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Red Sox FA Target: Corey Kluber
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,029
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Post by cdj on Jan 16, 2021 0:07:13 GMT -5
Kluber is probably in the final stretch of his career and the Yankees do seemingly provide a much better opportunity at a WS in the immediate. It’s still kinda local to his offseason home and family. The game isn’t played on paper but still- I bet that proximity to a ring was at least a little factor
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jan 16, 2021 4:31:56 GMT -5
don't know the whole story here, but the team could obviously use starting pitching. The MFY are probably a better fit if a guy wants to challenge for a WS, as has been said.
I don't think Bloom is / would be against big FA splashes, but he may be more judicious than pvs Sox GM's. That is how he was taught. It is gonna be interesting. The ownership or fans won't put up with mediocrity.
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Post by unitspin on Jan 16, 2021 8:00:02 GMT -5
Id be surprised if the red sox make a big splash this off-season. It looks like they are using this upcoming season to evaluate the upcoming prospects and if the talent is there I could see big spending next off season. Adding cost controlled players like houck, pivetta, mata, downs, duran, dalbec and seabold. If they hit on a couple of those guys next season would be the perfect storm for the red sox. It gives sale time to get right while being able to evaluate erod to see if hes worth locking up long term. They could spend over the cap in 2022 and then in 2023 jd, Evoaldi, price, pedey is gone after the 2021 season. That would lineup with a 5 yr title window.
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Post by jdb on Jan 16, 2021 8:40:45 GMT -5
Kluber is probably in the final stretch of his career and the Yankees do seemingly provide a much better opportunity at a WS in the immediate. It’s still kinda local to his offseason home and family. The game isn’t played on paper but still- I bet that proximity to a ring was at least a little factor Agree this probably is a situation where having a chance to win was as important as the money. I would have been fine with him but he’s an injury risk and we might need some more stability out of our higher cost starter signing.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jan 16, 2021 9:43:44 GMT -5
Id be surprised if the red sox make a big splash this off-season. It looks like they are using this upcoming season to evaluate the upcoming prospects and if the talent is there I could see big spending next off season. Adding cost controlled players like houck, pivetta, mata, downs, duran, dalbec and seabold. If they hit on a couple of those guys next season would be the perfect storm for the red sox. It gives sale time to get right while being able to evaluate erod to see if hes worth locking up long term. They could spend over the cap in 2022 and then in 2023 jd, Evoaldi, price, pedey is gone after the 2021 season. That would lineup with a 5 yr title window. JD, Eovaldi and price contracts are up after the 2022 season. Jd has an opt out after this season but I doubt he takes it.
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Post by fenwaymabe on Jan 16, 2021 10:45:51 GMT -5
I must admit I'm getting a little bummed at this point. The name of the game is pitching. At the beginning of the off season we heard that the sox were looking for 2 starters plus bullpen help and we've seen several of our targets go elsewhere. Maybe Kluber was too expensive based on his last couple of lost seasons but I was excited at the possibility of at least fielding a competitive starting rotation. Several low cost / high upside plays have signed elsewhere for far less as well. The Giants just signed Alex Wood for 3 million + incentives which I think was a shrewd move based on his track record when healthy. My biggest concern is that there seems to be a lack of intention to compete for a playoff spot for this upcoming season. Our offense was surprisingly strong last season even with subpar production from JD and Benny. If they bounce back to career norms and we get the pitching straightened out with a few solid additions then I think we are competitive. This team probably isn't competing for a W.S. this year, but I was hoping for something closer to a playoff contender. It this point it looks like we are in for several low cost lottery ticket signings just before the start of spring training. That doesn't bode well for our success in '21.
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Post by jdb on Jan 16, 2021 10:52:38 GMT -5
The thing is some of those options might not want to come on an incentive deal to pitch half their games in Fenway and most of the others in small AL East parks. It’s why Bloom has prioritized building depth and why you hear Benni’s name floated out there. All things equal most FA pitchers would rather pitch in SF.
