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Where did things go wrong?
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Post by kingofthetrill on Dec 9, 2022 9:39:07 GMT -5
Sometimes I feel like we went more wrong as a fanbase than we did as a team. Some days I wish that I could swap certain Red Sox fans for some certain fans of any other fanbase.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Dec 9, 2022 9:58:50 GMT -5
Sometimes I feel like we went more wrong as a fanbase than we did as a team. Some days I wish that I could swap certain Red Sox fans for some certain fans of any other fanbase. quite an authoritarian opinion there.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 9, 2022 12:05:34 GMT -5
Pay your homegrown talent! Should they? If your homegrown talent isn't as good as what else you could get, is it really the right thing to do to keep the homegrown players? There's two different ways of looking at this: pay homegrown talent when they are years from FA and hopefully cheap (although not every player is open to this, Mookie was very forthcoming about going to FA for top-dollar years in advance) and retaining homegrown players once they become FA. I definitely agree with the former, but of the 3 players discussed here, Mookie wasn't open to it; Bogaerts said he would have signed last yeat but 1) I take everything that comes from Boras and his players with a boulder-sized grain of salt, 2) the reported contract to sign him a year ago (5/150) would have been considered by many to be a huge overpay at the time, and 3) that's much closer to FA than I'm referring to as being a good deal; and we'll see with Devers but he sounds intent on getting top FA dollars as well. So, are homegrown players necessarily the right players to spend top-dollar on? As a fan I want to keep players consistent, it makes them easier to root for etc. In terms of building the best team, I'm not so sure. As soon as the Jose Ramirez contract came up, lots of people on board would have been on board with 5/150. However that would have been an overpay as we know now since its been more or less mentioned by many people that if the Sox offered 6/160 in the offseason it would have been done. If you like Bloom and the direction of the team where you just get rid of stars when they get expensive thats fine. But just know that in 2030-2031 when Marcelo Mayer gets to FA the team will probably low ball the crap out of him and around the merry go round we go.
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redsox04071318champs
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Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 9, 2022 12:52:43 GMT -5
What I keep coming back to is the reported shock and emotion from Bloom when finding out X had become a San Diego Padre.
Either a) he was acting for the reporters and he was lying the whole time about X being the priority or b) he was being genuine and he truly was shocked that X wasn't returning.
From what I gather about Bloom, he's honest, hard working, and forthright, so in my opinion the answer is B, he was being genuine.
I think B worries me even more than A.
It's hard to believe he could bo so out of touch that he thought giving Xander an extra year at 30 million would be a fair extension offer that Xander would give serious consideration to and no thought that Xander might actually find it insulting.
While it's hard to imagine the free agent market exploding to the extent it did it had to be obvious it would take about 200 million to have a real shot at securing him, but the offer was nowhere near that. Several teams were at 209 million before the Padres lost their freaking minds.
And he's shocked that Xander concluded that the Sox were no real option despite his overwhelming desire to go back. How the hell can he be shocked?
I am at the point where I seriously question his judgment, whether its reading the market or obtaining young talent in trades or knowing when to punt and get assets for the future when it's very clear where the team is headed. I truly think Bloom is out of touch with reality.
But when I think of ownership and the lip service they paid, usually thru their mouthpiece Sam Kennedy, I think it's the opposite. I believe they knew what Bloom was doing was doomed to failure but they wanted to create the impression of trying. Unlike Bloom, I think they were lying.
I think they have no stomach to spend 300 plus million on a player and they weren't even willing to go 200 million. At this point the Sox are just a part if the conglomerate that has only 1 true aim which is to make all the profit they can, whether their teams win or not.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 9, 2022 12:58:20 GMT -5
What I keep coming back to is the reported shock and emotion from Bloom when finding out X had become a San Diego Padre. Either a) he was acting for the reporters and he was lying the whole time about X being the priority or b) he was being genuine and he truly was shocked that X wasn't returning. From what I gather about Bloom, he's honest, hard working, and forthright, so in my opinion the answer is B, he was being genuine. I think B worries me even more than A.It's hard to believe he could bo so out of touch that he thought giving Xander an extra year at 30 million would be a fair extension offer that Xander would give serious consideration to and no thought that Xander might actually find it insulting. While it's hard to imagine the free agent market exploding to the extent it did it had to be obvious it would take about 200 million to have a real shot at securing him, but the offer was nowhere near that. Several teams were at 209 million before the Padres lost their freaking minds. And he's shocked that Xander concluded that the Sox were no real option despite his overwhelming desire to go back. How the hell can he be shocked? I am at the point where I seriously question his judgment, whether its reading the market or obtaining young talent in trades or knowing when to punt and get assets for the future when it's very clear where the team is headed. I truly think Bloom is out of touch with reality. But when I think of ownership and the lip service they paid, usually thru their mouthpiece Sam Kennedy, I think it's the opposite. I believe they knew what Bloom was doing was doomed to failure but they wanted to create the impression of trying. Unlike Bloom, I think they were lying. I think they have no stomach to spend 300 plus million on a player and they weren't even willing to go 200 million. At this point the Sox are just a part if the conglomerate that has only 1 true aim which is to make all the profit they can, whether their teams win or not. I'm right here with you, based off the reports of Bloom's response he'd deserve an emmy if he was acting. On the flipside if he was genuinely shocked that X decided to take a vastly superior offer and thought 6/160 had him signed then what is he thinking? He's a tad delusional if he thought those offers were getting it done dating back to last spring training. Which is scary if he actually thought that.
