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Post by sarasoxer on Mar 16, 2022 12:51:16 GMT -5
Under Bloom I don't see the Sox outbidding other teams for any top players for the foreseeable future. Those days are gone. The Sox will try to gain advantage by 'outsmarting' the other guy...trading off higher priced vets for prospects to build the next generation thru the minor leagues. In the meantime I see us practicing fiscal restraint and picking up secondary talent to keep on the competitive fringes. That takes discipline in the face of a conditioned and demanding fan base.
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Post by incandenza on Mar 16, 2022 12:58:12 GMT -5
Under Bloom I don't see the Sox outbidding other teams for any top players for the foreseeable future. Those days are gone. The Sox will try to gain advantage by 'outsmarting' the other guy...trading off higher priced vets for prospects to build the next generation thru the minor leagues. In the meantime I see us practicing fiscal restraint and picking up secondary talent to keep on the competitive fringes. That takes discipline in the face of a conditioned and demanding fan base. So I have this whole schtick where I like to point out that Bloom is not some mysterious oracle we have to interpret, but a guy who is rather open about his strategic thinking, and one thing he has said in public, repeatedly, is that the team has been in on certain top-line free agents. I believe he's even said they've been close at times, but never quite pulled the trigger. It's not like they're philosophically opposed to it. I will almost guarantee that the Red Sox sign at least one "top player," if not this offseason then next.
I mean, they have all of $79 million committed for 2023. How can they not sign at least one top player? You can't Renfroe-and-Wacha your way to a $230 million payroll.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,010
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Post by nomar on Mar 16, 2022 13:01:48 GMT -5
Burn this thread to the ground
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Mar 16, 2022 13:11:07 GMT -5
Under Bloom I don't see the Sox outbidding other teams for any top players for the foreseeable future. Those days are gone. The Sox will try to gain advantage by 'outsmarting' the other guy...trading off higher priced vets for prospects to build the next generation thru the minor leagues. In the meantime I see us practicing fiscal restraint and picking up secondary talent to keep on the competitive fringes. That takes discipline in the face of a conditioned and demanding fan base. So I have this whole schtick where I like to point out that Bloom is not some mysterious oracle we have to interpret, but a guy who is rather open about his strategic thinking, and one thing he has said in public, repeatedly, is that the team has been in on certain top-line free agents. I believe he's even said they've been close at times, but never quite pulled the trigger. It's not like they're philosophically opposed to it. I will almost guarantee that the Red Sox sign at least one "top player," if not this offseason then next.
I mean, they have all of $79 million committed for 2023. How can they not sign at least one top player? You can't Renfroe-and-Wacha your way to a $230 million payroll.
The FA class next year is really bad. Do you want them to sign anyone off that list? I think if they don't resign Xander then they'll still be a 180 million dollar team but you're going to see them with a bunch of 1-2 year deals that might look like overpays but use them as bridges to the next top Sox squad. Its clear that the 2022 Red Sox are not the priority of this management team. If they win then great but I think last years team out performed even what Bloom expected. I admire the guy for staying the course and not overspending and focusing on the future.
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Post by incandenza on Mar 16, 2022 13:21:11 GMT -5
So I have this whole schtick where I like to point out that Bloom is not some mysterious oracle we have to interpret, but a guy who is rather open about his strategic thinking, and one thing he has said in public, repeatedly, is that the team has been in on certain top-line free agents. I believe he's even said they've been close at times, but never quite pulled the trigger. It's not like they're philosophically opposed to it. I will almost guarantee that the Red Sox sign at least one "top player," if not this offseason then next.
I mean, they have all of $79 million committed for 2023. How can they not sign at least one top player? You can't Renfroe-and-Wacha your way to a $230 million payroll.
The FA class next year is really bad. Do you want them to sign anyone off that list? I think if they don't resign Xander then they'll still be a 180 million dollar team but you're going to see them with a bunch of 1-2 year deals that might look like overpays but use them as bridges to the next top Sox squad. Its clear that the 2022 Red Sox are not the priority of this management team. If they win then great but I think last years team out performed even what Bloom expected. I admire the guy for staying the course and not overspending and focusing on the future. I wouldn't hate signing Trea Turner, Jacob DeGrom, Tim Anderson... or Xander Bogaerts.
But I agree that there's a heck of a lot of logic to signing a major FA this offseason, for numerous reasons, which is why I still think it'll happen. (Or else some shocker of a trade, maybe.)
