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Red Sox Acquire Adam Ottavino from the Yankees
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Jan 25, 2021 14:53:03 GMT -5
Is this the first time that Yankees and Sox have completed a trade since Mike Stanley? Stephen Drew for Kelly Johnson in 2014, but only the 2nd trade between the two franchises since Cashman has been in charge. Forgot about that one!
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 25, 2021 14:58:42 GMT -5
What is the primary attraction of this deal for the Red Sox?
Is it Ottavino? Do they see him as their closer? Or are they going to look to get one more arm with experience closing? Like a Kela, a Jeffress, or a Robertson who could come cheaply?
Or is the bigger attraction Frank German? He's a 28th or so rated pitcher in the Yankees system who doesn't project to be a starter. Do they seem him as a lot better than guys you see throwing hard be picked off the waiver wire? Do they see him as a high leverage reliever?
I'm guessing they figured that a year of Ottavino (or half season if they deal him) was probably preferable to what was left on the market and if they could couple it with an arm they can project as somebody they can see contributing to a future Red Sox team, then even letting the Yankees off their financial hook so they can make other additions, it made sense for the Red Sox.
I'm not putting down the trade at all, just trying to understand it better. Maybe I answered my own questions and maybe some agree with the conclusion, but maybe somebody has a perspective I haven't considered yet. I'm all ears.
Meanwhile, the Yankees system must have been better than one would think as the Sox certainly like picking from it. I believe this is the 3rd guy they've taken, starting with Whitlock, and the reliever they took in the Minor League Rule 5 draft.
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Post by manfred on Jan 25, 2021 15:04:39 GMT -5
What is the primary attraction of this deal for the Red Sox? Is it Ottavino? Do they see him as their closer? Or are they going to look to get one more arm with experience closing? Like a Kela, a Jeffress, or a Robertson who could come cheaply? Or is the bigger attraction Frank German? He's a 28th or so rated pitcher in the Yankees system who doesn't project to be a starter. Do they seem him as a lot better than guys you see throwing hard be picked off the waiver wire? Do they see him as a high leverage reliever? I'm guessing they figured that a year of Ottavino (or half season if they deal him) was probably preferable to what was left on the market and if they could couple it with an arm they can project as somebody they can see contributing to a future Red Sox team, then even letting the Yankees off their financial hook so they can make other additions, it made sense for the Red Sox. I'm not putting down the trade at all, just trying to understand it better. Maybe I answered my own questions and maybe some agree with the conclusion, but maybe somebody has a perspective I haven't considered yet. I'm all ears. Meanwhile, the Yankees system must have been better than one would think as the Sox certainly like picking from it. I believe this is the 3rd guy they've taken, starting with Whitlock, and the reliever they took in the Minor League Rule 5 draft. I’m a pessimistic guy, but I see this as a plus for these reasons: 1) this is the last year on his contract. 2) they got a prospect who could have value. 3) they can turn AO around midseason — and a team that might be budget conscious will like having only a spot of contract left. 3a) so could yield more prospects. 4) they needed a reliever one way or another, and AO at his best is awesome. As I said elsewhere, I think helping the Yankees clear money is a sign the Sox aren’t serious about this year. AO is there if everything breaks right... they have a potentially elite arm for a miracle run. But he’s someone who costs nothing when it is go-time next season and can yield youth at both ends.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 25, 2021 15:08:43 GMT -5