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Post by orcoaster on Dec 9, 2022 17:27:55 GMT -5
What I keep coming back to is the reported shock and emotion from Bloom when finding out X had become a San Diego Padre. Either a) he was acting for the reporters and he was lying the whole time about X being the priority or b) he was being genuine and he truly was shocked that X wasn't returning. From what I gather about Bloom, he's honest, hard working, and forthright, so in my opinion the answer is B, he was being genuine. I think B worries me even more than A. It's hard to believe he could bo so out of touch that he thought giving Xander an extra year at 30 million would be a fair extension offer that Xander would give serious consideration to and no thought that Xander might actually find it insulting. While it's hard to imagine the free agent market exploding to the extent it did it had to be obvious it would take about 200 million to have a real shot at securing him, but the offer was nowhere near that. Several teams were at 209 million before the Padres lost their freaking minds. And he's shocked that Xander concluded that the Sox were no real option despite his overwhelming desire to go back. How the hell can he be shocked? I am at the point where I seriously question his judgment, whether its reading the market or obtaining young talent in trades or knowing when to punt and get assets for the future when it's very clear where the team is headed. I truly think Bloom is out of touch with reality. But when I think of ownership and the lip service they paid, usually thru their mouthpiece Sam Kennedy, I think it's the opposite. I believe they knew what Bloom was doing was doomed to failure but they wanted to create the impression of trying. Unlike Bloom, I think they were lying. I think they have no stomach to spend 300 plus million on a player and they weren't even willing to go 200 million. At this point the Sox are just a part if the conglomerate that has only 1 true aim which is to make all the profit they can, whether their teams win or not. I completely agree. That Globe story was highly illuminating. I don't think for a second Bloom was acting. I think he completely believed he had Bogaerts signed. His reaction was stunned disbelief which gave way to the slow realization that he had been snookered by Scott Boras. I've always been a Bloom supporter, but after this I'm doubting his compentency for his position. This is all conjecture on my part, but here's what I think happened. Bloom got the job because he argued that the Red Sox needed to do diametrically opposed things simultaneously -- rebuild the farm system, restock the major league team, and compete for titles along the way. To do this, he argued, you need the smartest guy in the room, one who can find undervalued assets, develop talents others ignore, and most importantly, do it for pennies on the dollar. He got the job. Skip forward to last season when Bloom signed Trevor Story to a team-friendly deal. Bloom's patience paid off. Story was out of options and Bloom capitalized on a value others ignored. Bloom likened Story's lack of leverage to Bogaerts' desire to stay in Boston. Bloom believed he held a trump card over Bogaerts that he could exploit for a value contract. He would just have to wait him out. It might have worked except that the Padres had been left at the alter twice in two days despite being the high bidder both times. They were desperate. Bloom was cocky. Enter Boras. One thing everyone agrees about is that Bloom's front office does not leak. Ever. To wit: the Red Sox just signed two premium free agents earlier that day that took the entire industry by surprise. No one saw those coming. Yet, the Bogaerts negotiations that afternoon/evening were practically held on twitter. Who benefited from that? Scott Boras and his client. Boras had a jittery buyer on the hook. Other buyers were lining up. Boras knew that the Padres were itchy to drop a load and sensitive to being jilted yet again. What Boras needed was one of his notorious "mystery teams." Fortunately for Xander, he had better. He had the Boston Red Sox. I don't know about Xander, but I'll bet during that entire time of "heavy" negotiations, the Boras Corporation knew there was no chance Bogaerts was signing with the Red Sox. Boras knew then that Bogaerts would be a Padre. The only question was how rich was he going to be. When Bogaerts came calling, Bloom thought his patience had paid off. Bloom thought he had won. The ruse of Bogaerts about to sign with the Red Sox looked real enough -- particularly to the Padres -- that San Diego flinched. They swooped in fast and large so as to not leave Bogaerts the choice that Turner and Judge had. Boras wins again. I'm sure even he was surprised at the final number. So there's Bloom in the airport realizing that he just got suckered by someone who actually IS the smartest guy in the room, using one of the oldest tricks in the game. I think Bloom was absolutely genuine in wanting Bogaerts back. Bogaerts was his Plan A, B, and C. And Bloom was confident he had just signed him at a bargain rate because he held the hometown trump card that had already worked that week for the Yankees. Yes, he was staring at his phone because his team had no shortstop and no plans to get one. But more than that, he was catatonic because he just learned a lesson about hubris. It will be interesting to see if he can get back up off the mat from this. Regardless, he's not the GM I thought he was. He's not the GM he thought he was. It may be best to move on.
