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Post by bosoxnation on Dec 1, 2021 21:35:12 GMT -5
Now I would talk to Verdugo about an extension. Why? Just because you can get him cheaper than Devers? I like Verdugo well enough, but there is nothing special about him. He's basically decent at everything but excellent at nothing. Why tie him up to a long-term deal to give you 2-3 WAR a year? 1. because we traded Mookie for him and the longer he plays the more he’s going to cost. 2. They said during the playoffs, statistically Verdugo was the best hitter in all of baseball with 2 strikes. I would say that’s a pretty important thing to be “excellent” at.
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Post by manfred on Dec 1, 2021 21:44:48 GMT -5
Why? Just because you can get him cheaper than Devers? I like Verdugo well enough, but there is nothing special about him. He's basically decent at everything but excellent at nothing. Why tie him up to a long-term deal to give you 2-3 WAR a year? 1. because we traded Mookie for him and the longer he plays the more he’s going to cost. 2. They said during the playoffs, statistically Verdugo was the best hitter in all of baseball with 2 strikes. I would say that’s a pretty important thing to be “excellent” at. He should get two strikes more, then!
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Post by soxaddict on Mar 20, 2022 7:30:59 GMT -5
Could Devers be extended with the same deal Matt Olsen got from Atalanta? 8 years/$168M (2022-29), plus 2030 option.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 20, 2022 7:45:34 GMT -5
Could Devers be extended with the same deal Matt Olsen got from Atalanta? 8 years/$168M (2022-29), plus 2030 option. I doubt it for two reasons. Devers is a better offensive player, although one could disagree, and I could understand the point of view. But there's a few years age diffence. Olson is in his age 28 season. He's at his best now. Devers is in his age 25. There's still room for him to grow offensively. I would think Devers because of his younger age could get 10 years and if waits and continues to blossom he should get somewhere between 25 - 30 million per year if he can stay viable at 3b. I don't think 8 and 168 gets it done for Raffy.
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Post by kwodes on Mar 20, 2022 7:52:07 GMT -5
If I had to guess I'd say they are obviously willing to extend him, but realize that his future (the team's too) is him at 1B/DH with Xander at 3B. So a 10/300 contract for a 1B (elite offensively yes, but still a 1B) seems inefficient. Especially with Casas coming.
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Post by soxaddict on Mar 20, 2022 9:00:08 GMT -5
Could Devers be extended with the same deal Matt Olsen got from Atalanta? 8 years/$168M (2022-29), plus 2030 option. I doubt it for two reasons. Devers is a better offensive player, although one could disagree, and I could understand the point of view. But there's a few years age diffence. Olson is in his age 28 season. He's at his best now. Devers is in his age 25. There's still room for him to grow offensively. I would think Devers because of his younger age could get 10 years and if waits and continues to blossom he should get somewhere between 25 - 30 million per year if he can stay viable at 3b. I don't think 8 and 168 gets it done for Raffy. To you think any team will view Devers as more than a DH in two years? I don't see many teams giving out 10 year deals to that type of player, but I could be wrong. Olson is an elite defender at 1B. Devers is three years younger, but defensively he doesn't offer much.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 20, 2022 9:37:09 GMT -5
I doubt it for two reasons. Devers is a better offensive player, although one could disagree, and I could understand the point of view. But there's a few years age diffence. Olson is in his age 28 season. He's at his best now. Devers is in his age 25. There's still room for him to grow offensively. I would think Devers because of his younger age could get 10 years and if waits and continues to blossom he should get somewhere between 25 - 30 million per year if he can stay viable at 3b. I don't think 8 and 168 gets it done for Raffy. To you think any team will view Devers as more than a DH in two years? I don't see many teams giving out 10 year deals to that type of player, but I could be wrong. Olson is an elite defender at 1B. Devers is three years younger, but defensively he doesn't offer much. Perhaps. To have an extension happen the Sox have to meet the terms of what Devers is seeking. I doubt he says to himself, "I'm a DH and I'm not worth as much as a 3b is", so the DH thing might be for Bloom to consider and perhaps you're right and everybody else sees DH, but if they're trying to extend them Devers has no idea that others see him as a DH (too) so perhaps he turns down the extension if it's not treated like he's a 3b, monster hitting 1b - and keep in mind he'd be 36 by the time a 10 year deal ended, not 38 or 39, but on an open market perhaps the contract offers reflect a guy who's short-term future is DH, but then again there's always one team looking to make a splash, so who knows. But then again I said it looks like Trevor Story is headed to Houston...and now he's a Red Sox. So what do I know?!
