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6/20-6/22 Red Sox vs. Tigers Series Thread
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Post by Guidas on Jun 21, 2022 12:59:25 GMT -5
Okay and? He got major league hitters out effectively. No one is out here thinking he's an ace but he is, at least, a useful option. Pretty weird behavior for a Red Sox "fan" to crap all over what is pretty neutral respect for a performance. My point is he was getting some significant contact throughout the game by a team as bad as Detroit and very few swings and misses. That ended up working last night because of some batted ball luck and a couple defensive plays, but, as a Red Sox fan, I don’t want to see this guy or Crawford starting against any AL East team not named The Orioles, or Houston, Cleveland, Minnesota or any other team over .450.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 21, 2022 13:42:52 GMT -5
I guess I give up talking to people about expected stats. Verdugo sucks, even with a higher xwOBA than Xander.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jun 21, 2022 14:08:08 GMT -5
I guess I give up talking to people about expected stats. Verdugo sucks, even with a higher xwOBA than Xander. Don’t you think that might show the weakness of that stat? What does it mean if it says Verdugo is doing better than X, despite, well, *all* other evidence?
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 21, 2022 14:26:01 GMT -5
I guess I give up talking to people about expected stats. Verdugo sucks, even with a higher xwOBA than Xander. Don’t you think that might show the weakness of that stat? What does it mean if it says Verdugo is doing better than X, despite, well, *all* other evidence? All Dugie needs is 11,280 stinking votes..err hits:)
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 21, 2022 14:28:58 GMT -5
I guess I give up talking to people about expected stats. Verdugo sucks, even with a higher xwOBA than Xander. Yeah there’s no real point, they don’t understand that water finds its level and they’ll be silent when he inevitably does just that
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jun 21, 2022 14:37:53 GMT -5
I guess I give up talking to people about expected stats. Verdugo sucks, even with a higher xwOBA than Xander. Yeah there’s no real point, they don’t understand that water finds its level and they’ll be silent when he inevitably does just that I am not saying he sucks, but when you say “his level,” what do you expect? He is a career 104 OPS+, so he is having an off year, but he is not having an insanely off year. He has a career slugging of .429, so it isn’t like we should expect some sudden explosion. He should be better, and he probably will be by year’s end. But I wouldn’t die on the Verdugo-is-badly-underestimated hill.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 21, 2022 14:45:14 GMT -5
Verdugo (xwOBA .338, .261 BABIP), Franchy (xwOBA .382) and Dalbec (xwOBA .311, BABIP .261) are having significant bad luck so far. Here's hoping it changes.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 21, 2022 14:46:42 GMT -5
I guess I give up talking to people about expected stats. Verdugo sucks, even with a higher xwOBA than Xander. Yeah there’s no real point, they don’t understand that water finds its level and they’ll be silent when he inevitably does just that water may find it's level, but erosion occurs while it does. add: it isn't just about expectations after contact, he clearly missed fastballs last night that were middle-middle from a right who was getting knocked around. T
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 21, 2022 15:01:40 GMT -5
I guess I give up talking to people about expected stats. Verdugo sucks, even with a higher xwOBA than Xander. Don’t you think that might show the weakness of that stat? No. If only there were still GMs of teams who also didn't care about or understand advanced statcast data, you'd be able to rip them off in every trade over and over again. However, there are zero GMs that don't understand that anymore. Just fans.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jun 21, 2022 15:22:24 GMT -5
Don’t you think that might show the weakness of that stat? No. If only there were still GMs of teams who also didn't care about or understand advanced statcast data, you'd be able to rip them off in every trade over and over again. However, there are zero GMs that don't understand that anymore. Just fans. Well, if they all get it, I wish Bloom would sell “high” on Verdugo.
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Post by rico6 on Jun 21, 2022 15:52:52 GMT -5
No. If only there were still GMs of teams who also didn't care about or understand advanced statcast data, you'd be able to rip them off in every trade over and over again. However, there are zero GMs that don't understand that anymore. Just fans. Well, if they all get it, I wish Bloom would sell “high” on Verdugo. If you could sell high on Verdugo for a good return, that would open a spot for Duran.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 21, 2022 15:53:45 GMT -5
The time to sell high on Verdugo was trading him instead of Benintendi. It would be selling low now.
Instead they sold low on Benintendi. Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 21, 2022 15:58:50 GMT -5
No. If only there were still GMs of teams who also didn't care about or understand advanced statcast data, you'd be able to rip them off in every trade over and over again. However, there are zero GMs that don't understand that anymore. Just fans. Well, if they all get it, I wish Bloom would sell “high” on Verdugo. Other teams would all want to buy low on Verdugo but Bloom isn't stupid since statcast data predicts the future if a batter continues hitting exactly the same way he is hitting now. If you're into fantasy sports, this is how you take advantage of people that don't get it.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 21, 2022 16:05:58 GMT -5
The time to sell high on Verdugo was trading him instead of Benintendi. It would be selling low now. Instead they sold low on Benintendi. Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose. The funny thing is that they are pretty much the same player with much different levels of luck. Benintendi: 1 outs above average in LF Verdugo: 2 outs above average in LF Benintendi: .340 xwOBA .337 wOBA Verdugo: .338 xwOB .281 wOBA
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Jun 21, 2022 16:12:24 GMT -5
They aren't trading Hernandez or Verdugo at the deadline. What the hell is even the point of these arguments?