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Post by taiwansox on Dec 9, 2022 18:29:13 GMT -5
What I keep coming back to is the reported shock and emotion from Bloom when finding out X had become a San Diego Padre. Either a) he was acting for the reporters and he was lying the whole time about X being the priority or b) he was being genuine and he truly was shocked that X wasn't returning. From what I gather about Bloom, he's honest, hard working, and forthright, so in my opinion the answer is B, he was being genuine. I think B worries me even more than A. It's hard to believe he could bo so out of touch that he thought giving Xander an extra year at 30 million would be a fair extension offer that Xander would give serious consideration to and no thought that Xander might actually find it insulting. While it's hard to imagine the free agent market exploding to the extent it did it had to be obvious it would take about 200 million to have a real shot at securing him, but the offer was nowhere near that. Several teams were at 209 million before the Padres lost their freaking minds. And he's shocked that Xander concluded that the Sox were no real option despite his overwhelming desire to go back. How the hell can he be shocked? I am at the point where I seriously question his judgment, whether its reading the market or obtaining young talent in trades or knowing when to punt and get assets for the future when it's very clear where the team is headed. I truly think Bloom is out of touch with reality. But when I think of ownership and the lip service they paid, usually thru their mouthpiece Sam Kennedy, I think it's the opposite. I believe they knew what Bloom was doing was doomed to failure but they wanted to create the impression of trying. Unlike Bloom, I think they were lying. I think they have no stomach to spend 300 plus million on a player and they weren't even willing to go 200 million. At this point the Sox are just a part if the conglomerate that has only 1 true aim which is to make all the profit they can, whether their teams win or not. I completely agree. That Globe story was highly illuminating. I don't think for a second Bloom was acting. I think he completely believed he had Bogaerts signed. His reaction was stunned disbelief which gave way to the slow realization that he had been snookered by Scott Boras. I've always been a Bloom supporter, but after this I'm doubting his compentency for his position. This is all conjecture on my part, but here's what I think happened. Bloom got the job because he argued that the Red Sox needed to do diametrically opposed things simultaneously -- rebuild the farm system, restock the major league team, and compete for titles along the way. To do this, he argued, you need the smartest guy in the room, one who can find undervalued assets, develop talents others ignore, and most importantly, do it for pennies on the dollar. He got the job. Skip forward to last season when Bloom signed Trevor Story to a team-friendly deal. Bloom's patience paid off. Story was out of options and Bloom capitalized on a value others ignored. Bloom likened Story's lack of leverage to Bogaerts' desire to stay in Boston. Bloom believed he held a trump card over Bogaerts that he could exploit for a value contract. He would just have to wait him out. It might have worked except that the Padres had been left at the alter twice in two days despite being the high bidder both times. They were desperate. Bloom was cocky. Enter Boras. One thing everyone agrees about is that Bloom's front office does not leak. Ever. To wit: the Red Sox just signed two premium free agents earlier that day that took the entire industry by surprise. No one saw those coming. Yet, the Bogaerts negotiations that afternoon/evening were practically held on twitter. Who benefited from that? Scott Boras and his client. Boras had a jittery buyer on the hook. Other buyers were lining up. Boras knew that the Padres were itchy to drop a load and sensitive to being jilted yet again. What Boras needed was one of his notorious "mystery teams." Fortunately for Xander, he had better. He had the Boston Red Sox. I don't know about Xander, but I'll bet during that entire time of "heavy" negotiations, the Boras Corporation knew there was no chance Bogaerts was signing with the Red Sox. Boras knew then that Bogaerts would be a Padre. The only question was how rich was he going to be. When Bogaerts came calling, Bloom thought his patience had paid off. Bloom thought he had won. The ruse of Bogaerts about to sign with the Red Sox looked real enough -- particularly to the Padres -- that San Diego flinched. They swooped in fast and large so as to not leave Bogaerts the choice that Turner and Judge had. Boras wins again. I'm sure even he was surprised at the final number. So there's Bloom in the airport realizing that he just got suckered by someone who actually IS the smartest guy in the room, using one of the oldest tricks in the game. I think Bloom was absolutely genuine in wanting Bogaerts back. Bogaerts was his Plan A, B, and C. And Bloom was confident he had just signed him at a bargain rate because he held the hometown trump card that had already worked that week for the Yankees. Yes, he was staring at his phone because his team had no shortstop and no plans to get one. But more than that, he was catatonic because he just learned a lesson about hubris. It will be interesting to see if he can get back up off the mat from this. Regardless, he's not the GM I thought he was. He's not the GM he thought he was. It may be best to move on. Epstein had that kind of moment when he lost Contreras to the MFY. Obviously different circumstances, but it’s really about how he adjusts. He’s going to need to put a contender up this year so I’ll withhold judgment until we have a finished product. We should be able to upgrade at 1B, OF, DH and our entire pitching staff without much effort. SS we’ll lose like 3-4 wins, but there’s so much room to improve on the pitching and OF that we can come out ahead relative to 2022. And who knows maybe our farm finally produces something of value this year!
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 9, 2022 18:45:28 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this and the organization as a whole and I think one of the answers is the Carl Crawford and A-Gon deals. I'll throw price in there too but indulge me anyway.
Far as I can remember the two biggest position player contracts given since Henry took over were to Crawford and A-gon. Both 7 years for 20ish mil AAV which back when they signed were top of the market type of deals. At that time in the MLB world they were mega contracts or at least close. In the case of Crawford deal it was a giant car wreck. A-gon deal was bad but not as nearly as bad though.
