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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 10, 2022 10:52:45 GMT -5
All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom?
Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves
Either way a spade is a spade, Bloom sucks and I don’t feel a need to defend him, same as the other GMs that have come and gone.
Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people
This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023
Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Dec 10, 2022 11:08:15 GMT -5
All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom? Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves Either way a spade is a spade, Bloom sucks and I don’t feel a need to defend him, same as the other GMs that have come and gone. Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023 Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen This is legitimately one of the most inaccurate posts I've ever seen on this thread.
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Post by rminns10 on Dec 10, 2022 11:12:44 GMT -5
In my opinion it all went wrong when we got the return for Mookie, not getting at least one really good player is a huge miss.
I'll actually defend not giving out 10+ year contracts to guys pushing 30 years old or not giving long term contracts to aging pitchers, but with that being said if thats your org philosophy than you better copy the Braves model of taking care of your homegrown guys way before the bill is due.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 10, 2022 11:14:53 GMT -5
All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom? Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves Either way a spade is a spade, Bloom sucks and I don’t feel a need to defend him, same as the other GMs that have come and gone. Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023 Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen Eh, the Bloom stuff is more or less Cherrington Redux. I don't think the guy sucks but I think he's over his head in Boston. I would welcome Theo back with open arms. Hes defaulting to what he knows and what he knows is value. But if attendance and ratings start to drop he's gone. Its still a business and I think ownership does want to spend in the right situations but also values clean books. What was the main objective during the Theo era? It wasn't necessarily spending for a title, but the main objective that kept popping up was to get rid of the Manny contract. The thing with Lester that Lucchino fell on the sword for. Mookie Betts. Xander Boegarts. Not attempting to keep Beltre. Papi going year to year on deals. The times where they went long term on deals was with Sale, Price, Hanley, Crawford, and Panda cost those GMs their jobs. Why? Big market teams can afford to make mistakes. Ownership does not like risk. As much as I would love to continue dumping on Bloom, there's just way too much of a sample size to absolve ownership on this one. Those players that they spent on weren't homegrown talent. They wanted everyone to take the Pedroia deal. None of those players were a sure thing. Panda was a fat bastard, Crawford and Price went for the money and instantly hated the market, plus spending on speed is not ideal long term. Hanley was....yeah, Hanley, and they should have known better since he actually was homegrown and everyone knew the risk with Sale. Everyone... not smart spending when they did.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 10, 2022 11:15:31 GMT -5
All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom? Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves Either way a spade is a spade, Bloom sucks and I don’t feel a need to defend him, same as the other GMs that have come and gone. Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023 Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen This is legitimately one of the most inaccurate posts I've ever seen on this thread. Yet you offer no counterpoints… an empty post
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 10, 2022 11:30:17 GMT -5
All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom? Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves Either way a spade is a spade, Bloom sucks and I don’t feel a need to defend him, same as the other GMs that have come and gone. Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023 Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen Eh, the Bloom stuff is more or less Cherrington Redux. I don't think the guy sucks but I think he's over his head in Boston. I would welcome Theo back with open arms. Hes defaulting to what he knows and what he knows is value. But if attendance and ratings start to drop he's gone. Its still a business and I think ownership does want to spend in the right situations but also values clean books. What was the main objective during the Theo era? It wasn't necessarily spending for a title, but the main objective that kept popping up was to get rid of the Manny contract. The thing with Lester that Lucchino fell on the sword for. Mookie Betts. Xander Boegarts. Not attempting to keep Beltre. Papi going year to year on deals. The times where they went long term on deals was with Sale, Price, Hanley, Crawford, and Panda cost those GMs their jobs. Why? Big market teams can afford to make mistakes. Ownership does not like risk. As much as I would love to continue dumping on Bloom, there's just way too much of a sample size to absolve ownership on this one. Those players that they spent on weren't homegrown talent. They wanted everyone to take the Pedroia deal. None of those players were a sure thing. Panda was a fat bastard, Crawford and Price went for the money and instantly hated the market, plus spending on speed is not ideal long term. Hanley was....yeah, Hanley, and they should have known better since he actually was homegrown and everyone knew the risk with Sale. Everyone... not smart spending when they did. But ownerships sample size since they bought the team (outside the Covid year) have always been top 6 in payroll, mostly top 4 and were 1 two years in a row. So ownership is just always accidentally in the top 5 payroll despite their agenda? It’s been widely known for years, they don’t like going over the luxury tax unless given a valid and good reason to. Again send me Proof this isn’t the case?