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Post by wkdbigsoxfan on Jun 21, 2022 17:02:15 GMT -5
Now that the Sox are easily in the playoff picture, shouldn’t be an issue to spend the rest of the year. Time to buy more prospects. I’ll take one (1) Eric Hosmer and multiple prospects. Thanks in advance
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Post by Canseco on Jun 21, 2022 17:05:19 GMT -5
Now that the Sox are easily in the playoff picture, shouldn’t be an issue to spend the rest of the year. Time to buy more prospects. I’ll take one (1) Eric Hosmer and multiple prospects. Thanks in advance Not if it hamstrings Bloom in getting Devers and/or Bogaerts extended. I’m so tired of investing in outsiders and not having enough left to re-sign our homegrown star(s).
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 21, 2022 17:14:34 GMT -5
Yeah there’s no real point, they don’t understand that water finds its level and they’ll be silent when he inevitably does just that water may find it's level, but erosion occurs while it does. add: it isn't just about expectations after contact, he clearly missed fastballs last night that were middle-middle from a right who was getting knocked around. T Do you think he fell off the table at age 25 or do you think maybe just maybe the underlying stats which say he’s the most unlucky hitter in the league might be onto something? Like is everything he’s shown in his career up until this season what he actually is or is it the 2.5 months of clearly unlucky baseball? Hard to say
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 21, 2022 17:16:35 GMT -5
Yeah there’s no real point, they don’t understand that water finds its level and they’ll be silent when he inevitably does just that I am not saying he sucks, but when you say “his level,” what do you expect? He is a career 104 OPS+, so he is having an off year, but he is not having an insanely off year. He has a career slugging of .429, so it isn’t like we should expect some sudden explosion. He should be better, and he probably will be by year’s end. But I wouldn’t die on the Verdugo-is-badly-underestimated hill. I expect like a 105-110 OPS+ with elite contact skills and good defense in LF. That’s a very valuable player. People think he sucks. That’s dumb and a hill I am absolutely willing to die on because I see his predictive stats and understand what they mean. His slash line is .247/.290/.356. I absolutely think he’s much better than that.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 21, 2022 17:40:39 GMT -5
Duran Devers Martinez Bogaerts Verdugo Story Cordero Vazquez JBJ
Vs Beau Brieske, who I’ve never heard of
Doing pretty well this year so far though, good for him. Very gopher-prone so there’s luck involved in having that low ERA but not bad from a 27th round pick out of CSU-Pueblo
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Post by redsoxpride34 on Jun 21, 2022 17:48:21 GMT -5
I am not saying he sucks, but when you say “his level,” what do you expect? He is a career 104 OPS+, so he is having an off year, but he is not having an insanely off year. He has a career slugging of .429, so it isn’t like we should expect some sudden explosion. He should be better, and he probably will be by year’s end. But I wouldn’t die on the Verdugo-is-badly-underestimated hill. I expect like a 105-110 OPS+ with elite contact skills and good defense in LF. That’s a very valuable player. People think he sucks. That’s dumb and a hill I am absolutely willing to die on because I see his predictive stats and understand what they mean. His slash line is .247/.290/.356. I absolutely think he’s much better than that. I think part of the problem is that he is playing LF instead of RF where his bat and skillset would be more valuable. A big part of his value as the centerpiece of the betts trade was his supposed ability to play strong defense in RF. His bat and overall value are simply not as high in LF.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jun 21, 2022 18:02:36 GMT -5
I am not saying he sucks, but when you say “his level,” what do you expect? He is a career 104 OPS+, so he is having an off year, but he is not having an insanely off year. He has a career slugging of .429, so it isn’t like we should expect some sudden explosion. He should be better, and he probably will be by year’s end. But I wouldn’t die on the Verdugo-is-badly-underestimated hill. I expect like a 105-110 OPS+ with elite contact skills and good defense in LF. That’s a very valuable player. People think he sucks. That’s dumb and a hill I am absolutely willing to die on because I see his predictive stats and understand what they mean. His slash line is .247/.290/.356. I absolutely think he’s much better than that. That is not crazy, obviously. I am not sure he is going to be a 110 OPS+ typically, though he could be much higher for stretches. But other than outliers who think he either sucks or he is an all-star caliber player, I suspect most of us see him as a slightly above average guy.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jun 21, 2022 18:24:00 GMT -5
Whatever else about Rich Hill, seeing a 42-year old hit 90 is always impressive. I’m older than him, but if I try to hit 60 on one of those carnival radar things, I’m just lucky my shoulder doesn’t explode.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jun 21, 2022 18:31:12 GMT -5
I guess I give up talking to people about expected stats. Verdugo sucks, even with a higher xwOBA than Xander. BA and RBIs for hitters, W's for SPs and fielding % for defense. That's what the best front offices value.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Jun 21, 2022 18:41:40 GMT -5
Okay and? He got major league hitters out effectively. No one is out here thinking he's an ace but he is, at least, a useful option. Pretty weird behavior for a Red Sox "fan" to crap all over what is pretty neutral respect for a performance. My point is he was getting some significant contact throughout the game by a team as bad as Detroit and very few swings and misses. That ended up working last night because of some batted ball luck and a couple defensive plays, but, as a Red Sox fan, I don’t want to see this guy or Crawford starting against any AL East team not named The Orioles, or Houston, Cleveland, Minnesota or any other team over .450. But... Winckowski isn't really the guy who's hunting swings and misses. He's a sinker baller who is pitching to weak contact. Houston, Cleveland, hell even the Yankees can run together a bunch of ground balls and before you know it, it's the 6th inning. Winck should also limit homers. I guess we will see his next start is Vs. Groot and The Guardians of the Galaxy...er I mean lake Erie.
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