Since then yes they've signed price to a 7 year deal but to my recollection they haven't gone past 6 for anyone else and correct me if I'm wrong. The price deal also ended poorly so I wonder if those 3 deals have just completely soured John Henry on offering anymore than a 6 year deal?
It would be an explanation as to why they only offered X 6 years. Maybe I'm just grasping at straws here I dunno. I do know that basically to date the Red Sox are the only big market team who hasn't given out a mega contract in the New era of mega deals in the mlb.
If for some reason Henry has basically mandated no contracts longer than 6 years, to me it's a giant flawed way to do things. First of all as we see in the 2022 MLB market if you want elite free agents you for sure have to go further than 6 years. Even more importantly if Henry is the driving factor, not everyone can hack it in Boston. We've seen plenty of guys we thought were talented and good baseball players flounder in this market. Hence why I think it's really important when you have guys like Mookie, Xander and now Devers who came up and lived up to their potential and then some you keep them!
Just my silly thoughts and ramblings and if you actually made it through the whole post credit it to you and I thank you. I just had to get the thoughts off my chest.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 9, 2022 18:58:18 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this and the organization as a whole and I think one of the answers is the Carl Crawford and A-Gon deals. I'll throw price in there too but indulge me anyway. Far as I can remember the two biggest position player contracts given since Henry took over were to Crawford and A-gon. Both 7 years for 20ish mil AAV which back when they signed were top of the market type of deals. At that time in the MLB world they were mega contracts or at least close. In the case of Crawford deal it was a giant car wreck. A-gon deal was bad but not as nearly as bad though. Since then yes they've signed price to a 7 year deal but to my recollection they haven't gone past 6 for anyone else and correct me if I'm wrong. The price deal also ended poorly so I wonder if those 3 deals have just completely soured John Henry on offering anymore than a 6 year deal? It would be an explanation as to why they only offered X 6 years. Maybe I'm just grasping at straws here I dunno. I do know that basically to date the Red Sox are the only big market team who hasn't given out a mega contract in the New era of mega deals in the mlb. If for some reason Henry has basically mandated no contracts longer than 6 years, to me it's a giant flawed way to do things. First of all as we see in the 2022 MLB market if you want elite free agents you for sure have to go further than 6 years. Even more importantly if Henry is the driving factor, not everyone can hack it in Boston. We've seen plenty of guys we thought were talented and good baseball players flounder in this market. Hence why I think it's really important when you have guys like Mookie, Xander and now Devers who came up and lived up to their potential and then some you keep them! Just my silly thoughts and ramblings and if you actually made it through the whole post credit it to you and I thank you. I just had to get the thoughts off my chest. Big market/big revenue teams have an advantage that other teams don’t: wheelbarrows of cash. That means they can over pay for stars, which is a risk, but also has potential for tremendous rewards, especially in the first three to five years in players who are signed in the long contract starting in their age 28-30 seasons. So if you hit, it’s often worth it - especially if you have a couple or three other stars and a few cheap average to above average or better homegrown and journeyman players - even if the end of the deal is an overpay. But when you miss, ugh. Still, a big revenue team that passes on these because of risk aversion is really wasting their biggest market advantage.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 9, 2022 18:59:34 GMT -5
Here is my problem with blaming ownership. They have had the same mandate as they have had since they bought to team which is…
They are hands off and want the gm to stay under the luxury tax, and if they want to sign someone to go over they must be sold on the team having a legit chance to win the WS to do so.
All evidence points to that not having changed. People act like we are only spending 120 million a a year now.
The problem is Blooms allocations of the payroll up to the luxury tax has been atrocious
Like I said earlier, he dismantled the 2018 team with about nothing to show for it, just an awful allocation and return of assets by him
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 9, 2022 19:13:38 GMT -5
Here is my problem with blaming ownership. They have had the same mandate as they have had since they bought to team which is… They are hands off and want the gm to stay under the luxury tax, and if they want to sign someone to go over they must be sold on the team having a legit chance to win the WS to do so. All evidence points to that not having changed. People act like we are only spending 120 million a a year now. The problem is Blooms allocations of the payroll up to the luxury tax has been atrocious Like I said earlier, he dismantled the 2018 team with about nothing to show for it, just an awful allocation and return of assets by him Point 1 and point 2 have they been? I don't think they're hands off. The point about Bloom and the payroll, he got hampered with an aging team and a bloated payroll. The past few years in my eyes is not blooms fault for any payroll mismanagement. That's frankly on Dombrowski. You have a point in regards to the 2018 team and specifically the elite players on that team and the minimal return though. That's all coming from someone who is far from a Bloom defender at least anymore but a lot of you're points are blaming him for things that quite frankly weren't his fault.
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Post by costpet on Dec 9, 2022 19:26:22 GMT -5
Then he'd better step up for Devers. 10/30 or 8/240. Something like that. And he'd better do it before Opening Day, or Devers will wait it out and be a free agent like his buddy X. The whole world is bashing the Sox for their stupidity and I guarantee you the Sox notice. Not a good feeling. So, maybe they figure if they can sign Devers, the fans will calm down. Otherwise, who wants to see a last place team for the foreseeable future?