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 10, 2022 11:36:21 GMT -5
Eh, the Bloom stuff is more or less Cherrington Redux. I don't think the guy sucks but I think he's over his head in Boston. I would welcome Theo back with open arms. Hes defaulting to what he knows and what he knows is value. But if attendance and ratings start to drop he's gone. Its still a business and I think ownership does want to spend in the right situations but also values clean books. What was the main objective during the Theo era? It wasn't necessarily spending for a title, but the main objective that kept popping up was to get rid of the Manny contract. The thing with Lester that Lucchino fell on the sword for. Mookie Betts. Xander Boegarts. Not attempting to keep Beltre. Papi going year to year on deals. The times where they went long term on deals was with Sale, Price, Hanley, Crawford, and Panda cost those GMs their jobs. Why? Big market teams can afford to make mistakes. Ownership does not like risk. As much as I would love to continue dumping on Bloom, there's just way too much of a sample size to absolve ownership on this one. Those players that they spent on weren't homegrown talent. They wanted everyone to take the Pedroia deal. None of those players were a sure thing. Panda was a fat bastard, Crawford and Price went for the money and instantly hated the market, plus spending on speed is not ideal long term. Hanley was....yeah, Hanley, and they should have known better since he actually was homegrown and everyone knew the risk with Sale. Everyone... not smart spending when they did. But ownerships sample size since they bought the team (outside the Covid year) have always been top 6 in payroll, mostly top 4 and were 1 two years in a row. So ownership is just always accidentally in the top 5 payroll despite their agenda? It’s been widely known for years, they don’t like going over the luxury tax unless given a valid and good reason to. Again send me Proof this isn’t the case? They don't like term. They could care less about pillow contracts. So you just keep signing pillow contracts with different players and kick the can down the road. You can sit here and carry water for JWH, and that's cool but Bloom was in college when they bought the team. Kind of hard to throw this all on him. Ownership has to take a lot of the blame. Unless, of course, you're going to blame Theo, Cherrington, and Dombrowski too. Whats the one constant? Speaking of Theo when it came time to give him more power/money, what ended up happening? Twice!! They got him back the first time but then let him go a few years later and chose to stay the course with Larry. Pay other players but not your own. If that doesn't work give the good ole one or two year deal at an inflated AAV. Yeah, you're spending, but does it matter if the result is shit?
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 10, 2022 11:48:39 GMT -5
But ownerships sample size since they bought the team (outside the Covid year) have always been top 6 in payroll, mostly top 4 and were 1 two years in a row. So ownership is just always accidentally in the top 5 payroll despite their agenda? It’s been widely known for years, they don’t like going over the luxury tax unless given a valid and good reason to. Again send me Proof this isn’t the case? They don't like term. They could care less about pillow contracts. So you just keep signing pillow contracts with different players and kick the can down the road. You can sit here and carry water for JWH, and that's cool but Bloom was in college when they bought the team. Kind of hard to throw this all on him. Ownership has to take a lot of the blame. Unless, of course, you're going to blame Theo, Cherrington, and Dombrowski too. Whats the one constant? 😂 yeah I’m sure upset about the 4 World Series ownership and the prior gms bought year since 03 and prior to Bloom Crawford, Sale, rentaria, Beckett, lackey, A-Gon, Story, Price, Castillo, JD Drew, Lugo, Sandova, Pedroia, bogaerts extension (probably missing some) Yeah they sure sign nobody, all but story were prior GMs. We have the most WS this millennium, and consistently top 4 in payroll, but sure let’s blame ownership and not the incompetent gm
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 10, 2022 11:51:42 GMT -5
They don't like term. They could care less about pillow contracts. So you just keep signing pillow contracts with different players and kick the can down the road. You can sit here and carry water for JWH, and that's cool but Bloom was in college when they bought the team. Kind of hard to throw this all on him. Ownership has to take a lot of the blame. Unless, of course, you're going to blame Theo, Cherrington, and Dombrowski too. Whats the one constant? 😂 yeah I’m sure upset about the 4 World Series ownership and the prior gms bought year since 03 and prior to Bloom Crawford, Sale, rentaria, Beckett, lackey, A-Gon, Story, Price, Castillo, JD Drew, Lugo, Sandova, Pedroia, bogaerts extension (probably missing some) Yeah they sure sign nobody, all but story were prior GMs. We have the most WS this millennium, and consistently top 4 in payroll, but sure let’s blame ownership and not the incompetent gm Bloom gets blame. What are you not understanding? But judging by your posts, I'd be shocked if you weren't John Henrys admin. Sure ownership is completely blameless for everything though. Sure. You also probably don't want to hang your argument on Pedroia and Xander as those were very team friendly extensions. By the way, where does Xander play now? And yes, you're honestly making me defend Bloom because of how far you're willing to go to not blame ownership for any of this. I've probably been Blooms biggest critic on this board but throwing everything on him is laughable.
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Post by notstarboard on Dec 10, 2022 11:51:59 GMT -5
This is legitimately one of the most inaccurate posts I've ever seen on this thread. Yet you offer no counterpoints… an empty post All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom?
Make a specific criticism and I'd be happy to. I have agreed with most of what he's done.
Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves
Bloom is an extremely good interviewer. He is articulate, takes accountability, and has a positive attitude.
Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people
The farm was ranked dead last when Bloom took over and as far as I can tell it's above average now. There was a ton of dead money & bad contracts on the books when Bloom took over and aside from Sale, all of that has been cleared: Price, Pedroia, Sandoval, Castillo, etc. He so far hasn't made any terrible signings of his own to add to this list. The closest would be Barnes' deal, which is pretty minor on the grand scheme of things. He could even redeem that if he pitches like he did down the stretch last year.
Last year's last place team was much more the result of catastrophic injury luck and the lack of farm & payroll flexibility from the DD years than from any moves Bloom made. The only move that backfired was bringing back JBJ. Most of the guys that came in were actually well worth the cash: Wacha, Hill, Schreiber, Refsnyder, etc.
The Sox are still feeling the effects of the state of the farm when DD left. They haven't developed a regular since Devers, and he's been in the league for five years. It's extremely difficult to stay competitive without young, controllable talent providing surplus value, even for teams with big budgets. The farm does seem poised to start bearing fruit, but that hasn't been the case for Bloom's entire tenure thus far.