What is the primary attraction of this deal for the Red Sox? Is it Ottavino? Do they see him as their closer? Or are they going to look to get one more arm with experience closing? Like a Kela, a Jeffress, or a Robertson who could come cheaply? Or is the bigger attraction Frank German? He's a 28th or so rated pitcher in the Yankees system who doesn't project to be a starter. Do they seem him as a lot better than guys you see throwing hard be picked off the waiver wire? Do they see him as a high leverage reliever? I'm guessing they figured that a year of Ottavino (or half season if they deal him) was probably preferable to what was left on the market and if they could couple it with an arm they can project as somebody they can see contributing to a future Red Sox team, then even letting the Yankees off their financial hook so they can make other additions, it made sense for the Red Sox. I'm not putting down the trade at all, just trying to understand it better. Maybe I answered my own questions and maybe some agree with the conclusion, but maybe somebody has a perspective I haven't considered yet. I'm all ears. Meanwhile, the Yankees system must have been better than one would think as the Sox certainly like picking from it. I believe this is the 3rd guy they've taken, starting with Whitlock, and the reliever they took in the Minor League Rule 5 draft. My perspective is they wanted a higher leverage reliever, like Ottavino as much or nearly as much as the alternatives on the market going for a similar rate (Hand, Yates) and were able to both fill that need and get a lottery ticket-esque prospect for the same price it costs to sign a guy like this. People here have been asking the Sox to buy a prospect, they did that while also getting a good reliever for his market value. If he's bad, oh well they got a prospect. If he's good and the team is bad, trade him at the deadline and get another one. If he's good and the team is good, great we're competing.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Jan 25, 2021 15:12:26 GMT -5
Ottavino needs to be the closer if his arm is not shot to hell.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 25, 2021 15:13:01 GMT -5
What is the primary attraction of this deal for the Red Sox? Is it Ottavino? Do they see him as their closer? Or are they going to look to get one more arm with experience closing? Like a Kela, a Jeffress, or a Robertson who could come cheaply? Or is the bigger attraction Frank German? He's a 28th or so rated pitcher in the Yankees system who doesn't project to be a starter. Do they seem him as a lot better than guys you see throwing hard be picked off the waiver wire? Do they see him as a high leverage reliever? I'm guessing they figured that a year of Ottavino (or half season if they deal him) was probably preferable to what was left on the market and if they could couple it with an arm they can project as somebody they can see contributing to a future Red Sox team, then even letting the Yankees off their financial hook so they can make other additions, it made sense for the Red Sox. I'm not putting down the trade at all, just trying to understand it better. Maybe I answered my own questions and maybe some agree with the conclusion, but maybe somebody has a perspective I haven't considered yet. I'm all ears. Meanwhile, the Yankees system must have been better than one would think as the Sox certainly like picking from it. I believe this is the 3rd guy they've taken, starting with Whitlock, and the reliever they took in the Minor League Rule 5 draft. I’m a pessimistic guy, but I see this as a plus for these reasons: 1) this is the last year on his contract. 2) they got a prospect who could have value. 3) they can turn AO around midseason — and a team that might be budget conscious will like having only a spot of contract left. 3a) so could yield more prospects. 4) they needed a reliever one way or another, and AO at his best is awesome. As I said elsewhere, I think helping the Yankees clear money is a sign the Sox aren’t serious about this year. AO is there if everything breaks right... they have a potentially elite arm for a miracle run. But he’s someone who costs nothing when it is go-time next season and can yield youth at both ends. Oh, I'm not against this trade at all. I remember all the "if we take Myers, we can get Campusano" guy of stuff that excites you because you'd be getting a top prospect. German is a much lesser caliber prospect and AO is still a decent reliever but he hasn't quite been the same since whatever injury he had in 2017. It's like ever since he got back from it, his pinpoint control vanished. He was a 2.5 - 3 walks per 9 inning kind of guy, but since then he's closer to 4.5 - 5 walks per 9 inning type of guy. He still gets the strikeouts and is tough to square up. I see no reason not for them to make this kind of deal. While I don't prefer Ottavino as the Sox closer to Colome or Kela, I don't think the difference is a major thing. Besides, somebody like a Cishek or Jeffress, or a Kela could still slide cheaply to the Sox as another insurance policy, not that any of those relievers are a sure bet, either. So like I said, if you're going to get a reliever, might as well get another guy stapled to him if you can. Just curious as to what they see in German. Would like to hear Bloom or one of the FO opine on what they think he can be.