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Post by Guidas on Mar 20, 2022 9:38:48 GMT -5
I think Devers ends up at 1st base or LF. The bat will play anywhere, so he's going to get paid at the top of the market for his OWAR, especially. I don't think 10 years is crazy in this market. It's also probably more likely to get done if there are opt-outs in years 3 or 4 so he can get a second bite at the apple.
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Post by jdb on Mar 20, 2022 9:42:05 GMT -5
I think given his age the Arenado contract at 9 yrs and 275 is the floor. Hopefully we get something done soon.
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Post by scottysmalls on Mar 20, 2022 10:29:06 GMT -5
I don’t agree with the notion that Devers definitely will have to move from 3rd. I think that would be the case if his range was terrible but it’s not. I still believe his defensive issues are resolvable and he could get better in the future.
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Post by soxaddict on Apr 6, 2022 19:47:55 GMT -5
Has the Red Sox rejected offer been made public?
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Post by bellhorndingers21 on Apr 6, 2022 20:45:37 GMT -5
Has the Red Sox rejected offer been made public? No but Hector Gomez, the guy who got the scoop on the rejected offer, just tweeted it was higher then what Ramirez accepted and that the Sox will make a follow up offer.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Apr 6, 2022 21:32:50 GMT -5
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,204
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Post by cdj on Apr 6, 2022 22:12:01 GMT -5
I have a bad feeling they won’t commit to him the way Devers wants. He’s gonna want a deal that allows him to hit FA in his early prime or that runs until he’s 35/36. He also may be a 1B/DH only type within the next couple of years and they have Casas at 1B. The question is do you want to pay $25+ mill over a very long term to a DH?
For me yes because Raffy is my favorite player, but that may not be the smart thing to do.
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Post by stunzisox on Apr 6, 2022 22:17:22 GMT -5
I have a bad feeling they won’t commit to him the way Devers wants. He’s gonna want a deal that allows him to hit FA in his early prime or that runs until he’s 35/36. He also may be a 1B/DH only type within the next couple of years and they have Casas at 1B. The question is do you want to pay $25+ mill over a very long term to a DH? For me yes because Raffy is my favorite player, but that may not be the smart thing to do. My sentiment exactly
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Post by rico6 on Apr 6, 2022 23:12:48 GMT -5
So, if I'm reading the Hector Gomez info correctly, the Sox offer was very far off from what Devers wants. And that the offer to Raffy was better than Jose Ramirez' deal with Cleveland. I believe that deal was 5/124 or almost 25 million per year. If that is very far off from what Devers is looking for, I too have a bad feeling that an extension won't be reached. Is it a 10/300 deal that he wants? If so, I'm in agreement with cdj that it may be a lot to pay over the long-term for a DH.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Apr 6, 2022 23:21:49 GMT -5
I have a bad feeling they won’t commit to him the way Devers wants. He’s gonna want a deal that allows him to hit FA in his early prime or that runs until he’s 35/36. He also may be a 1B/DH only type within the next couple of years and they have Casas at 1B. The question is do you want to pay $25+ mill over a very long term to a DH? For me yes because Raffy is my favorite player, but that may not be the smart thing to do. Given his age, I wouldn't have an issue with a 10-year contract. I'm worried he's looking for 12+ with an opt-out and a no trade clause. I'm also not sure why he would be a 1B/DH within the next couple of years. Given that he's only 25, he should have 4-6 more years before there's a clear decline in defensive skills (depending on how well he takes care of his body). FWIW, his defensive stats don't show a clear regression as long as you remove 2019 - which appears to be an outlier year (in UZR and OAA) If the deal is ~10/250 w/o an opt-out or no-trade clause, count me all-in. It's a lot, but if he can still DH the last few years, given expected payroll increases, it should stay above water.