Finally, this is the first offseason he's really had a lot of money to spend, and he still has about $40 million to go before the tax line. This year is really the turning point for me where it will finally feel a lot more like Bloom's team than Dombrowski's. Criticizing Bloom for 2020-2022 feels silly, though, when all he did was do his best with the corpse of DD's organization. And, between the last place finishes, we were somehow two games from the WS. That's as much good luck as 2022 was bad luck, but still, some lemonade has clearly been made here.
This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023
What makes you think this?
Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen
I have no doubt that Chaim is free to spend up to the luxury tax. I also have no doubt that any long term, big money deals still need ownership's blessing regardless of luxury tax status.
Edits
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 10, 2022 11:59:35 GMT -5
😂 yeah I’m sure upset about the 4 World Series ownership and the prior gms bought year since 03 and prior to Bloom Crawford, Sale, rentaria, Beckett, lackey, A-Gon, Story, Price, Castillo, JD Drew, Lugo, Sandova, Pedroia, bogaerts extension (probably missing some) Yeah they sure sign nobody, all but story were prior GMs. We have the most WS this millennium, and consistently top 4 in payroll, but sure let’s blame ownership and not the incompetent gm Bloom gets blame. What are you not understanding? But judging by your posts, I'd be shocked if you weren't John Henrys admin. Sure ownership is completely blameless for everything though. Sure. You also probably don't want to hang your argument on Pedroia and Xander as those were very team friendly extensions. By the way, where does Xander play now? My argument is ownership is operating as they always have which has been widely successful compared to Sox prior owners or relative to other owners since they bought the team. Ownerships failures have been gm dumping which is why we are so hot and cold season to season Bloom to me is to blame a lot for how the roster is constructed now. I don’t think ownership told him that they would like him to dismantle The whole record breaking 2018 team in a matter of 3-4 years Blooms most glaring failures have been pretty much been everything from November 2021 through now. It’s actually been an atrocious year for him
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Post by manfred on Dec 10, 2022 12:00:43 GMT -5
Yet you offer no counterpoints… an empty post All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom?
Make a specific criticism and I'd be happy to. I have agreed with most of what he's done.
Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves
Bloom is an extremely good interviewer. He is articulate, takes accountability, and has a positive attitude.
Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people
The farm was ranked dead last when Bloom took over and as far as I can tell it's above average now. There was a ton of dead money & bad contracts on the books when Bloom took over and aside from Sale, all of that has been cleared: Price, Pedroia, Sandoval, Castillo, etc. He so far hasn't made any terrible signings of his own to add to this list. The closest would be Barnes' deal, which is pretty minor on the grand scheme of things. He could even redeem that if he pitches like he did down the stretch last year.
This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023
What makes you think this?
Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen
I have no doubt that Chaim is free to spend up to the luxury tax. I also have no doubt that any long term, big money deals still need ownership's blessing regardless of luxury tax status.
Agnostic on larger arguments here, but on the farm system: we are in year four, right? So he’s had multiple years to trade, draft, and sign IFA. He has also had a luxury none of the recent GMs has had: he’s finished last 2 out of 3 years, thereby getting high picks. My question: other than the natural passing of time, what has he done to improve the system that stands out? They have acquired *zero* impact minor leaguers despite having traded an MVP, an all-star LF, an above-average catcher, etc. So yes the minors are better but… wouldn’t *you* have drafted Mayer? Was that a masterstroke? Final thing: Yorke had a bad year last year. I think we all agree it was injuries and that he should be a good bat. If he is, that was clever. But if he isn’t, that was a bad, bad pick. So there are also some significant factors outstanding.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 10, 2022 12:08:08 GMT -5
Bloom gets blame. What are you not understanding? But judging by your posts, I'd be shocked if you weren't John Henrys admin. Sure ownership is completely blameless for everything though. Sure. You also probably don't want to hang your argument on Pedroia and Xander as those were very team friendly extensions. By the way, where does Xander play now? My argument is ownership is operating as they always have which has been widely successful compared to Sox prior owners or relative to other owners since they bought the team. Ownerships failures have been gm dumping which is why we are so hot and cold season to season Bloom to me is to blame a lot for how the roster is constructed now. I don’t think ownership told him that they would like him to dismantle The whole record breaking 2018 team in a matter of 3-4 years Blooms most glaring failures have been pretty much been everything from November 2021 through now. It’s actually been an atrocious year for him Sure, Yawkeys and Harrington were terrible owners. The last part is honestly a fair point to make about Bloom. But let's look at it like this. Who signs the checks? Who authorized the spending? Who wanted to get rid of Mookie? It wasn't Bloom. They absolutely told Bloom to trade Mookie. You don't trade a top 5 player without a directive from up top. Again, baseball is a business. Anyone who has ever worked for a team is made very aware of this fact at all levels. My blame of ownership doesn’t mean that I hate ownership or want them to sell. Hell some of the people involved with the operation of the team such as Sam Kennedy I truly like. But there's enough blame to go around and by the time ownership green lit the saving face offer at the end for Xander he was already gone. Just listen to his press conference and the perception around the league. You don't have to read Verlanders brothers twitter account to figure out what people think about the Sox now. My honest opinion is that they sell within 3 years.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 10, 2022 12:24:57 GMT -5
All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom? Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves Either way a spade is a spade, Bloom sucks and I don’t feel a need to defend him, same as the other GMs that have come and gone. Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023 Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen Your theory is that the Red Sox ownership wants to spend more but is being held back by Bloom? And that they've just allowed that to happen for almost four years now? Okay.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 10, 2022 12:25:45 GMT -5