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Post by sarasoxer on Mar 16, 2022 13:30:23 GMT -5
So I have this whole schtick where I like to point out that Bloom is not some mysterious oracle we have to interpret, but a guy who is rather open about his strategic thinking, and one thing he has said in public, repeatedly, is that the team has been in on certain top-line free agents. I believe he's even said they've been close at times, but never quite pulled the trigger. It's not like they're philosophically opposed to it. I will almost guarantee that the Red Sox sign at least one "top player," if not this offseason then next. I mean, they have all of $79 million committed for 2023. How can they not sign at least one top player? You can't Renfroe-and-Wacha your way to a $230 million payroll.
The FA class next year is really bad. Do you want them to sign anyone off that list? I think if they don't resign Xander then they'll still be a 180 million dollar team but you're going to see them with a bunch of 1-2 year deals that might look like overpays but use them as bridges to the next top Sox squad. Its clear that the 2022 Red Sox are not the priority of this management team. If they win then great but I think last years team out performed even what Bloom expected. I admire the guy for staying the course and not overspending and focusing on the future. Hear, hear 100%. I like Bloom and I feel, with incandenza, that Bloom is transparent. My gut tells me that he is an amalgam of Sox and Tampa. I could see us going for the 15-20 million dollar guys but not housing 3-5 30-40 million players. We'll try to be smart around the edges and develop minor league contributors and/or consult our internal version of Delphi to find good but unappreciated or underdeveloped MLB talent.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Mar 16, 2022 14:54:21 GMT -5
The FA class next year is really bad. Do you want them to sign anyone off that list? I think if they don't resign Xander then they'll still be a 180 million dollar team but you're going to see them with a bunch of 1-2 year deals that might look like overpays but use them as bridges to the next top Sox squad. Its clear that the 2022 Red Sox are not the priority of this management team. If they win then great but I think last years team out performed even what Bloom expected. I admire the guy for staying the course and not overspending and focusing on the future. Hear, hear 100%. I like Bloom and I feel, with incandenza, that Bloom is transparent. My gut tells me that he is an amalgam of Sox and Tampa. I could see us going for the 15-20 million dollar guys but not housing 3-5 30-40 million players. We'll try to be smart around the edges and develop minor league contributors and/or consult our internal version of Delphi to find good but unappreciated or underdeveloped MLB talent. If he was like that but kept established home grown stars I could see that. This is what Friedman did with the Dodgers. Home grown established stars got paid. However, as we've already seen with #50 that might not be the way ownership wants him to do it. So then you become a bigger market Oakland As or Tampa Rays where you get the best production you can from pre free agency players then either move them the year before or get a QO pick back. The Red Sox aren't going to ever be a 120 million dollar team unless something crazy happens. But, I could see ownership saying nothing over 210-220. Setting a budget is nothing new and has been the norm since DD left.
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Post by sarasoxer on Mar 16, 2022 15:12:20 GMT -5
Hear, hear 100%. I like Bloom and I feel, with incandenza, that Bloom is transparent. My gut tells me that he is an amalgam of Sox and Tampa. I could see us going for the 15-20 million dollar guys but not housing 3-5 30-40 million players. We'll try to be smart around the edges and develop minor league contributors and/or consult our internal version of Delphi to find good but unappreciated or underdeveloped MLB talent. If he was like that but kept established home grown stars I could see that. This is what Friedman did with the Dodgers. Home grown established stars got paid. However, as we've already seen with #50 that might not be the way ownership wants him to do it. So then you become a bigger market Oakland As or Tampa Rays where you get the best production you can from pre free agency players then either move them the year before or get a QO pick back. The Red Sox aren't going to ever be a 120 million dollar team unless something crazy happens. But, I could see ownership saying nothing over 210-220. Setting a budget is nothing new and has been the norm since DD left. Yeah, we aren't going to not spend but big name long term contract offers for those 'from away' is in the Sox trash heap. I believe that Bloom feels that he can get better being smarter.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 16, 2022 15:57:58 GMT -5
So I have this whole schtick where I like to point out that Bloom is not some mysterious oracle we have to interpret, but a guy who is rather open about his strategic thinking, and one thing he has said in public, repeatedly, is that the team has been in on certain top-line free agents. I believe he's even said they've been close at times, but never quite pulled the trigger. It's not like they're philosophically opposed to it. I will almost guarantee that the Red Sox sign at least one "top player," if not this offseason then next.
I mean, they have all of $79 million committed for 2023. How can they not sign at least one top player? You can't Renfroe-and-Wacha your way to a $230 million payroll.