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cdj
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Posts: 14,204
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Post by cdj on Apr 7, 2022 0:45:47 GMT -5
I have a bad feeling they won’t commit to him the way Devers wants. He’s gonna want a deal that allows him to hit FA in his early prime or that runs until he’s 35/36. He also may be a 1B/DH only type within the next couple of years and they have Casas at 1B. The question is do you want to pay $25+ mill over a very long term to a DH? For me yes because Raffy is my favorite player, but that may not be the smart thing to do. Given his age, I wouldn't have an issue with a 10-year contract. I'm worried he's looking for 12+ with an opt-out and a no trade clause. I'm also not sure why he would be a 1B/DH within the next couple of years. Given that he's only 25, he should have 4-6 more years before there's a clear decline in defensive skills (depending on how well he takes care of his body). FWIW, his defensive stats don't show a clear regression as long as you remove 2019 - which appears to be an outlier year (in UZR and OAA) If the deal is ~10/250 w/o an opt-out or no-trade clause, count me all-in. It's a lot, but if he can still DH the last few years, given expected payroll increases, it should stay above water. He’s a big boy and idk, that defense may not have shown much regression because there’s not much to regress from. It’s been bad as a whole, despite him having his moments from time to time I’d be in for 10/250. Idk if the Sox or Raffy would be though
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Post by bosoxnation on Apr 7, 2022 2:17:38 GMT -5
I’m in at 6 years 180.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Apr 7, 2022 4:31:11 GMT -5
Still too high, he's going to end up as a DH, Sox can't mortgage the future with a DH, regardless how well he has perform. Same applies to X, the time of paying for pass performance is over. The is a business where they have to get enough flexibility going forward, there are always players available that will get the same job done for less. The players play for the most money they can get(COOL), the team needs to find the best value for their money. We have lost star players after start players and we are still the best. The Sox have also replaced those star players they lost with other star players. If you want them to let these guys go in favor of value then the Sox probably won't win it all but they'll be competitive year in and out. But like Oakland and Tampa will not win. Eventually they're going to have to commit big long term money again to someone...
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Post by nuttyredsox on Apr 7, 2022 5:09:34 GMT -5
Still too high, he's going to end up as a DH, Sox can't mortgage the future with a DH, regardless how well he has perform. Same applies to X, the time of paying for pass performance is over. The is a business where they have to get enough flexibility going forward, there are always players available that will get the same job done for less. The players play for the most money they can get(COOL), the team needs to find the best value for their money. We have lost star players after start players and we are still the best. The Sox have also replaced those star players they lost with other star players. If you want them to let these guys go in favor of value then the Sox probably won't win it all but they'll be competitive year in and out. But like Oakland and Tampa will not win. Eventually they're going to have to commit big long term money again to someone... It's becoming BORING COMPARING, Oakland, Tampa Bay and so on with the Red Sox, only people without arguments keep bringing this up. People are forgetting the we have won world series in the last few years after a long time waiting plus all the bad signings and destruction of the farm system. A balance is required so we can be extremely competitive and have enough cap to sign the right players at the right time. At this time. I don't care if we sign a player from the street that wants to be with the RS over a homegrown as long as he gets the job done. The time of players spend their careers with a team is over and I no longer care if they stay or they go.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Apr 7, 2022 5:45:41 GMT -5
The Sox have also replaced those star players they lost with other star players. If you want them to let these guys go in favor of value then the Sox probably won't win it all but they'll be competitive year in and out. But like Oakland and Tampa will not win. Eventually they're going to have to commit big long term money again to someone... It's becoming BORING COMPARING, Oakland, Tampa Bay and so on with the Red Sox, only people without arguments keep bringing this up. People are forgetting the we have won world series in the last few years after a long time waiting plus all the bad signings and destruction of the farm system. A balance is required so we can be extremely competitive and have enough cap to sign the right players at the right time. At this time. I don't care if we sign a player from the street that wants to be with the RS over a homegrown as long as he gets the job done. The time of players spend their careers with a team is over and I no longer care if they stay or they go. I'm glad you brought up 2018. Look at the roster of that 2018 team. The ace of the team was David Price. The same David Price that signed the richest contract for a pitcher in team history. The DH was JD Martinez who at the time was the highest paid DH in the game. They had a steady influx of young talent such as Benny Erod Devers etc but they also paid a lot of money for that roster. So like I said...if you're getting rid of these guys for players that are much cheaper but give you say 80% of what you could get from those players, who are you? You're the Rays and A's. It doesn't work for the Sox. You don't need a $300 million payroll to win but you do need stars and you need to retain those players. Especially home-grown ones like Xander and Devers. If you want to replace JD was Casas then fine. It saves money and the kid looks like he can mash. Even though he could easily flop and you then would have a huge hole in the lineup. Replace JBJ with Duran? Fine. Erod with Wacha? No. Especially given that Erod had the best "value" of any contract signed this offseason. You could also do Xander with Mayer or Yorke with Story but its much too soon for those. Pay your bonefide stars and be smart on who you surround them with. Don't get rid of stars and hope and pray you can replace Devers with the generic brand Devers.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 7, 2022 6:29:26 GMT -5
I think this shows that the Sox are going to have to give market rate for Devers and if they're going to retain him, they'll have to pay full market rate, the market that a long-term 3b would have, rather than a DH.
