe not the best use of service time, but brainstorming. If this has already been suggested or mentioned, my bad, can't keep up over the last 24 hours. He and Darwinzon Hernandez might make for a lethal pairing if that's where they're headed. I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I completely forgot about his existence. Are they 100% done with him as a potential starter? I feel like 2020 is the year to try him and Graterol since you've got nothing to lose.
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Post by soxin8 on Feb 5, 2020 15:46:56 GMT -5
There's a lot to like here. Thanks for posting this. I think we all got built up dreaming on Dodgers prospects and what the Sox were reportedly getting and disappointment is natural. As kman said, I am wondering about his innings this year since he only threw 70 last year, if he will even be considered for a starter role. Would the innings limit be around 100 after already having one TJ surgery? jimed, glad you are taking this so well. I wish like others we had another name or two to discuss coming back.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 15:55:41 GMT -5
Graterol looks like he wears the weight well. Doesn’t look 6’1 265 lol
He’s obviously big and will have to monitor it but it’s not overly troublesome
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Post by brendan98 on Feb 5, 2020 16:10:15 GMT -5
Graterol looks like he wears the weight well. Doesn’t look 6’1 265 lol He’s obviously big and will have to monitor it but it’s not overly troublesome Came on just to say the same thing, when I saw 6'1" 265 lbs I thought Rich Garces, this kid is a built like a bull.
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