You have mentioned this. He has been in charge for 3 years and has not even come close to signing a single player of which you describe. And having discussions doesn't mean close. Close means putting ink to paper. Of course it will happen in some form or fashion. However, he is risk adverse to large dollar signings and that can't really be debated. The majority of this thread was that the Suzuki signing was a foregone conclusion, in part, because of the resigning on JBJ. Well, here we are. I don't know how anyone can feel anything but disappointment, truthfully.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 16, 2022 16:02:49 GMT -5
Hear, hear 100%. I like Bloom and I feel, with incandenza, that Bloom is transparent. My gut tells me that he is an amalgam of Sox and Tampa. I could see us going for the 15-20 million dollar guys but not housing 3-5 30-40 million players. We'll try to be smart around the edges and develop minor league contributors and/or consult our internal version of Delphi to find good but unappreciated or underdeveloped MLB talent. If he was like that but kept established home grown stars I could see that. This is what Friedman did with the Dodgers. Home grown established stars got paid. However, as we've already seen with #50 that might not be the way ownership wants him to do it. So then you become a bigger market Oakland As or Tampa Rays where you get the best production you can from pre free agency players then either move them the year before or get a QO pick back. The Red Sox aren't going to ever be a 120 million dollar team unless something crazy happens. But, I could see ownership saying nothing over 210-220. Setting a budget is nothing new and has been the norm since DD left. If the Red Sox follow this line of thought, it would be silly. Their financial muscle is one of the advantages they have. They should be up to or near the threshold every year. Matter of fact, they have been. Even in years that they went over, it was minimal. The Sox should never be in a position where they are 90% of the CBT (Which would be 210 or so). It would be very shortsighted. Henry and his group have owned the franchise for 20 years. I am sure they have cut into the mortgage.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 16, 2022 16:09:45 GMT -5
So I have this whole schtick where I like to point out that Bloom is not some mysterious oracle we have to interpret, but a guy who is rather open about his strategic thinking, and one thing he has said in public, repeatedly, is that the team has been in on certain top-line free agents. I believe he's even said they've been close at times, but never quite pulled the trigger. It's not like they're philosophically opposed to it. I will almost guarantee that the Red Sox sign at least one "top player," if not this offseason then next.
I mean, they have all of $79 million committed for 2023. How can they not sign at least one top player? You can't Renfroe-and-Wacha your way to a $230 million payroll.
You have mentioned this. He has been in charge for 3 years and has not even come close to signing a single player of which you describe. And having discussions doesn't mean close. Close means putting ink to paper. Of course it will happen in some form or fashion. However, he is risk adverse to large dollar signings and that can't really be debated. The majority of this thread was that the Suzuki signing was a foregone conclusion, in part, because of the resigning on JBJ. Well, here we are. I don't know how anyone can feel anything but disappointment, truthfully. Because that's what Dombrowski left him.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 16, 2022 16:14:42 GMT -5
You have mentioned this. He has been in charge for 3 years and has not even come close to signing a single player of which you describe. And having discussions doesn't mean close. Close means putting ink to paper. Of course it will happen in some form or fashion. However, he is risk adverse to large dollar signings and that can't really be debated. The majority of this thread was that the Suzuki signing was a foregone conclusion, in part, because of the resigning on JBJ. Well, here we are. I don't know how anyone can feel anything but disappointment, truthfully. Because that's what Dombrowski left him. no. it isn't. it has been 3 years of trimming. if that was such an impediment, trade the guys who cost too much and sign new large contracts. Eat some salary. Whatever. He has shown no propensity to enter FA market and your argument is a red herring.
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Post by manfred on Mar 16, 2022 16:16:11 GMT -5
You have mentioned this. He has been in charge for 3 years and has not even come close to signing a single player of which you describe. And having discussions doesn't mean close. Close means putting ink to paper. Of course it will happen in some form or fashion. However, he is risk adverse to large dollar signings and that can't really be debated. The majority of this thread was that the Suzuki signing was a foregone conclusion, in part, because of the resigning on JBJ. Well, here we are. I don't know how anyone can feel anything but disappointment, truthfully. Because that's what Dombrowski left him. That is bogus: they reset in 2020, stayed under last year. And they are under now. You can’t blame DD for last off season or this one. If you want to say they have changed philosophies, fine.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 16, 2022 16:18:01 GMT -5
Because that's what Dombrowski left him. no. it isn't. it has been 3 years of trimming. if that was such an impediment, trade the guys who cost too much and sign new large contracts. Eat some salary. Whatever. He has shown no propensity to enter FA market and your argument is a red herring. Check the payroll and tell me what percentage of it was Dombrowski signings. I'll wait.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 16, 2022 16:18:55 GMT -5
Because that's what Dombrowski left him. That is bogus: they reset in 2020, stayed under last year. And they are under now. You can’t blame DD for last off season or this one. If you want to say they have changed philosophies, fine. So you think that because he's not handcuffing the future, then next year they'll have a $80 million payroll?