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Post by manfred on Jan 16, 2021 12:02:43 GMT -5
Id be surprised if the red sox make a big splash this off-season. It looks like they are using this upcoming season to evaluate the upcoming prospects and if the talent is there I could see big spending next off season. Adding cost controlled players like houck, pivetta, mata, downs, duran, dalbec and seabold. If they hit on a couple of those guys next season would be the perfect storm for the red sox. It gives sale time to get right while being able to evaluate erod to see if hes worth locking up long term. They could spend over the cap in 2022 and then in 2023 jd, Evoaldi, price, pedey is gone after the 2021 season. That would lineup with a 5 yr title window. JD, Eovaldi and price contracts are up after the 2022 season. Jd has an opt out after this season but I doubt he takes it. So after the salary dump of Betts and Price, we need to wait a few more years for more salary dump? It is fun being a small market team!
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Post by unitspin on Jan 16, 2021 12:29:24 GMT -5
Id be surprised if the red sox make a big splash this off-season. It looks like they are using this upcoming season to evaluate the upcoming prospects and if the talent is there I could see big spending next off season. Adding cost controlled players like houck, pivetta, mata, downs, duran, dalbec and seabold. If they hit on a couple of those guys next season would be the perfect storm for the red sox. It gives sale time to get right while being able to evaluate erod to see if hes worth locking up long term. They could spend over the cap in 2022 and then in 2023 jd, Evoaldi, price, pedey is gone after the 2021 season. That would lineup with a 5 yr title window. JD, Eovaldi and price contracts are up after the 2022 season. Jd has an opt out after this season but I doubt he takes it. Yep so for the 2023 season their money is off the books. So if you go over the cap in 2022 then in 2023 you get significant relief to get back under the cap again.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 16, 2021 12:41:06 GMT -5
Kluber is probably in the final stretch of his career and the Yankees do seemingly provide a much better opportunity at a WS in the immediate. It’s still kinda local to his offseason home and family. The game isn’t played on paper but still- I bet that proximity to a ring was at least a little factor OK, I completely understand the logic here, but I can not stand this white flag sh*t to the Bronx baseball team.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 16, 2021 12:43:01 GMT -5
JD, Eovaldi and price contracts are up after the 2022 season. Jd has an opt out after this season but I doubt he takes it. Yep so for the 2023 season their money is off the books. So if you go over the cap in 2022 then in 2023 you get significant relief to get back under the cap again. Same if they go over now. And remember, that tax is only on the amount they're over. Also, they can go for it by buying a few free agents and still develop talent long term. The two aren't mutually exclusive when an team is willing to spend money (see: Dodgers, Los Angeles).
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Post by fenwaymabe on Jan 16, 2021 13:06:53 GMT -5
My biggest issue is that he went to the Evil Empire!
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Post by incandenza on Jan 16, 2021 13:18:28 GMT -5
JD, Eovaldi and price contracts are up after the 2022 season. Jd has an opt out after this season but I doubt he takes it. So after the salary dump of Betts and Price, we need to wait a few more years for more salary dump? It is fun being a small market team! Yeah this would be a real indictment of Bloom, if the idea is to just let the team dangle in limbo for four seasons. But if the idea is to go over the cap in 2022 then presumably that means going for it that season while also building for the long term. Overall the Bloom plan will have been:
2020: weird year; mulligan. 2021: Raysian attempt at working around the team's unavoidable weaknesses and a free agent class that doesn't match up with their needs to build a sneakily competitive team and compete for a wild card 2022: more promising free agents, more developed young talent; go for it with combination of old guard and new 2023: basically a completely rebuilt team beyond the Verdugo/Devers/Sale/Bogaerts(?)/ERod(?)/Vaz(?) core
That would work for me.
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Post by manfred on Jan 16, 2021 13:40:06 GMT -5
So after the salary dump of Betts and Price, we need to wait a few more years for more salary dump? It is fun being a small market team! Yeah this would be a real indictment of Bloom, if the idea is to just let the team dangle in limbo for four seasons. But if the idea is to go over the cap in 2022 then presumably that means going for it that season while also building for the long term. Overall the Bloom plan will have been:
2020: weird year; mulligan. 2021: Raysian attempt at working around the team's unavoidable weaknesses and a free agent class that doesn't match up with their needs to build a sneakily competitive team and compete for a wild card 2022: more promising free agents, more developed young talent; go for it with combination of old guard and new 2023: basically a completely rebuilt team beyond the Verdugo/Devers/Sale/Bogaerts(?)/ERod(?)/Vaz(?) core
That would work for me.