My argument is ownership is operating as they always have which has been widely successful compared to Sox prior owners or relative to other owners since they bought the team. Ownerships failures have been gm dumping which is why we are so hot and cold season to season Bloom to me is to blame a lot for how the roster is constructed now. I don’t think ownership told him that they would like him to dismantle The whole record breaking 2018 team in a matter of 3-4 years Blooms most glaring failures have been pretty much been everything from November 2021 through now. It’s actually been an atrocious year for him Sure, Yawkeys and Harrington were terrible owners. The last part is honestly a fair point to make about Bloom. But let's look at it like this. Who signs the checks? Who authorized the spending? Who wanted to get rid of Mookie? It wasn't Bloom. They absolutely told Bloom to trade Mookie. You don't trade a top 5 player without a directive from up top. Again, baseball is a business. Anyone who has ever worked for a team is made very aware of this fact at all levels. My blame of ownership doesn’t mean that I hate ownership or want them to sell. Hell some of the people involved with the operation of the team such as Sam Kennedy I truly like. But there's enough blame to go around and by the time ownership green lit the saving face offer at the end for Xander he was already gone. Just listen to his press conference and the perception around the league. You don't have to read Verlanders brothers twitter account to figure out what people think about the Sox now. My honest opinion is that they sell within 3 years. I dont know that it's correct that they absolutely told Bloom to trade mookie. I think they told him to get under the luxury tax and the only way it was happening was to flip half of prices deal. So blooms hands were tied so I guess it's splitting hairs but doubt owners said you have to trade mookie.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 10, 2022 12:32:32 GMT -5
All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom? Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves Either way a spade is a spade, Bloom sucks and I don’t feel a need to defend him, same as the other GMs that have come and gone. Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023 Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen Your theory is that the Red Sox ownership wants to spend more but is being held back by Bloom? And that they've just allowed that to happen for almost four years now? Okay. Not sure how you got that at all. My argument is bloom is terrible at allocating his spending given his very defined and historical limits set by ownership
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Post by incandenza on Dec 10, 2022 12:36:43 GMT -5
Your theory is that the Red Sox ownership wants to spend more but is being held back by Bloom? And that they've just allowed that to happen for almost four years now? Okay. Not sure how you got that at all. My argument is bloom is terrible at allocating his spending given his very defined and historical limits set by ownership This is just objectively wrong. Plenty to criticize Bloom about, but his free agent spending has been very efficient so far.
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Post by notstarboard on Dec 10, 2022 12:42:45 GMT -5
All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom?
Make a specific criticism and I'd be happy to. I have agreed with most of what he's done.
Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves
Bloom is an extremely good interviewer. He is articulate, takes accountability, and has a positive attitude.
Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people
The farm was ranked dead last when Bloom took over and as far as I can tell it's above average now. There was a ton of dead money & bad contracts on the books when Bloom took over and aside from Sale, all of that has been cleared: Price, Pedroia, Sandoval, Castillo, etc. He so far hasn't made any terrible signings of his own to add to this list. The closest would be Barnes' deal, which is pretty minor on the grand scheme of things. He could even redeem that if he pitches like he did down the stretch last year.
This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023
What makes you think this?
Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen
I have no doubt that Chaim is free to spend up to the luxury tax. I also have no doubt that any long term, big money deals still need ownership's blessing regardless of luxury tax status.
Agnostic on larger arguments here, but on the farm system: we are in year four, right? So he’s had multiple years to trade, draft, and sign IFA. He has also had a luxury none of the recent GMs has had: he’s finished last 2 out of 3 years, thereby getting high picks. My question: other than the natural passing of time, what has he done to improve the system that stands out? They have acquired *zero* impact minor leaguers despite having traded an MVP, an all-star LF, an above-average catcher, etc. So yes the minors are better but… wouldn’t *you* have drafted Mayer? Was that a masterstroke? Final thing: Yorke had a bad year last year. I think we all agree it was injuries and that he should be a good bat. If he is, that was clever. But if he isn’t, that was a bad, bad pick. So there are also some significant factors outstanding. You're overselling the guys that were traded imo. Even with hindsight on Downs likely being a bust, we traded one season of Mookie Betts on a 1/27 deal stapled to the corpse of David Price on a 3/48 deal for 5 affordable years of a roughly league average LF and 6 affordable years of a probable major league platoon catcher. Per Fangraphs, Price returned $6.4 million of value to LAD on that $48 million deal. Meanwhile Mookie was worth about $12 million in surplus value in 2020, which pro-rates to about $32 million of surplus value if the season had been 162 games. So, for the cost LAD paid, Price + Betts were actually a poor combined value over the length of their deals; they were worth ~$10 million less than LAD paid. Verdugo alone has already had a surplus value in the neighborhood of $35 million and he has two years of control left. Not trying to rehash whether or not keeping him was smart - my point is just that the return has been substantially more valuable than what we gave up. So, I'm not worried in the slightest that basically all of the value so far has come from a guy who was already a major leaguer. Verdugo was the biggest piece of the return anyways, and Wong may well add to that value surplus. I get that you can't take a dollar surplus estimate at face value, but when those guys have roles on a team with no alternatives (like Boston), just about all of that value is being taken advantage of. Paying more per marginal win for a guy like Mookie makes a lot of sense if you don't have holes in your roster that an average OF could fill (like LAD), so you can only improve by seeking more elite talent. AND, incidentally, if we'd had Mookie in RF in 2020, we wouldn't have gotten Mayer. So, massive W.