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Post by greenmonster on Dec 9, 2022 19:42:00 GMT -5
John Henry must have been heavily invested in Crypto currency
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 9, 2022 21:23:34 GMT -5
Then he'd better step up for Devers. 10/30 or 8/240. Something like that. And he'd better do it before Opening Day, or Devers will wait it out and be a free agent like his buddy X. The whole world is bashing the Sox for their stupidity and I guarantee you the Sox notice. Not a good feeling. So, maybe they figure if they can sign Devers, the fans will calm down. Otherwise, who wants to see a last place team for the foreseeable future? Devers is gone after next year. This management isn't paying him 300 million. The only thing that is for sure is that Boston is 100% not moving him this offseason. I hope that JD and Nate go to San Diego and try to win another ring. I'm not looking forward to this season. It just honestly seems like its going to be more of last year. A watered-down roster with no real immediate plan. Kind of sucks. But the pen will at least be good. Definitely could see them try to trade for Devers eventual replacement, though.
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Post by notstarboard on Dec 9, 2022 22:15:18 GMT -5
What I keep coming back to is the reported shock and emotion from Bloom when finding out X had become a San Diego Padre. Either a) he was acting for the reporters and he was lying the whole time about X being the priority or b) he was being genuine and he truly was shocked that X wasn't returning. From what I gather about Bloom, he's honest, hard working, and forthright, so in my opinion the answer is B, he was being genuine. I think B worries me even more than A. It's hard to believe he could bo so out of touch that he thought giving Xander an extra year at 30 million would be a fair extension offer that Xander would give serious consideration to and no thought that Xander might actually find it insulting. While it's hard to imagine the free agent market exploding to the extent it did it had to be obvious it would take about 200 million to have a real shot at securing him, but the offer was nowhere near that. Several teams were at 209 million before the Padres lost their freaking minds. And he's shocked that Xander concluded that the Sox were no real option despite his overwhelming desire to go back. How the hell can he be shocked? I am at the point where I seriously question his judgment, whether its reading the market or obtaining young talent in trades or knowing when to punt and get assets for the future when it's very clear where the team is headed. I truly think Bloom is out of touch with reality. But when I think of ownership and the lip service they paid, usually thru their mouthpiece Sam Kennedy, I think it's the opposite. I believe they knew what Bloom was doing was doomed to failure but they wanted to create the impression of trying. Unlike Bloom, I think they were lying. I think they have no stomach to spend 300 plus million on a player and they weren't even willing to go 200 million. At this point the Sox are just a part if the conglomerate that has only 1 true aim which is to make all the profit they can, whether their teams win or not. I completely agree. That Globe story was highly illuminating. I don't think for a second Bloom was acting. I think he completely believed he had Bogaerts signed. His reaction was stunned disbelief which gave way to the slow realization that he had been snookered by Scott Boras. I've always been a Bloom supporter, but after this I'm doubting his compentency for his position. This is all conjecture on my part, but here's what I think happened. Bloom got the job because he argued that the Red Sox needed to do diametrically opposed things simultaneously -- rebuild the farm system, restock the major league team, and compete for titles along the way. To do this, he argued, you need the smartest guy in the room, one who can find undervalued assets, develop talents others ignore, and most importantly, do it for pennies on the dollar. He got the job. Skip forward to last season when Bloom signed Trevor Story to a team-friendly deal. Bloom's patience paid off. Story was out of options and Bloom capitalized on a value others ignored. Bloom likened Story's lack of leverage to Bogaerts' desire to stay in Boston. Bloom believed he held a trump card over Bogaerts that he could exploit for a value contract. He would just have to wait him out. It might have worked except that the Padres had been left at the alter twice in two days despite being the high bidder both times. They were desperate. Bloom was cocky. Enter Boras. One thing everyone agrees about is that Bloom's front office does not leak. Ever. To wit: the Red Sox just signed two premium free agents earlier that day that took the entire industry by surprise. No one saw those coming. Yet, the Bogaerts negotiations that afternoon/evening were practically held on twitter. Who benefited from that? Scott Boras and his client. Boras had a jittery buyer on the hook. Other buyers were lining up. Boras knew that the Padres were itchy to drop a load and sensitive to being jilted yet again. What Boras needed was one of his notorious "mystery teams." Fortunately for Xander, he had better. He had the Boston Red Sox. I don't know about Xander, but I'll bet during that entire time of "heavy" negotiations, the Boras Corporation knew there was no chance Bogaerts was signing with the Red Sox. Boras knew then that Bogaerts would be a Padre. The only question was how rich was he going to be. When Bogaerts came calling, Bloom thought his patience had paid off. Bloom thought he had won. The ruse of Bogaerts about to sign with the Red Sox looked real enough -- particularly to the Padres -- that San Diego flinched. They swooped in fast and large so as to not leave Bogaerts the choice that Turner and Judge had. Boras wins again. I'm sure even he was surprised at the final number. So there's Bloom in the airport realizing that he just got suckered by someone who actually IS the smartest guy in the room, using one of the oldest tricks in the game. I think Bloom was absolutely genuine in wanting Bogaerts back. Bogaerts was his Plan A, B, and C. And Bloom was confident he had just signed him at a bargain rate because he held the hometown trump card that had already worked that week for the Yankees. Yes, he was staring at his phone because his team had no shortstop and no plans to get one. But more than that, he was catatonic because he just learned a lesson about hubris. It will be interesting to see if he can get back up off the mat from this. Regardless, he's not the GM I thought he was. He's not the GM he thought he was. It may be best to move on. I'm sorry but this sounds incredibly contrived