Works for me, but it hardly takes a genius. That is the path of least resistance or creativity. Hell, DD could do that if ordered not to spend. It also assumes that core is a championship core. How long can Sale and CVaz be “core”? Do we think in 2022 that core is elite? Maybe, but at some point they will have to pony up for a JDM level-guy, the MAN in the heart of the lineup to have Devers and X bookend.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 16, 2021 13:52:41 GMT -5
Yeah this would be a real indictment of Bloom, if the idea is to just let the team dangle in limbo for four seasons. But if the idea is to go over the cap in 2022 then presumably that means going for it that season while also building for the long term. Overall the Bloom plan will have been:
2020: weird year; mulligan. 2021: Raysian attempt at working around the team's unavoidable weaknesses and a free agent class that doesn't match up with their needs to build a sneakily competitive team and compete for a wild card 2022: more promising free agents, more developed young talent; go for it with combination of old guard and new 2023: basically a completely rebuilt team beyond the Verdugo/Devers/Sale/Bogaerts(?)/ERod(?)/Vaz(?) core
That would work for me.
Works for me, but it hardly takes a genius. That is the path of least resistance or creativity. Hell, DD could do that if ordered not to spend. Well okay, but people seemed to be suggesting Bloom wasn't even trying or something because he hadn't signed one of the top free agents yet. Or that the Red Sox were operating like a small market team...
And the creativity comes in the specific moves he makes. If you want creativity you can't turn around and complain about him signing Andriese. Or more to the point, you can't complain before he's... actually done much. The general view is that he's going to make several moves, maybe including a *creative* trade of Benintendi, before spring training starts. So maybe let's see what he does first?
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,926
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 16, 2021 14:58:27 GMT -5
The press reported that Kluber was training at Cressey Sports in Hudson, MA, but they didn't mention that Cressey was also the Yankees director of health and performance! (Or if they did, or someone mentioned it here, I missed it.) Or that another Cressey alum, Matt Blake, was also a local guy (Lincoln / Sudbury HS pitching coach), and had been the Indians' assistant director of pitching development when Kluber was with the team, and is now the Yankees pitching coach! Those are strong personal ties that are about his job. Given his struggles the last time he was healthy and the the subsequent injuries, sticking with the guys who know him makes perfect sense. And you can get from NYC to the Boston burbs in a few hours, so he'll see more of his family then he did in Cleveland.
Before I knew about the Yankee connections I pointed out that spending time with your family was worth a lot of money. It's still true. But resurrecting your career beats that easy. If it is indeed a 1-year deal with no option, that's very interesting; he's not committing to staying there.
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Post by manfred on Jan 16, 2021 15:22:57 GMT -5
Works for me, but it hardly takes a genius. That is the path of least resistance or creativity. Hell, DD could do that if ordered not to spend. Well okay, but people seemed to be suggesting Bloom wasn't even trying or something because he hadn't signed one of the top free agents yet. Or that the Red Sox were operating like a small market team...
And the creativity comes in the specific moves he makes. If you want creativity you can't turn around and complain about him signing Andriese. Or more to the point, you can't complain before he's... actually done much. The general view is that he's going to make several moves, maybe including a *creative* trade of Benintendi, before spring training starts. So maybe let's see what he does first?
I was merely taking for granted your scenario, so sure there remains a great chance he does more than that. But calling his signing of Andriese creative is grading on a huge curve. They need middle inning arms. He hot one relatively cheap. It is this off season’s equivalent of all the flyer arms brought in last year. And trading Beni might be creative, but it also likely fits the punt for a few years model if the return is prospects. Sure, they could turn around and sign Brantley, but then you are at once playing for 2022 AND getting older, which is odd. All I’m saying is a) it is only January, so b) the only grade possible is “incomplete” but c) let’s not *give* points for not signing Sugano, Kluber etc. Even if he ultimately *chose* to pass, all that returns us is to the unfulfilled task of adding starting pitching. (Not accusing you of this... but there is a camp that assumes everything is part of the plan).