The Sox might value Devers as a long-term DH/1b and would pay him as such over the long-term, but Devers clearly sees himself as a 3b long-term. The defensive skills are there even if the results haven't been.
So I would anticipate that Devers is seeking to be paid the way Arenado got paid, or Rendon, and with his youth and the ability to improve, I would guess that any conversation of extension that isn't at least 10 years $300 million, won't make Devers want to stay. Honestly, I believe some team would give him that or even more on the open market and it's obvious Devers is willing to bet that he can that on the open market.
If the Sox are unwilling to pay that, then their choices are to get a stopgap 3b and perhaps move Story to 3b when Mayer is ready to take over SS. They can moved Dalbec there as Casa would be at 1b. Long-term they could hope Blaze Jordan or Alex Binelas can handle 3b and is an impact hitter.
Or if Devers is somebody they're not willing to bend for, then perhaps that increases the odds that they extend Bogaerts who would cost far less than Devers to keep and who could slide over to 3b and in time play reasonably well there.
I'd prefer they go all out and give him the big bucks, but then again I felt the same way about Mookie, and the Sox have shown that if they don't want to pay top $, they'll move on. I'm starting to suspect that will be the case here.
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Post by chrisfromnc on Apr 7, 2022 6:42:13 GMT -5
Count me with those who don’t think it is certain that he will end up moving off third base. I think it is likely, but there is plenty of room to speculate that his defense will not be an albatross at third base for the next five years. I’d like the Sox to offer him an extension that accounts for either outcome.
How about structure it year by year based on positional starts? If he’s at third the majority of his starts, he’s getting X in the following year. If he’s a 1B, it’s X - 10% or whatever, if he’s a DH, it’s X - 15% or whatever. You’d want the number X to be really generous (like over 28 million). Make the offer a nine or ten year deal and make the guy know he is appreciated.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 7, 2022 6:51:39 GMT -5
Count me with those who don’t think it is certain that he will end up moving off third base. I think it is likely, but there is plenty of room to speculate that his defense will not be an albatross at third base for the next five years. I’d like the Sox to offer him an extension that accounts for either outcome. How about structure it year by year based on positional starts? If he’s at third the majority of his starts, he’s getting X in the following year. If he’s a 1B, it’s X - 10% or whatever, if he’s a DH, it’s X - 15% or whatever. You’d want the number X to be really generous (like over 28 million). Make the offer a nine or ten year deal and make the guy know he is appreciated. I think he will eventually move off of 3b...but probably in 7 - 8 years, not imminently like some others think. He's been error prone, but he's still pretty young and I think those lapses will dissipate as he matures. I think he has good defensive skills. I think he can make the difficult play that some struggle with. If he matures defensively this year and continues to mature offensively, his price is only going to go up. His offense has begun to mature as you see his walk total rise substantially. My guess is that Devers will increase his market substantially after this season completes and if the Sox wait on committing to him at top $, those dollars will get bigger and they will lose out. In my opinion if he were a stock, I'd invest heavily in him as I believe he's going to go up and that there's another level offensively and defensively that Devers can and will elevate to. And the thought of him becoming a free agent and perhaps being a guy the Yankees splurge on after next year is kind of a frightening thought (I could see the Mets going all in on him too).
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