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Post by xdmo on Dec 9, 2022 22:33:58 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this and the organization as a whole and I think one of the answers is the Carl Crawford and A-Gon deals. I'll throw price in there too but indulge me anyway. Far as I can remember the two biggest position player contracts given since Henry took over were to Crawford and A-gon. Both 7 years for 20ish mil AAV which back when they signed were top of the market type of deals. At that time in the MLB world they were mega contracts or at least close. In the case of Crawford deal it was a giant car wreck. A-gon deal was bad but not as nearly as bad though. Since then yes they've signed price to a 7 year deal but to my recollection they haven't gone past 6 for anyone else and correct me if I'm wrong. The price deal also ended poorly so I wonder if those 3 deals have just completely soured John Henry on offering anymore than a 6 year deal? It would be an explanation as to why they only offered X 6 years. Maybe I'm just grasping at straws here I dunno. I do know that basically to date the Red Sox are the only big market team who hasn't given out a mega contract in the New era of mega deals in the mlb. If for some reason Henry has basically mandated no contracts longer than 6 years, to me it's a giant flawed way to do things. First of all as we see in the 2022 MLB market if you want elite free agents you for sure have to go further than 6 years. Even more importantly if Henry is the driving factor, not everyone can hack it in Boston. We've seen plenty of guys we thought were talented and good baseball players flounder in this market. Hence why I think it's really important when you have guys like Mookie, Xander and now Devers who came up and lived up to their potential and then some you keep them! Just my silly thoughts and ramblings and if you actually made it through the whole post credit it to you and I thank you. I just had to get the thoughts off my chest. Henry doesn't seem to want to go past 7 or 8 years maximum. That's why pitcher's have been typically been paid in Boston. They generally get that many years because they're volatile. Chris Sale David Price Position players, especially young cornerstone players get the 10 year plus deals. The Chris Sale contract was a bad contract, but we're basically lucky he was even willing to pay that. The Sox should have traded for Matt Olson, since he was willing to take the perfect John Henry special with his 7 year deal.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 9, 2022 22:38:51 GMT -5
Then he'd better step up for Devers. 10/30 or 8/240. Something like that. And he'd better do it before Opening Day, or Devers will wait it out and be a free agent like his buddy X. The whole world is bashing the Sox for their stupidity and I guarantee you the Sox notice. Not a good feeling. So, maybe they figure if they can sign Devers, the fans will calm down. Otherwise, who wants to see a last place team for the foreseeable future? ***meant to quote ematz He had Betts, bogaerts, Devers, and benintendi probably 3 hall of famers and an all star that were all 27 or younger. His mandate was to get under the luxury tax. It wouldn’t have been better to attach prospects to get rid of price, and trade JD who was very tradeable at the time? The. Extend Betts? The Benny trade was asinine at the time, trading him when is value was at an all time low after a lost half season. There was a clear route where Betts and Devers were here the next 11 years and Benny and bogaerts left in this FA. Which would have been a tough but fair trade off. Then you have two studs to build around for a while with say around $150 mil in payroll left to spend. Yeah 25 would be with sale, okay so bloom would have 125 left to spend as he saw fit. Instead we are paying what? $43 million a year for two old relievers and an outfielder who has never played in the mlb. That’s money Bloom spent He’s allowed to go to the luxury tax…. He just sucks at allocation his assets, which is an elaborate way of saying he really sucks as a gm
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Post by keninten on Dec 9, 2022 22:45:13 GMT -5
This has got to be the worst thread ever.
Could you imagine if AJ Preller was Steve Cohen`s GM.
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Post by xdmo on Dec 9, 2022 22:46:33 GMT -5
This has got to be the worst thread ever. Could you imagine if AJ Preller was Steve Cohen`s GM. It would be the best ride MLB has ever seen.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Dec 10, 2022 2:10:04 GMT -5
Like others here, I agree that it ultimately comes down to our farm not producing anyone of significance since Devers. I do not care who's fault it is, because it doesn't matter. All that matters is that it happened. And the reason that is the biggest issue is because that is the only way John Henry builds teams. He does not like the free agent market. He has no issue spending money, he has proven that for 2 decades now. What he does have an issue is building a team around highly paid free agents because he doesn't think there is a ton of value there. And I don't think Red Sox fans do themselves any favors by doing mental gymnastics trying to convince themselves that actually this time it will be different That this time he will give the money to our guy. I'm sorry but until Henry/FSG no longer own the Red Sox, I refuse to believe they will be players in the high end free agent market, refuse to believe he will hand out top dollar to even his home grown players. The MO under Henry is the 'player development machine'. That is their goal - continue churning out players that way you can let those guys walk away and you keep rolling. Build from the inside out, but never the outside in. When you execute on that strategy it works incredibly well. When you don't you get situations like we are in now.