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Post by unitspin on Jan 16, 2021 17:02:08 GMT -5
So after the salary dump of Betts and Price, we need to wait a few more years for more salary dump? It is fun being a small market team! Yeah this would be a real indictment of Bloom, if the idea is to just let the team dangle in limbo for four seasons. But if the idea is to go over the cap in 2022 then presumably that means going for it that season while also building for the long term. Overall the Bloom plan will have been:
2020: weird year; mulligan. 2021: Raysian attempt at working around the team's unavoidable weaknesses and a free agent class that doesn't match up with their needs to build a sneakily competitive team and compete for a wild card 2022: more promising free agents, more developed young talent; go for it with combination of old guard and new 2023: basically a completely rebuilt team beyond the Verdugo/Devers/Sale/Bogaerts(?)/ERod(?)/Vaz(?) core
That would work for me.
Hey, everything thing is looking back from the future with these rebuilds or whatever you want to label it. If in six years they win two titles and start that five year window in 2022 I doubt many of us would be complaining. But sitting here about to start year two before the title window its a bummer. I'll get over it though if it leads to that scenario though.
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Post by manfred on Jan 16, 2021 17:20:03 GMT -5
Given his struggles the last time he was healthy and the the subsequent injuries, sticking with the guys who know him makes perfect sense.
[/quote] Wait a second.... when we thought the Sox might get Kluber, I said he had an injury history, and you objected. And now you say “injuries” might have been a factor in his thinking? And when I said his stuff had declined, you huffed at that... now his “struggles” are an issue. So... when it looked like Bloom might sign him, he was great, a real comeback waiting to happen. When he signs with the Yankees, it’s because they get his health issues and struggles? It feels a bit like something changed.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Jan 17, 2021 8:55:23 GMT -5
The good news is that Yankees are done with moves it seems. They are probably right at the CBT and won't be making many moves this season. So if Kluber is cooked, they might be screwed.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jan 17, 2021 10:14:05 GMT -5
The good news is that Yankees are done with moves it seems. They are probably right at the CBT and won't be making many moves this season. So if Kluber is cooked, they might be screwed. Well a N.Y. Post report said that they are about 4M below the 210M penalty incursion considering salaries, insurances, milb in season call-ups etc. I believe that they reset so any overage would be taxed at a low 20%. They nicely got thru Kluber and LeMayhieu unscarred and, after all, they are the Yankees. They need a catcher and Realmuto has gloss. Even if they wait until August, I don't think they have hung up their gunbelt.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 17, 2021 10:45:52 GMT -5
Well okay, but people seemed to be suggesting Bloom wasn't even trying or something because he hadn't signed one of the top free agents yet. Or that the Red Sox were operating like a small market team...
And the creativity comes in the specific moves he makes. If you want creativity you can't turn around and complain about him signing Andriese. Or more to the point, you can't complain before he's... actually done much. The general view is that he's going to make several moves, maybe including a *creative* trade of Benintendi, before spring training starts. So maybe let's see what he does first?
I was merely taking for granted your scenario, so sure there remains a great chance he does more than that. But calling his signing of Andriese creative is grading on a huge curve. They need middle inning arms. He hot one relatively cheap. It is this off season’s equivalent of all the flyer arms brought in last year. And trading Beni might be creative, but it also likely fits the punt for a few years model if the return is prospects. Sure, they could turn around and sign Brantley, but then you are at once playing for 2022 AND getting older, which is odd. All I’m saying is a) it is only January, so b) the only grade possible is “incomplete” but c) let’s not *give* points for not signing Sugano, Kluber etc. Even if he ultimately *chose* to pass, all that returns us is to the unfulfilled task of adding starting pitching. (Not accusing you of this... but there is a camp that assumes everything is part of the plan). I phrased my point re: Andriese poorly; I just meant that if one was looking for creativity, then one shouldn't also complain about their not signing the top free agents available, which is positively Dombrowskian in its uncreativity. (Not that there's anything wrong with signing top free agents, something the Red Sox should definitely do from time to time!)