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Post by manfred on Jan 25, 2021 15:29:58 GMT -5
I’m a pessimistic guy, but I see this as a plus for these reasons: 1) this is the last year on his contract. 2) they got a prospect who could have value. 3) they can turn AO around midseason — and a team that might be budget conscious will like having only a spot of contract left. 3a) so could yield more prospects. 4) they needed a reliever one way or another, and AO at his best is awesome. As I said elsewhere, I think helping the Yankees clear money is a sign the Sox aren’t serious about this year. AO is there if everything breaks right... they have a potentially elite arm for a miracle run. But he’s someone who costs nothing when it is go-time next season and can yield youth at both ends. Oh, I'm not against this trade at all. I remember all the "if we take Myers, we can get Campusano" guy of stuff that excites you because you'd be getting a top prospect. German is a much lesser caliber prospect and AO is still a decent reliever but he hasn't quite been the same since whatever injury he had in 2017. It's like ever since he got back from it, his pinpoint control vanished. He was a 2.5 - 3 walks per 9 inning kind of guy, but since then he's closer to 4.5 - 5 walks per 9 inning type of guy. He still gets the strikeouts and is tough to square up. I see no reason not for them to make this kind of deal. While I don't prefer Ottavino as the Sox closer to Colome or Kela, I don't think the difference is a major thing. Besides, somebody like a Cishek or Jeffress, or a Kela could still slide cheaply to the Sox as another insurance policy, not that any of those relievers are a sure bet, either. So like I said, if you're going to get a reliever, might as well get another guy stapled to him if you can. Just curious as to what they see in German. Would like to hear Bloom or one of the FO opine on what they think he can be. I really think they figure it is German + one or two guys at the deadline. Hey, dude throws high-90s and all he costs is money they were going to gave to spend in one form or another anyway. Even if they could get Colome for less, why pay him $7 mill when for a bit more you get at least one prospect?
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,928
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 25, 2021 15:49:16 GMT -5
Ottavino's season divided into three distinct chunks.
2.50 pERA from 7/26 to 8/13. 9 SO, 4 BB, HBP in 7.2 IP in 10 G. Super soft contact
7.16 pERA from 8/16 to 9/13. 7 SO, 5 BB in 5.2 IP in 8 G. Very hard contacxt.
3.05 pERA from 9/17 to 9/26. 9 SO, 0 BB in 5 IP in 6 G, nearly as hard contact.
The first chunk is classic Ottavino, but the last is very different: dominating the strike zone at the expense of hard contact and coming out nearly as well.
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Post by philarhody on Jan 25, 2021 17:30:23 GMT -5
Yanks probably think his arm’s about to fall off. Interesting upside for Boston. If he restores his value, could probably fetch a real prospect come trade deadline
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Post by ramireja on Jan 25, 2021 17:53:27 GMT -5
Wow a little surprised to see how many people think we're going to be sellers (and not buyers) at the trade deadline. Do you really think this team is more likely to be way out of wildcard contention than close enough to make a run at it? Granted, anything can happen and its nice to have trade chips in the unfortunate case that we are sellers. That said, I can't see Chaim thinking to himself "we have no shot at the playoffs this year so I'm going to stock up on trade chips for teams that will need them"... Honestly, this trade makes the Yankees worse in all likelihood and I'm sure Chaim was happy to help out with that.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jan 25, 2021 17:53:39 GMT -5
Yanks probably think his arm’s about to fall off. Interesting upside for Boston. If he restores his value, could probably fetch a real prospect come trade deadline i am kind of in this camp. The MFY want to clear 9M of cap space and get rid of a prospect because....there are luxury tax implications. I mean it is 9M. Is that really going to cost them in penalties, or prohibit their signing Gardner (who would probably come back for 1M) I know they don't spend like they used to, but that salary isn't the difference maker of blowing through the limit. Their window is closing. If we are to believe that AO still has much good projection, I think this is surprising, from the MFY perspective
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jan 25, 2021 17:54:40 GMT -5