I realize no one wants to hear this, but I sincerely do not believe they are going to retain Devers. They traded Nomar, let Pedro walk, let Damon walk, traded away Manny, let Beltre walk, let Ellsbury walk, traded away Lester, traded away Mookie, and now let Xander Bogaerts walk. I don't know how many times we have to see this before it sinks in. The only way they keep their guys is if they sign team friendly deals - Pedroia, Youk, Ortiz, Lester's first extension, Adrian Gonzalez, Bogaerts extension. But every indication is that Devers wants top dollar, and he will be the 2nd best position player on the market next year behind Ohtani, so he is certain to get it. And John Henry does not like paying top dollar. He likes bargains.
I know what everyone is going to say. For every guy that I listed above, there will be some excuse - Nomar and Pedro were trending down, Ellsbury wasn't worth it, they botched the negotiations with Lester and Xander, Mookie only signed because of COVID. At the end of the day though money talks, and if Henry wanted any of those guys to stay, all he had to do was write a check. And he chose not to. And I think he makes the same choice with Devers.
I would love to be proven wrong. Maybe they make an exception because the outlook is improved with Bello, Casas, Mayer, Rafaella, etc. But I will have to see it to believe it.
Eventually they will right the ship though. Casas will be a force, Mayer a stud SS, Rafaella a gold glove CF. They will round out that team with some solid veterans and make a run at a WS. But that is still a few years away.
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Post by crossedsabres8 on Dec 10, 2022 2:20:37 GMT -5
What I keep coming back to is the reported shock and emotion from Bloom when finding out X had become a San Diego Padre. Either a) he was acting for the reporters and he was lying the whole time about X being the priority or b) he was being genuine and he truly was shocked that X wasn't returning. From what I gather about Bloom, he's honest, hard working, and forthright, so in my opinion the answer is B, he was being genuine. I think B worries me even more than A. There are clearly more than 2 options. It's a little bit shocking that everyone keeps eating up everything put out by these twitter journalists when there is so much conflicting information. Cotillo just had a thing saying Bloom was pretty sure as early as Tuesday Bogaerts wasn't coming back. That doesn't really line up with this narrative.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Dec 10, 2022 4:06:46 GMT -5
This has got to be the worst thread ever. Could you imagine if AJ Preller was Steve Cohen`s GM. It has a lot of competition. Boston fans are tough. I'd leave my wife and daughters unattended with Nick Cannon before I relive the past 24-48 hours with some Sox fans. And I say that as one. Anything but the best it automatically the worst.
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Post by wessoxfan on Dec 10, 2022 6:41:05 GMT -5
I’ve read these forums off and on for a long time, but this thread caused me to want to register. My view is something that I haven’t seen discussed yet. Namely, that the cause of the Red Sox current problems is largely the result of the off-season after they won the World Series in 2018 rather than what they did in order to put together that team. The 2018 Red Sox was the best team that I remember as a baseball fan (I remember the 1998 Yankees, but was too young to understand how great they were). That team was full of stars, many of whom were young and homegrown.
DD made a lot of moves that altered the future of the team, trading prospects for stars and missing pieces during that run. Some felt steep and others fair. Although some prospects never reached their potential (Espinoza and even Moncada) and he might have received on balance good value, those trades left the club with a diminished pool of prospects to help the big club. Added to this is a few subpar years of drafting and development. But the Red Sox still had their young stars.
In the 2018 offseason, the team had some long-term contracts (Price) signed by DD that didn’t look like great value going forward, but many of the young players (Devers, Benintendi) still had some cheap years ahead. With proper management, the team should have been able to sign some of these players to long-term contracts. Did that happen? No. Instead, the front office tried to bring the 2018 team back, resigning Evolidi and Pearce and giving Sale his extension. That was a massive outlay that put the team over the luxury tax threshold. Without any low-cost talent, this set the groundwork for trading Betts and the inability to resign Boegarts.