Agree on the incomplete grade, which was my main point. And like I said I would have been quite happy if they had signed Kluber. But if the team is right up against the CBT limit at the end of the off-season then we can conclude they did the most with their resources that they could, and if they didn't sign Kluber (or any other specific player) it was because they just didn't think that was the most efficient use of money. And then we'll just see how the season plays out and see if they were right.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Jan 17, 2021 10:54:22 GMT -5
These type of moves seem to rarely work out for us but always for out for the Yankees. I fully expect him to be amazing this year, just because they signed him.
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Post by manfred on Jan 17, 2021 12:13:11 GMT -5
I was merely taking for granted your scenario, so sure there remains a great chance he does more than that. But calling his signing of Andriese creative is grading on a huge curve. They need middle inning arms. He hot one relatively cheap. It is this off season’s equivalent of all the flyer arms brought in last year. And trading Beni might be creative, but it also likely fits the punt for a few years model if the return is prospects. Sure, they could turn around and sign Brantley, but then you are at once playing for 2022 AND getting older, which is odd. All I’m saying is a) it is only January, so b) the only grade possible is “incomplete” but c) let’s not *give* points for not signing Sugano, Kluber etc. Even if he ultimately *chose* to pass, all that returns us is to the unfulfilled task of adding starting pitching. (Not accusing you of this... but there is a camp that assumes everything is part of the plan). I phrased my point re: Andriese poorly; I just meant that if one was looking for creativity, then one shouldn't also complain about their not signing the top free agents available, which is positively Dombrowskian in its uncreativity. (Not that there's anything wrong with signing top free agents, something the Red Sox should definitely do from time to time!)
Agree on the incomplete grade, which was my main point. And like I said I would have been quite happy if they had signed Kluber. But if the team is right up against the CBT limit at the end of the off-season then we can conclude they did the most with their resources that they could, and if they didn't sign Kluber (or any other specific player) it was because they just didn't think that was the most efficient use of money. And then we'll just see how the season plays out and see if they were right.
I agree. I don’t want them signing big dollar 30+ year olds right now, because I agree with the timeline: 2022 at the soonest. But... my big issue is with the idea that Bloom has some particularly rare gift for seeing the obvious. For example: talk of signing Garrett Richards or Matt Moore. That is the sort of move if the Royals make, we see as basically looking for low cost ways to field a respectably bad AL Central team. If Bloom does it, there’ll be people throwing up microstats showing Richards is a masterstroke or budgeteers saying what a great cheap signing it was. I am not looking for them to sign Springer or Bauer, but so far the only big move Bloom has made was a tear down. Can he *build* a winner? Remains to be seen. If he thinks Arroyo and Dalbec on the right side of the infield gets it done, I have my doubts. At this moment, with JBJ in the wind, this team may well be *worse* than last year’s on paper at this time They traded two of their reliable bullpen arms (good trades, mind you— but that leaves the pen worse at the moment than it was coming out of last spring). They have no CF. ERod ultimately didn’t pitch, but we didn’t know that mid-January. Add: as far as what I’d do... well, for one thing, I’d rather trade JDM than Beni. I’d consider selling CVaz high. I’d rather flat out suck this season if it sets me up for the next year than be ok and then be a bit better than ok. I don’t have faith that they have a combination of a core and nearly-ready next-gen players without a few massive pieces. At some point, somehow, they are going to need one or two front-of-staff starters, a closer, and at least one more big hitter. Probably an arm or two more of bullpen depth. I don’t know if any of that but the closer are in their org right now.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Jan 17, 2021 14:44:45 GMT -5
The good news is that Yankees are done with moves it seems. They are probably right at the CBT and won't be making many moves this season. So if Kluber is cooked, they might be screwed. Well a N.Y. Post report said that they are about 4M below the 210M penalty incursion considering salaries, insurances, milb in season call-ups etc. I believe that they reset so any overage would be taxed at a low 20%. They nicely got thru Kluber and LeMayhieu unscarred and, after all, they are the Yankees. They need a catcher and Realmuto has gloss. Even if they wait until August, I don't think they have hung up their gunbelt. Yeah they got maybe another move for a cheapish reliever at the trade deadline and that's it. If they get crippled with injuries, then it's hard for them to recover. They aren't going over CBT this year.
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