Wow a little surprised to see how many people think we're going to be sellers (and not buyers) at the trade deadline. Do you really think this team is more likely to be way out of wildcard contention than close enough to make a run at it? Granted, anything can happen and its nice to have trade chips in the unfortunate case that we are sellers. That said, I can't see Chaim thinking to himself "we have no shot at the playoffs this year so I'm going to stock up on trade chips for teams that will need them"... Honestly, this trade makes the Yankees worse in all likelihood and I'm sure Chaim was happy to help out with that. there is too much talk of that. the season hasn't even started. We have some good players.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Jan 25, 2021 18:07:21 GMT -5
Wow a little surprised to see how many people think we're going to be sellers (and not buyers) at the trade deadline. Do you really think this team is more likely to be way out of wildcard contention than close enough to make a run at it? Granted, anything can happen and its nice to have trade chips in the unfortunate case that we are sellers. That said, I can't see Chaim thinking to himself "we have no shot at the playoffs this year so I'm going to stock up on trade chips for teams that will need them"... Honestly, this trade makes the Yankees worse in all likelihood and I'm sure Chaim was happy to help out with that. Well, Sam Kennedy has already said they're building, not exactly going for it already. The Sox worst nightmare again is if 2019 happens all over again and they're 3 spots out of a playoff spot and they decide to go for it, knowing fully that the plan is to build this season. You're right about this making the Yankees worse, however. They dump Ottavino and a prospect for cash relief so they can get washed up Gardner resigned and another relief pitcher worse than Ottavino lol.
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Post by soxinjersey on Jan 25, 2021 18:13:12 GMT -5
What is the primary attraction of this deal for the Red Sox? Is it Ottavino? Do they see him as their closer? Or are they going to look to get one more arm with experience closing? Like a Kela, a Jeffress, or a Robertson who could come cheaply? Or is the bigger attraction Frank German? He's a 28th or so rated pitcher in the Yankees system who doesn't project to be a starter. Do they seem him as a lot better than guys you see throwing hard be picked off the waiver wire? Do they see him as a high leverage reliever? I'm guessing they figured that a year of Ottavino (or half season if they deal him) was probably preferable to what was left on the market and if they could couple it with an arm they can project as somebody they can see contributing to a future Red Sox team, then even letting the Yankees off their financial hook so they can make other additions, it made sense for the Red Sox. I'm not putting down the trade at all, just trying to understand it better. Maybe I answered my own questions and maybe some agree with the conclusion, but maybe somebody has a perspective I haven't considered yet. I'm all ears. Meanwhile, the Yankees system must have been better than one would think as the Sox certainly like picking from it. I believe this is the 3rd guy they've taken, starting with Whitlock, and the reliever they took in the Minor League Rule 5 draft.
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Post by ramireja on Jan 25, 2021 18:23:56 GMT -5
Wow a little surprised to see how many people think we're going to be sellers (and not buyers) at the trade deadline. Do you really think this team is more likely to be way out of wildcard contention than close enough to make a run at it? Granted, anything can happen and its nice to have trade chips in the unfortunate case that we are sellers. That said, I can't see Chaim thinking to himself "we have no shot at the playoffs this year so I'm going to stock up on trade chips for teams that will need them"... Honestly, this trade makes the Yankees worse in all likelihood and I'm sure Chaim was happy to help out with that. Well, Sam Kennedy has already said they're building, not exactly going for it already. The Sox worst nightmare again is if 2019 happens all over again and they're 3 spots out of a playoff spot and they decide to go for it, knowing fully that the plan is to build this season. You're right about this making the Yankees worse, however. They dump Ottavino and a prospect for cash relief so they can get washed up Gardner resigned and another relief pitcher worse than Ottavino lol. Sure but "building" is a pretty general term. I take it to mean they're going to be disciplined with their balance of 'win now' vs. 'win long term' moves and prioritizing the latter. That said, even though this team has a long-term plan, I highly doubt anyone in the front office sees this as a completely non-competitive year.
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Post by soxinjersey on Jan 25, 2021 18:37:47 GMT -5
I don't like helping the Yankees or spending this much on a set-up guy, but Ottavino has been a very good RP for a while now. My guess is that the Sox are planning to use the bullpen as the Rays do, i.e. go without designated roles or a single closer. In essence, anybody can go any day at any time in the game, although some guys, like AO and Barnes, would get primarily high-leverage situations.