Benintendi was not "an All-Star LF" when he was traded. He had been awful for the final month of 2019 and then was offensively bad in 2020 before missing the rest of the year with an injury. He had bulked up and seeiming lost some contact ability and fielding ability as a result. You could argue it was selling low, and it turned out to be just that, but there were serious questions about his ability to start for this team in 2021. He ended up being worth like 4.5 fWAR over two seasons and being worth in the $20-25 million range for surplus value. Cordero didn't work out in Boston, but we'll see if the other prospects amount to anything. I think Winck has a chance to do well in the bullpen given that he's been able to touch 98-99 out of the pen in the past. If Winck can stick in the pen, this could even be a wash. If not, it was an L. It happens.
Vazquez was traded like four months ago for prospects, so obviously they're not going to have done anything at the ML level yet. My gripe with Bloom at the deadline is not making more trades exactly like this one to move guys like JDM. This in turn resulted in getting less compensation for guys like Bogaerts, and will probably prevent us from going over the luxury tax in at least one of '23 and '24. And that's not to mention the value we could have directly acquired by trading JDM, Eovaldi, etc. away.
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I have been satisfied with Bloom's drafting. So far there seem to have been a lot of guys who have exceeded expectations. Mayer was an obvious decision, but even decisions that looked questionable at the time, like going under slot for Romero and Yorke to be able to sign Anthony and Jordan later on, are looking like great moves so far. I'm not worried about Yorke yet because the SP guys aren't worried about Yorke yet. Injuries happen.
Bloom's been shrewd with FA / rule 5 minor league acquisitions as well, notably with guys like Schreiber, Whitlock, and Refsnyder. Again, many others haven't done anything, but keeping that churn going and finding some diamonds in the rough is important. He's also emphasized building prospect capital via trade as well, and while some of those guys have impressed and others have flopped, this is something that Dombrowski basically never did, and that I feel it's important to do in order to increase the odds of getting value from the farm. Bloom could stand to trade some prospect capital more often in my opinion, but I also feel DD went overboard in that regard. Then there's the notable IFA success of Miguel Bleis, who is fast becoming one of the top players in the entire system.
The end result is that 19 of the top 30 prospects per SP.com were acquired by Bloom, including 5 of the top 10, which is saying something, because proximity boosts rankings, and therefore any remaining DD guys with any chance of contributing in the majors will be disproportionately represented at the top. And, of course, the industry consensus on the farm has jumped accordingly. After three seasons, that feels like a pretty decent outcome to me. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect "good" and for the vision to make sense. Bloom has cleared that bar in my opinion, and so I continue to be satisfied.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 10, 2022 12:50:58 GMT -5
I think it's very fair to say that amateur scouting (internationally and domestically) has been very strong under Bloom and that minor league pro scouting has been generally poor. There have been wins (Pivetta and Whitlock) but the returns haven't been optimal. The Benintendi trade was specifically a disaster. They sold low on him and only one of the five players they got looks like he can help. Thing is, I don't think it's like an allocation of financial resources issue or whatever. It's that the players he's acquired haven't been good enough, and the roster construction too often leaves me scratching my head.
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Post by taiwansox on Dec 10, 2022 12:53:01 GMT -5
Yet you offer no counterpoints… an empty post All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom?
Make a specific criticism and I'd be happy to. I have agreed with most of what he's done.
Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves
Bloom is an extremely good interviewer. He is articulate, takes accountability, and has a positive attitude.
Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people
The farm was ranked dead last when Bloom took over and as far as I can tell it's above average now. There was a ton of dead money & bad contracts on the books when Bloom took over and aside from Sale, all of that has been cleared: Price, Pedroia, Sandoval, Castillo, etc. He so far hasn't made any terrible signings of his own to add to this list. The closest would be Barnes' deal, which is pretty minor on the grand scheme of things. He could even redeem that if he pitches like he did down the stretch last year.
Last year's last place team was much more the result of catastrophic injury luck and the lack of farm & payroll flexibility from the DD years than from any moves Bloom made. The only move that backfired was bringing back JBJ. Most of the guys that came in were actually well worth the cash: Wacha, Hill, Schreiber, Refsnyder, etc.
The Sox are still feeling the effects of the state of the farm when DD left. They haven't developed a regular since Devers, and he's been in the league for five years. It's extremely difficult to stay competitive without young, controllable talent providing surplus value, even for teams with big budgets. The farm does seem poised to start bearing fruit, but that hasn't been the case for Bloom's entire tenure thus far.
Finally, this is the first offseason he's really had a lot of money to spend, and he still has about $40 million to go before the tax line. This year is really the turning point for me where it will finally feel a lot more like Bloom's team than Dombrowski's. Criticizing Bloom for 2020-2022 feels silly, though, when all he did was do his best with the corpse of DD's organization. And, between the last place finishes, we were somehow two games from the WS. That's as much good luck as 2022 was bad luck, but still, some lemonade has clearly been made here.
This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023
What makes you think this?
Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen
I have no doubt that Chaim is free to spend up to the luxury tax. I also have no doubt that any long term, big money deals still need ownership's blessing regardless of luxury tax status.
Edits
All valid points except for having more faith in Cherington. He was truly awful and without getting insanely lucky in 2013 (and the Dodgers bailout) he’d be way more reviled. His drafts were abysmal even when you give him a mulligan on Trey Ball. We didn’t even produce a reliever from his drafts lol. His trades were also all like 4 for 1 for relievers (Hanrahan, Bailey, Melancon) and he got lucky in the Hanrahan deal where Farrell’s son recommended Brock Holt. I might have had a different opinion if he got that Shoppach for DeGrom fleecing through, but that didn’t happen!
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Post by notstarboard on Dec 10, 2022 12:57:09 GMT -5
All I am really trying to understand is why is there such a contingent of Sox fans that want to fall on the sword to defend Bloom?
Make a specific criticism and I'd be happy to. I have agreed with most of what he's done.
Even listening to Cherington getting interviewed as the pirates gm, I’d put way more faith in him than bloom just by how they conduct themselves
Bloom is an extremely good interviewer. He is articulate, takes accountability, and has a positive attitude.
Enough of this bloom is the victim of circumstance. This is his 4th off-season. The results are a last place team and a very middle of the pack farm….. like let’s wake up people
The farm was ranked dead last when Bloom took over and as far as I can tell it's above average now. There was a ton of dead money & bad contracts on the books when Bloom took over and aside from Sale, all of that has been cleared: Price, Pedroia, Sandoval, Castillo, etc. He so far hasn't made any terrible signings of his own to add to this list. The closest would be Barnes' deal, which is pretty minor on the grand scheme of things. He could even redeem that if he pitches like he did down the stretch last year.
Last year's last place team was much more the result of catastrophic injury luck and the lack of farm & payroll flexibility from the DD years than from any moves Bloom made. The only move that backfired was bringing back JBJ. Most of the guys that came in were actually well worth the cash: Wacha, Hill, Schreiber, Refsnyder, etc.
The Sox are still feeling the effects of the state of the farm when DD left. They haven't developed a regular since Devers, and he's been in the league for five years. It's extremely difficult to stay competitive without young, controllable talent providing surplus value, even for teams with big budgets. The farm does seem poised to start bearing fruit, but that hasn't been the case for Bloom's entire tenure thus far.
Finally, this is the first offseason he's really had a lot of money to spend, and he still has about $40 million to go before the tax line. This year is really the turning point for me where it will finally feel a lot more like Bloom's team than Dombrowski's. Criticizing Bloom for 2020-2022 feels silly, though, when all he did was do his best with the corpse of DD's organization. And, between the last place finishes, we were somehow two games from the WS. That's as much good luck as 2022 was bad luck, but still, some lemonade has clearly been made here.
This is all setting up for a Theo reunion sometime in 2023
What makes you think this?
Lastly there is no proof that ownership doesn’t want to spend. Nothing has changed, our gm is free to spend up to the luxury tax limit, find any evidence that, that has changed and I’ll listen
I have no doubt that Chaim is free to spend up to the luxury tax. I also have no doubt that any long term, big money deals still need ownership's blessing regardless of luxury tax status.
Edits
All valid points except for having more faith in Cherington. He was truly awful and without getting insanely lucky in 2013 (and the Dodgers bailout) he’d be way more reviled. His drafts were abysmal even when you give him a mulligan on Trey Ball. We didn’t even produce a reliever from his drafts lol. His trades were also all like 4 for 1 for relievers (Hanrahan, Bailey, Melancon) and he got lucky in the Hanrahan deal where Farrell’s son recommended Brock Holt. I might have had a different opinion if he got that Shoppach for DeGrom fleecing through, but that didn’t happen! The non-bolded stuff in my comment was another comment I was replying to! I agree with you about Cherington
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Post by steveofbradenton on Dec 10, 2022 13:00:33 GMT -5
In my opinion it all went wrong when we got the return for Mookie, not getting at least one really good player is a huge miss. I'll actually defend not giving out 10+ year contracts to guys pushing 30 years old or not giving long term contracts to aging pitchers, but with that being said if thats your org philosophy than you better copy the Braves model of taking care of your homegrown guys way before the bill is due. THIS to me is our biggest fault. It's like no one is thinking ahead. Mookie should have been extended after his 2nd season...same with Devers. Certainly Bogie should been extended last spring, at the least. I have sat back and really admired how the Braves have gone about their business. The Rays are more on top of this strategy than we are. Really glad Whitlock was taken care of and if Bello has a decent season, I hope they get off their ass and extend him to a team friendly contract. Casas too! I've been definitely a Bloom backer, but it is really getting hard to continue. What a disaster the Xander handling was.