Given how great that 2018 team was, I think most people were willing to give the team some slack the next year (which I think they did given the immediate reaction to the 2019 record). If the team had used 2019 to reset the tax threshold, not making the resignings mentioned above, maybe even trading a few of the secondary pieces, I think fans would have accepted it. We did before. The 2004 team had many free agents, including Pedro, but rather than extend them all, Theo let most walk. As much as I disliked that Pedro would pitch for someone else, I knew that he wasn’t the same Pedro of 1999 and 2000 and understood the decision. The 2005 team still had its stars (Manny, Damon, Schilling, Foulke, and Papi) and I’m not sure that the team would have won the series in 2007 if they tried to keep the 2004 team together. It's too bad that the same thing didn't happen to the 2018 team.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 10, 2022 9:19:31 GMT -5
What I keep coming back to is the reported shock and emotion from Bloom when finding out X had become a San Diego Padre. Either a) he was acting for the reporters and he was lying the whole time about X being the priority or b) he was being genuine and he truly was shocked that X wasn't returning. From what I gather about Bloom, he's honest, hard working, and forthright, so in my opinion the answer is B, he was being genuine. I think B worries me even more than A. It's hard to believe he could bo so out of touch that he thought giving Xander an extra year at 30 million would be a fair extension offer that Xander would give serious consideration to and no thought that Xander might actually find it insulting. While it's hard to imagine the free agent market exploding to the extent it did it had to be obvious it would take about 200 million to have a real shot at securing him, but the offer was nowhere near that. Several teams were at 209 million before the Padres lost their freaking minds. And he's shocked that Xander concluded that the Sox were no real option despite his overwhelming desire to go back. How the hell can he be shocked? I am at the point where I seriously question his judgment, whether its reading the market or obtaining young talent in trades or knowing when to punt and get assets for the future when it's very clear where the team is headed. I truly think Bloom is out of touch with reality. But when I think of ownership and the lip service they paid, usually thru their mouthpiece Sam Kennedy, I think it's the opposite. I believe they knew what Bloom was doing was doomed to failure but they wanted to create the impression of trying. Unlike Bloom, I think they were lying. I think they have no stomach to spend 300 plus million on a player and they weren't even willing to go 200 million. At this point the Sox are just a part if the conglomerate that has only 1 true aim which is to make all the profit they can, whether their teams win or not. I completely agree. That Globe story was highly illuminating. I don't think for a second Bloom was acting. I think he completely believed he had Bogaerts signed. His reaction was stunned disbelief which gave way to the slow realization that he had been snookered by Scott Boras. I've always been a Bloom supporter, but after this I'm doubting his compentency for his position. This is all conjecture on my part, but here's what I think happened. Bloom got the job because he argued that the Red Sox needed to do diametrically opposed things simultaneously -- rebuild the farm system, restock the major league team, and compete for titles along the way. To do this, he argued, you need the smartest guy in the room, one who can find undervalued assets, develop talents others ignore, and most importantly, do it for pennies on the dollar. He got the job. Skip forward to last season when Bloom signed Trevor Story to a team-friendly deal. Bloom's patience paid off. Story was out of options and Bloom capitalized on a value others ignored. Bloom likened Story's lack of leverage to Bogaerts' desire to stay in Boston. Bloom believed he held a trump card over Bogaerts that he could exploit for a value contract. He would just have to wait him out. It might have worked except that the Padres had been left at the alter twice in two days despite being the high bidder both times. They were desperate. Bloom was cocky. Enter Boras. One thing everyone agrees about is that Bloom's front office does not leak. Ever. To wit: the Red Sox just signed two premium free agents earlier that day that took the entire industry by surprise. No one saw those coming. Yet, the Bogaerts negotiations that afternoon/evening were practically held on twitter. Who benefited from that? Scott Boras and his client. Boras had a jittery buyer on the hook. Other buyers were lining up. Boras knew that the Padres were itchy to drop a load and sensitive to being jilted yet again. What Boras needed was one of his notorious "mystery teams." Fortunately for Xander, he had better. He had the Boston Red Sox. I don't know about Xander, but I'll bet during that entire time of "heavy" negotiations, the Boras Corporation knew there was no chance Bogaerts was signing with the Red Sox. Boras knew then that Bogaerts would be a Padre. The only question was how rich was he going to be. When Bogaerts came calling, Bloom thought his patience had paid off. Bloom thought he had won. The ruse of Bogaerts about to sign with the Red Sox looked real enough -- particularly to the Padres -- that San Diego flinched. They swooped in fast and large so as to not leave Bogaerts the choice that Turner and Judge had. Boras wins again. I'm sure even he was surprised at the final number. So there's Bloom in the airport realizing that he just got suckered by someone who actually IS the smartest guy in the room, using one of the oldest tricks in the game. I think Bloom was absolutely genuine in wanting Bogaerts back. Bogaerts was his Plan A, B, and C. And Bloom was confident he had just signed him at a bargain rate because he held the hometown trump card that had already worked that week for the Yankees. Yes, he was staring at his phone because his team had no shortstop and no plans to get one. But more than that, he was catatonic because he just learned a lesson about hubris. It will be interesting to see if he can get back up off the mat from this. Regardless, he's not the GM I thought he was. He's not the GM he thought he was. It may be best to move on. I'll liken him to Brad Stevens, the coach. Not the GM, who we all have seen is a savant at his job. Brad was really good at coaching up the Brad Wannamakers and Jae Crowders of the world but give him a superstar, and he was absolutely lost. I don't think Bloom can relate to stars in the league which is why he gave the infamous quote about what makes him lose sleep at night. Bloom himself is not a bad GM. Not at all. But there are levels to this and some people are better suited for different markets. Put Bloom in a place like Milwaukee, Washington, Baltimore etc...he'll excel. I truly believe that. But he's not built for a big market and the way these negotiations a few days ago with Xander showed that. I don't think Devers has any interest in coming back after next year and I don't think ownership wants him at the contract he'll require. Just a really sad situation all around.
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Post by dcb26 on Dec 10, 2022 10:24:23 GMT -5
I’ve read these forums off and on for a long time, but this thread caused me to want to register. My view is something that I haven’t seen discussed yet. Namely, that the cause of the Red Sox current problems is largely the result of the off-season after they won the World Series in 2018 Couldn't agree more. Choosing to extend Sale and Eovaldi, and making some other minor moves, rather than extending the homegrown core then, or clearing the space to do so in the future, put the Sox on this current path. And if Sale had been healthy, things might have gone very differently, but oh well.
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