It makes sense because the Sox have a fair number of guys who can pitch from the 7th inning on, plus Mata who might be ready to pitch in the late innings by mid-season. With Hernandez, he would give us two very good young arms for the late innings. There would be growing pains early and almost certainly some troubling losses, but over time, my guess is that everybody would get better, and it would help with the development of the young pitchers. This is a way to build the flexibility in the bullpen that we're already seeing in the field with position players able to play multiple positions. I have to believe this kind of system is more fun for most players and also helps build team spirit and energy. If this is the plan, I would like to see the Sox add Workman to the bullpen mix because he has a closer's mentality and probably would be affordable. It would help the unit to have at least one guy who already knows how to close games.
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Post by hongkyongnae on Jan 25, 2021 18:41:00 GMT -5
Stephen Drew for Kelly Johnson in 2014, but only the 2nd trade between the two franchises since Cashman has been in charge. Forgot about that one! And just to add even more trivia to this thread.... Max Goldstein @maxsportsstudio The Adam Ottavino trade, pending confirmation, is the first winter trade between the Yankees and Red Sox since February 17th, 1937.
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Post by manfred on Jan 25, 2021 18:41:10 GMT -5
Well, Sam Kennedy has already said they're building, not exactly going for it already. The Sox worst nightmare again is if 2019 happens all over again and they're 3 spots out of a playoff spot and they decide to go for it, knowing fully that the plan is to build this season. You're right about this making the Yankees worse, however. They dump Ottavino and a prospect for cash relief so they can get washed up Gardner resigned and another relief pitcher worse than Ottavino lol. Sure but "building" is a pretty general term. I take it to mean they're going to be disciplined with their balance of 'win now' vs. 'win long term' moves and prioritizing the latter. That said, even though this team has a long-term plan, I highly doubt anyone in the front office sees this as a completely non-competitive year. I think this signing muddies the water on the plan, but what they do vis-a-vis the tax line will be most revealing. They are only a few million away, but they still have needs. If they think they are legit, they might have to go over. If they are still in wait til next year mode, they’ll likely look for cheaper options. To me, if they thought this year was real, they’d bring JBJ back. CF is still a hole, and he fits. But he’ll cost them too much to stay under the cap (at least without separate moves, obviously). So if he walks and they go with what they have, it is a sign that they are not really invested in this season. I do think the AO signing ironically makes the WC less attractive. I don’t want them holding guys at the deadline to be an early round loser. I’d rather be out of it and able to hold a fire sale — or, if there is a true miracle, a legitimate championship contender.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jan 25, 2021 19:10:05 GMT -5
Well, Sam Kennedy has already said they're building, not exactly going for it already. The Sox worst nightmare again is if 2019 happens all over again and they're 3 spots out of a playoff spot and they decide to go for it, knowing fully that the plan is to build this season. You're right about this making the Yankees worse, however. They dump Ottavino and a prospect for cash relief so they can get washed up Gardner resigned and another relief pitcher worse than Ottavino lol. Sure but "building" is a pretty general term. I take it to mean they're going to be disciplined with their balance of 'win now' vs. 'win long term' moves and prioritizing the latter. That said, even though this team has a long-term plan, I highly doubt anyone in the front office sees this as a completely non-competitive year. Given the 200mil payroll, they better not plan for a non-competitive year or they're likely to be packing their bags. But the Red Sox look to be competing for a wild card spot while the Yankees are competing for the WS. So 'competitive' is a bit of a vague term. Either way, if the Red Sox find themselves 6 games out of the WC come the trade deadline, Ottavino could fetch then a nice return.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 25, 2021 19:27:12 GMT -5
Endorse.