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Post by manfred on Dec 10, 2022 13:00:58 GMT -5
Agnostic on larger arguments here, but on the farm system: we are in year four, right? So he’s had multiple years to trade, draft, and sign IFA. He has also had a luxury none of the recent GMs has had: he’s finished last 2 out of 3 years, thereby getting high picks. My question: other than the natural passing of time, what has he done to improve the system that stands out? They have acquired *zero* impact minor leaguers despite having traded an MVP, an all-star LF, an above-average catcher, etc. So yes the minors are better but… wouldn’t *you* have drafted Mayer? Was that a masterstroke? Final thing: Yorke had a bad year last year. I think we all agree it was injuries and that he should be a good bat. If he is, that was clever. But if he isn’t, that was a bad, bad pick. So there are also some significant factors outstanding. You're overselling the guys that were traded imo. Even with hindsight on Downs likely being a bust, we traded one season of Mookie Betts on a 1/27 deal stapled to the corpse of David Price on a 3/48 deal for 5 affordable years of a roughly league average LF and 6 affordable years of a probable major league platoon catcher. Per Fangraphs, Price returned $6.4 million of value to LAD on that $48 million deal. Meanwhile Mookie was worth about $12 million in surplus value in 2020, which pro-rates to about $32 million of surplus value if the season had been 162 games. So, for the cost LAD paid, Price + Betts were actually a poor combined value over the length of their deals; they were worth ~$10 million less than LAD paid. Verdugo alone has already had a surplus value in the neighborhood of $35 million and he has two years of control left. Not trying to rehash whether or not keeping him was smart - my point is just that the return has been substantially more valuable than what we gave up. So, I'm not worried in the slightest that basically all of the value so far has come from a guy who was already a major leaguer. Verdugo was the biggest piece of the return anyways, and Wong may well add to that value surplus. I get that you can't take a dollar surplus estimate at face value, but when those guys have roles on a team with no alternatives (like Boston), just about all of that value is being taken advantage of. Paying more per marginal win for a guy like Mookie makes a lot of sense if you don't have holes in your roster that an average OF could fill (like LAD), so you can only improve by seeking more elite talent. AND, incidentally, if we'd had Mookie in RF in 2020, we wouldn't have gotten Mayer. So, massive W.
Benintendi was not "an All-Star LF" when he was traded. He had been awful for the final month of 2019 and then was offensively bad in 2020 before missing the rest of the year with an injury. He had bulked up and seeiming lost some contact ability and fielding ability as a result. You could argue it was selling low, and it turned out to be just that, but there were serious questions about his ability to start for this team in 2021. He ended up being worth like 4.5 fWAR over two seasons and being worth in the $20-25 million range for surplus value. Cordero didn't work out in Boston, but we'll see if the other prospects amount to anything. I think Winck has a chance to do well in the bullpen given that he's been able to touch 98-99 out of the pen in the past. If Winck can stick in the pen, this could even be a wash. If not, it was an L. It happens.
Vazquez was traded like four months ago for prospects, so obviously they're not going to have done anything at the ML level yet. My gripe with Bloom at the deadline is not making more trades exactly like this one to move guys like JDM. This in turn resulted in getting less compensation for guys like Bogaerts, and will probably prevent us from going over the luxury tax in at least one of '23 and '24. And that's not to mention the value we could have directly acquired by trading JDM, Eovaldi, etc. away.
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I have been satisfied with Bloom's drafting. So far there seem to have been a lot of guys who have exceeded expectations. Mayer was an obvious decision, but even decisions that looked questionable at the time, like going under slot for Romero and Yorke to be able to sign Anthony and Jordan later on, are looking like great moves so far. I'm not worried about Yorke yet because the SP guys aren't worried about Yorke yet. Injuries happen.
Bloom's been shrewd with FA / rule 5 minor league acquisitions as well, notably with guys like Schreiber, Whitlock, and Refsnyder. Again, many others haven't done anything, but keeping that churn going and finding some diamonds in the rough is important. He's also emphasized building prospect capital via trade as well, and while some of those guys have impressed and others have flopped, this is something that Dombrowski basically never did, and that I feel it's important to do in order to increase the odds of getting value from the farm. Bloom could stand to trade some prospect capital more often in my opinion, but I also feel DD went overboard in that regard. Then there's the notable IFA success of Miguel Bleis, who is fast becoming one of the top players in the entire system.
The end result is that 19 of the top 30 prospects per SP.com were acquired by Bloom, including 5 of the top 10, which is saying something, because proximity boosts rankings, and therefore any remaining DD guys with any chance of contributing in the majors will be disproportionately represented at the top. And, of course, the industry consensus on the farm has jumped accordingly. After three seasons, that feels like a pretty decent outcome to me. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect "good" and for the vision to make sense. Bloom has cleared that bar in my opinion, and so I continue to be satisfied.
But my point is, those guys in the top-10 are mostly 1st or 2nd rd picks. Look at the archive: take, say, 2017, where we find top-10 prospects Chavis (1st rd); Sam Travis (2nd rd); Jay Groome (1st round); CJ Chatham (2nd rd); Tanner Houck (1st rd). My point is, well, those 1st and 2nd round picks generally almost automatically end up there. Who drafts so badly that within a year those are not high ranking guys? So obviously Mayer, Yorke, Anthony, and Romero are big additions. But none exhibit unusual acumen. They are simply the result of successive drafts. That is not exceptional… it is automatic. Now Mayer is a great prospect, but he is the result of having absolutely mailed in a season. Maybe that was genius?