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Post by manfred on Mar 16, 2022 16:23:17 GMT -5
That is bogus: they reset in 2020, stayed under last year. And they are under now. You can’t blame DD for last off season or this one. If you want to say they have changed philosophies, fine. So you think that because he's not handcuffing the future, then next year they'll have a $80 million payroll? All I think is blaming Dombrowski 3 years out is absurd. And you can say look at what part of their payroll is holdover. Well, if you want to applaud last season, maybe you should be thankful for the cheap contract for Eovaldi? Signing JDM? etc etc. You can’t have it both ways. How did DD hurt last year’s team?
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 16, 2022 16:23:28 GMT -5
no. it isn't. it has been 3 years of trimming. if that was such an impediment, trade the guys who cost too much and sign new large contracts. Eat some salary. Whatever. He has shown no propensity to enter FA market and your argument is a red herring. Check the payroll and tell me what percentage of it was Dombrowski signings. I'll wait. and so...get rid of some of that payroll. i don't need any numbers to tell me what is patently obvious. If this was actually the case, his job description is to mitigate this "handicap" to entering FA market. Matter of fact, one could argue he is benefitting from the DD era still by having star players who clearly help the team at a higher cost, while foregoing any responsibility to take risk that is mandated by stewardship of a big market team.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 16, 2022 16:26:11 GMT -5
OK, so it's clear that once the payroll is cleared, the Red Sox will have the same budget as the Rays because Bloom never spends any money.
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Post by incandenza on Mar 16, 2022 16:28:29 GMT -5
So I have this whole schtick where I like to point out that Bloom is not some mysterious oracle we have to interpret, but a guy who is rather open about his strategic thinking, and one thing he has said in public, repeatedly, is that the team has been in on certain top-line free agents. I believe he's even said they've been close at times, but never quite pulled the trigger. It's not like they're philosophically opposed to it. I will almost guarantee that the Red Sox sign at least one "top player," if not this offseason then next.
I mean, they have all of $79 million committed for 2023. How can they not sign at least one top player? You can't Renfroe-and-Wacha your way to a $230 million payroll.
You have mentioned this. He has been in charge for 3 years and has not even come close to signing a single player of which you describe. And having discussions doesn't mean close. Close means putting ink to paper. Of course it will happen in some form or fashion. However, he is risk adverse to large dollar signings and that can't really be debated. The majority of this thread was that the Suzuki signing was a foregone conclusion, in part, because of the resigning on JBJ. Well, here we are. I don't know how anyone can feel anything but disappointment, truthfully. The Red Sox have gone right up to the CBT threshold in all two seasons that Bloom has been here. He has not had the chance to make a major signing because Dombrowski used up all the major signing resources they had before he got here.
And it still might happen this offseason! Can we revisit the topic after Freeman, Story, and Correa have signed?
Incidentally, I'm still predicting Devers gets extended soon - something Bloom has mentioned was a priority for the team this offseason. (If you listen to what Bloom actually says, etc. etc....) Would that count as a major signing?
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Post by manfred on Mar 16, 2022 16:32:26 GMT -5
This stuff is interesting, and though I have thoughts, this has ranged away from Suzuki, so I’ll let it go.
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Post by incandenza on Mar 16, 2022 16:34:19 GMT -5
So you think that because he's not handcuffing the future, then next year they'll have a $80 million payroll? All I think is blaming Dombrowski 3 years out is absurd. And you can say look at what part of their payroll is holdover. Well, if you want to applaud last season, maybe you should be thankful for the cheap contract for Eovaldi? Signing JDM? etc etc. You can’t have it both ways. How did DD hurt last year’s team? Oh come on. On this specific issue, of course you have to "blame" Dombrowski! You don't even have to disagree with the moves Dombrowski made - signing Price, Sale, Eovaldi, Martinez, extending Bogaerts - but it's obviously the case that all that payroll being tied up is the specific reason Bloom hasn't had the chance until now to sign a major free agent.