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Post by fenwaymabe on Jan 25, 2021 19:27:33 GMT -5
Nice move. I like Ottavino as a late relief option. The small sample size last year kind of blew up his era over a couple of rough outings, but on the whole his underlying stats were solid as usual. The young arm in the deal may be a reliver long term, but still an interesting prospect on his own. I give kudos to Bloom on this one. Definitely outside of the box, but wasn't scared to pull the trigger on a deal that made sense for both teams. Job well done. If we can somehow bring back Workman to boot, all the better.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 25, 2021 19:52:48 GMT -5
Sure but "building" is a pretty general term. I take it to mean they're going to be disciplined with their balance of 'win now' vs. 'win long term' moves and prioritizing the latter. That said, even though this team has a long-term plan, I highly doubt anyone in the front office sees this as a completely non-competitive year. I think this signing muddies the water on the plan, but what they do vis-a-vis the tax line will be most revealing. They are only a few million away, but they still have needs. If they think they are legit, they might have to go over. If they are still in wait til next year mode, they’ll likely look for cheaper options. To me, if they thought this year was real, they’d bring JBJ back. CF is still a hole, and he fits. But he’ll cost them too much to stay under the cap (at least without separate moves, obviously). So if he walks and they go with what they have, it is a sign that they are not really invested in this season. I do think the AO signing ironically makes the WC less attractive. I don’t want them holding guys at the deadline to be an early round loser. I’d rather be out of it and able to hold a fire sale — or, if there is a true miracle, a legitimate championship contender. Bear in mind that in a scenario in which they are in wild card position at the trade deadline, they will have gotten there largely without Sale - and then they will have added Sale. So they'd be going into the postseason, health permitting, with Sale and ERod and maybe even Richards at the top of the rotation.
What a bummer that would be - they wouldn't be able to trade Ottavino for a B prospect...
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Post by manfred on Jan 25, 2021 20:01:31 GMT -5
I think this signing muddies the water on the plan, but what they do vis-a-vis the tax line will be most revealing. They are only a few million away, but they still have needs. If they think they are legit, they might have to go over. If they are still in wait til next year mode, they’ll likely look for cheaper options. To me, if they thought this year was real, they’d bring JBJ back. CF is still a hole, and he fits. But he’ll cost them too much to stay under the cap (at least without separate moves, obviously). So if he walks and they go with what they have, it is a sign that they are not really invested in this season. I do think the AO signing ironically makes the WC less attractive. I don’t want them holding guys at the deadline to be an early round loser. I’d rather be out of it and able to hold a fire sale — or, if there is a true miracle, a legitimate championship contender. Bear in mind that in a scenario in which they are in wild card position at the trade deadline, they will have gotten there largely without Sale - and then they will have added Sale. So they'd be going into the postseason, health permitting, with Sale and ERod and maybe even Richards at the top of the rotation.
What a bummer that would be - they wouldn't be able to trade Ottavino for a B prospect...
That is a LOT of ifs. Yes, sure, if everything goes exactly right, we should make a mad dash for it. I’ll see you at the parade.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jan 25, 2021 20:03:24 GMT -5
Kiki Hernandez, Garrett Richards, Adam Ottavino, so we now have three additions to the 40-man roster....who are the 3 players that come off...... 1. Someone like Michael Chavis could be traded. 2. Benintendi could be traded to open up some room $ wise. 3. Springs, Walden, Brewer ?? 4. Sorry folks, time to give Pedroia a choice retire vs. DFA 5. Some pending trade ??
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Post by greenmonsterwhalers on Jan 25, 2021 20:03:46 GMT -5
Am I misunderstanding or did the Red Sox take on $3M of Ottavino's salary for 2022? If so, that's my only knock on the deal. Why reduce the amount you have to spend for 2022, when they might have a shot at contention? And if the Yankees' motivation for the deal was shedding salary for 2021, that's even more reason why it seems unnecessary for us to have taken on the $3M. I'd probably rather have taken on Ottavino's full 2021 contract (if NYY would have paid the $3M in 2022 for the extra $1M or so of flexibility this year) or passed on the prospect (since reports suggest he's a middle reliever at best) in exchange for saving the $3M in 2022.
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