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 10, 2022 13:14:11 GMT -5
Signing Yorke and Romero for $900K and $700K underslot, respectively, allowed them to draft Jordan and Anthony, with the added bonus that the first-rounders have looked like first-rounders. That's pretty huge. You can't just look at the top 10 at a different time and compare the prospects. Being a top-10 prospect in the system in late 2017 doesn't mean the same as today.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 10, 2022 13:14:14 GMT -5
You're overselling the guys that were traded imo. Even with hindsight on Downs likely being a bust, we traded one season of Mookie Betts on a 1/27 deal stapled to the corpse of David Price on a 3/48 deal for 5 affordable years of a roughly league average LF and 6 affordable years of a probable major league platoon catcher. Per Fangraphs, Price returned $6.4 million of value to LAD on that $48 million deal. Meanwhile Mookie was worth about $12 million in surplus value in 2020, which pro-rates to about $32 million of surplus value if the season had been 162 games. So, for the cost LAD paid, Price + Betts were actually a poor combined value over the length of their deals; they were worth ~$10 million less than LAD paid. Verdugo alone has already had a surplus value in the neighborhood of $35 million and he has two years of control left. Not trying to rehash whether or not keeping him was smart - my point is just that the return has been substantially more valuable than what we gave up. So, I'm not worried in the slightest that basically all of the value so far has come from a guy who was already a major leaguer. Verdugo was the biggest piece of the return anyways, and Wong may well add to that value surplus. I get that you can't take a dollar surplus estimate at face value, but when those guys have roles on a team with no alternatives (like Boston), just about all of that value is being taken advantage of. Paying more per marginal win for a guy like Mookie makes a lot of sense if you don't have holes in your roster that an average OF could fill (like LAD), so you can only improve by seeking more elite talent. AND, incidentally, if we'd had Mookie in RF in 2020, we wouldn't have gotten Mayer. So, massive W.
Benintendi was not "an All-Star LF" when he was traded. He had been awful for the final month of 2019 and then was offensively bad in 2020 before missing the rest of the year with an injury. He had bulked up and seeiming lost some contact ability and fielding ability as a result. You could argue it was selling low, and it turned out to be just that, but there were serious questions about his ability to start for this team in 2021. He ended up being worth like 4.5 fWAR over two seasons and being worth in the $20-25 million range for surplus value. Cordero didn't work out in Boston, but we'll see if the other prospects amount to anything. I think Winck has a chance to do well in the bullpen given that he's been able to touch 98-99 out of the pen in the past. If Winck can stick in the pen, this could even be a wash. If not, it was an L. It happens.
Vazquez was traded like four months ago for prospects, so obviously they're not going to have done anything at the ML level yet. My gripe with Bloom at the deadline is not making more trades exactly like this one to move guys like JDM. This in turn resulted in getting less compensation for guys like Bogaerts, and will probably prevent us from going over the luxury tax in at least one of '23 and '24. And that's not to mention the value we could have directly acquired by trading JDM, Eovaldi, etc. away.
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I have been satisfied with Bloom's drafting. So far there seem to have been a lot of guys who have exceeded expectations. Mayer was an obvious decision, but even decisions that looked questionable at the time, like going under slot for Romero and Yorke to be able to sign Anthony and Jordan later on, are looking like great moves so far. I'm not worried about Yorke yet because the SP guys aren't worried about Yorke yet. Injuries happen.
Bloom's been shrewd with FA / rule 5 minor league acquisitions as well, notably with guys like Schreiber, Whitlock, and Refsnyder. Again, many others haven't done anything, but keeping that churn going and finding some diamonds in the rough is important. He's also emphasized building prospect capital via trade as well, and while some of those guys have impressed and others have flopped, this is something that Dombrowski basically never did, and that I feel it's important to do in order to increase the odds of getting value from the farm. Bloom could stand to trade some prospect capital more often in my opinion, but I also feel DD went overboard in that regard. Then there's the notable IFA success of Miguel Bleis, who is fast becoming one of the top players in the entire system.
The end result is that 19 of the top 30 prospects per SP.com were acquired by Bloom, including 5 of the top 10, which is saying something, because proximity boosts rankings, and therefore any remaining DD guys with any chance of contributing in the majors will be disproportionately represented at the top. And, of course, the industry consensus on the farm has jumped accordingly. After three seasons, that feels like a pretty decent outcome to me. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect "good" and for the vision to make sense. Bloom has cleared that bar in my opinion, and so I continue to be satisfied.
But my point is, those guys in the top-10 are mostly 1st or 2nd rd picks. Look at the archive: take, say, 2017, where we find top-10 prospects Chavis (1st rd); Sam Travis (2nd rd); Jay Groome (1st round); CJ Chatham (2nd rd); Tanner Houck (1st rd). My point is, well, those 1st and 2nd round picks generally almost automatically end up there. Who drafts so badly that within a year those are not high ranking guys? So obviously Mayer, Yorke, Anthony, and Romero are big additions. But none exhibit unusual acumen. They are simply the result of successive drafts. That is not exceptional… it is automatic. Now Mayer is a great prospect, but he is the result of having absolutely mailed in a season. Maybe that was genius? If you add 10 prospects who each have a 10% chance of panning out, then the odds are decent that at least one of them will pan out. But what you do is point repeatedly to each of the 9 that doesn't pan out and say it proves you right. (E.g., snarky comments like this one, or the many hundreds of comments about Franchy you've posted over the years.) And feel free to go through the rankings history and look at prospects in the 10-20 range - typically, I'd say, about 1 in 10 of them at any given time pan out.
If there's something systemically wrong with the way the Red Sox evaluate minor league talent then none of the acquisitions will ever amount to anything. But just an occasional hit makes the strategy of building prospect depth worthwhile.
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