Next offseason, with 4 of those 5 current contracts off the books, this will absolutely be Bloom's roster. But for now the team's finances are mostly a legacy of Dombrowski.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 16, 2022 16:34:32 GMT -5
You have mentioned this. He has been in charge for 3 years and has not even come close to signing a single player of which you describe. And having discussions doesn't mean close. Close means putting ink to paper. Of course it will happen in some form or fashion. However, he is risk adverse to large dollar signings and that can't really be debated. The majority of this thread was that the Suzuki signing was a foregone conclusion, in part, because of the resigning on JBJ. Well, here we are. I don't know how anyone can feel anything but disappointment, truthfully. The Red Sox have gone right up to the CBT threshold in all two seasons that Bloom has been here. He has not had the chance to make a major signing because Dombrowski used up all the major signing resources they had before he got here.
And it still might happen this offseason! Can we revisit the topic after Freeman, Story, and Correa have signed?
Incidentally, I'm still predicting Devers gets extended soon - something Bloom has mentioned was a priority for the team this offseason. (If you listen to what Bloom actually says, etc. etc....) Would that count as a major signing?
i am sorry, but this argument about DD is really sad. I appreiciate yours and JimEd's posts, but it makes no sense to say, "i am happy that we made the ALCS, but I really wanted to cut/trade some of these guys and show my teeth in the FA market". He has clearly benefitted from that roster construction. For me, the Devers signing isn't the same thing. They have just have a different set of cirucumstances, him being home grown. However, if the past is prologue, I would put it as a 50/50 proposition. it is gonna cost 250 million, at a minimum. The most he has spent is 14million or so, IIRC.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 16, 2022 16:39:10 GMT -5
All I think is blaming Dombrowski 3 years out is absurd. And you can say look at what part of their payroll is holdover. Well, if you want to applaud last season, maybe you should be thankful for the cheap contract for Eovaldi? Signing JDM? etc etc. You can’t have it both ways. How did DD hurt last year’s team? Oh come on. On this specific issue, of course you have to "blame" Dombrowski! You don't even have to disagree with the moves Dombrowski made - signing Price, Sale, Eovaldi, Martinez, extending Bogaerts - but it's obviously the case that all that payroll being tied up is the specific reason Bloom hasn't had the chance until now to sign a major free agent.
Next offseason, with 4 of those 5 current contracts off the books, this will absolutely be Bloom's roster. But for now the team's finances are mostly a legacy of Dombrowski.
No. they aren't. he could have traded them and taken the risk of having his own roster in year 1.
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Post by incandenza on Mar 16, 2022 16:39:36 GMT -5
The Red Sox have gone right up to the CBT threshold in all two seasons that Bloom has been here. He has not had the chance to make a major signing because Dombrowski used up all the major signing resources they had before he got here.
And it still might happen this offseason! Can we revisit the topic after Freeman, Story, and Correa have signed?
Incidentally, I'm still predicting Devers gets extended soon - something Bloom has mentioned was a priority for the team this offseason. (If you listen to what Bloom actually says, etc. etc....) Would that count as a major signing?
i am sorry, but this argument about DD is really sad. I appreiciate yours and JimEd's posts, but it makes no sense to say, "i am happy that we made the ALCS, but I really wanted to cut/trade some of these guys and show my teeth in the FA market". For me, the Devers signing isn't the same thing. They have just have a different set of cirucumstances, him being home grown. However, if the past is prologue, I would put it as a 50/50 proposition. it is gonna cost 250 million, at a minimum. The most he has spent is 14million or so, IIRC. It's not an argument about Dombrowski at all! Why are you and manfred reading it that way? Dombroski was a genius, okay? His valor and gumption won them the 2018 World Series singlehandedly. I'll grant you all of that. The fact remains, DD's free agent signings - every one of them a brilliant move! - used up the resources the team had to spend on big money free agents. Bloom has simply had smaller margins to play with.
All that is sort of changing this offseason (Bloom may yet make a big splash), but next season is definitely the time when we can judge Bloom's approach to big money free agency.
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Post by incandenza on Mar 16, 2022 16:41:51 GMT -5
Oh come on. On this specific issue, of course you have to "blame" Dombrowski! You don't even have to disagree with the moves Dombrowski made - signing Price, Sale, Eovaldi, Martinez, extending Bogaerts - but it's obviously the case that all that payroll being tied up is the specific reason Bloom hasn't had the chance until now to sign a major free agent.
Next offseason, with 4 of those 5 current contracts off the books, this will absolutely be Bloom's roster. But for now the team's finances are mostly a legacy of Dombrowski.
No. they aren't. he could have traded them and taken the risk of having his own roster in year 1. He literally traded one of those guys the first chance he got - a secondary piece in a rather substantial trade, if you'll recall.
In any case, are you now saying that Bloom is responsible for Sale, Eovaldi, Martinez, and Bogaerts being on the roster? So I guess he's not averse to having expensive players on the roster after all...?
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