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6/30-7/2 Red Sox @ Blue Jays Series Thread
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 3, 2023 17:46:12 GMT -5
I've made a similar argument with Raffy, though, and nobody wants to hear it because we all love the kid so much. Dugo is on pace for 5.4 b-Ref WAR, which would be higher than Raffy has put up in four years when he hit that same number. FG shades a bit toward Raffy but you get the point. Dugo is having a nice year and would be a legitimate AS. I'd love to see the Red Sox extend him at reasonable dollars and years. But is he an elite player? I would say no. Same standard for everybody. Then what qualifies as elite? Being the best RF defensively in the AL this year while being the most clutch player on our team since Ortiz leading the team in WAR, Has single handedly won us like 7 games now with walk offs and outfield assists. He's been our best player this season. If we want to take pride as a fanbase we should have voted for him. Him not being in the top 20 for OF is pathetic. We can do better then that. A guy going into FA has to feel some type of way knowing his own fans are not voting for him. I see Verdugo being another guy who we don't appreciate until he's gone. That just drives me CRAZY. Verdugo has the most Clutch value in baseball since 2021, and is top 20 in WPA. YMMV on how much you think that reflects a real skill
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Post by yuchangclan on Jul 3, 2023 19:09:33 GMT -5
I've made a similar argument with Raffy, though, and nobody wants to hear it because we all love the kid so much. Dugo is on pace for 5.4 b-Ref WAR, which would be higher than Raffy has put up in four years when he hit that same number. FG shades a bit toward Raffy but you get the point. Dugo is having a nice year and would be a legitimate AS. I'd love to see the Red Sox extend him at reasonable dollars and years. But is he an elite player? I would say no. Same standard for everybody. Then what qualifies as elite? Being the best RF defensively in the AL this year while being the most clutch player on our team since Ortiz leading the team in WAR, Has single handedly won us like 7 games now with walk offs and outfield assists. He's been our best player this season. If we want to take pride as a fanbase we should of voted for him. Him not being in the top 20 for OF is pathetic. We can do better then that. A guy going into FA has to feel some type of way knowing his own fans are not voting for him. I see Verdugo being another guy who we don't appreciate until he's gone. That just drives me CRAZY. He wasn’t a glaring choice to be an all-star during the first half(and still isn’t IMO). Most fans still see .295BA with 6HR and 34RBI and say “meh”. If he’s the best we’ve got, the roster simply needs to be better.
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 3, 2023 19:13:15 GMT -5
Then what qualifies as elite? Being the best RF defensively in the AL this year while being the most clutch player on our team since Ortiz leading the team in WAR, Has single handedly won us like 7 games now with walk offs and outfield assists. He's been our best player this season. If we want to take pride as a fanbase we should have voted for him. Him not being in the top 20 for OF is pathetic. We can do better then that. A guy going into FA has to feel some type of way knowing his own fans are not voting for him. I see Verdugo being another guy who we don't appreciate until he's gone. That just drives me CRAZY. Verdugo has the most Clutch value in baseball since 2021, and is top 20 in WPA. YMMV on how much you think that reflects a real skill It's a real skill. I mean, JDM is an All-Star and Turner hasn't been mentioned as a candidate, JDM has a 127 to 120 edge in wRC+, but Turner is clobbering JDM in WPA exactly as expected.
(1.79, 5th among DH, versus 0.89, 10th).
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jul 3, 2023 19:25:26 GMT -5
Verdugo has the most Clutch value in baseball since 2021, and is top 20 in WPA. YMMV on how much you think that reflects a real skill It's a real skill. I mean, JDM is an All-Star and Turner hasn't been mentioned as a candidate, JDM has a 127 to 120 edge in wRC+, but Turner is clobbering JDM in WPA exactly as expected.
(1.79, 5th among DH, versus 0.89, 10th).
This is all fine, but guys, c’mon… like it or not, the all star game is a big advertisement. The NBA has a dunk contest, not an assist:turnover contest. Baseball has a home run contest, and they’ll talk ad nauseum about a guy like Trout even if he’s having a (relatively!!) down year. The point is… this is a game for casual fans who want counting stats. In that sense, Devers is the snub… 3rd in HRs, 3rd in RBI. None of this explains Merrifield, one of life’s greatest mysteries.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 3, 2023 19:54:22 GMT -5
It's a real skill. I mean, JDM is an All-Star and Turner hasn't been mentioned as a candidate, JDM has a 127 to 120 edge in wRC+, but Turner is clobbering JDM in WPA exactly as expected.
(1.79, 5th among DH, versus 0.89, 10th).
This is all fine, but guys, c’mon… like it or not, the all star game is a big advertisement. The NBA has a dunk contest, not an assist:turnover contest. Baseball has a home run contest, and they’ll talk ad nauseum about a guy like Trout even if he’s having a (relatively!!) down year. The point is… this is a game for casual fans who want counting stats. In that sense, Devers is the snub… 3rd in HRs, 3rd in RBI. None of this explains Merrifield, one of life’s greatest mysteries. Middle of the continent has fans too.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 3, 2023 20:36:45 GMT -5
www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2023/06/23/alex-verdugo-al-all-star-voting-red-sox-fans/Like I've been saying for years. You guys need to get off your butts and VOTE!!!!!!! This guy has been balling out for us and this is the respect we show him. Why would he even want to resign? You guys understand a player getting votes is something they look at to see how much they are loved and appreciated. We show our players NO LOVE!!!! We make it all about the money and then we get mad when they wont take any pay cuts. NOT IN THE TOP 20?! WOW I disagree with the premise he is *clearly* their best player, as I wrote in the Duran thread. But setting Verdugo aside, this article is really an indictment of the product. If he *is* their best player, then that might explain why they are where they are. And I don’t just mean the standings, but I mean far more the ennui of the fanbase. You can’t get mad at fans for not rallying for a guy who is the best player by default (partly because the actual best player is having a bad year) when the team overall is not good. Whose fault is that? He’s been much better than Raffy. Raffy makes $300 mill and is a star. Idk what you’re talking about.
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Post by cdj on Jul 3, 2023 20:39:12 GMT -5
Then what qualifies as elite? Being the best RF defensively in the AL this year while being the most clutch player on our team since Ortiz leading the team in WAR, Has single handedly won us like 7 games now with walk offs and outfield assists. He's been our best player this season. If we want to take pride as a fanbase we should of voted for him. Him not being in the top 20 for OF is pathetic. We can do better then that. A guy going into FA has to feel some type of way knowing his own fans are not voting for him. I see Verdugo being another guy who we don't appreciate until he's gone. That just drives me CRAZY. He wasn’t a glaring choice to be an all-star during the first half(and still isn’t IMO). Most fans still see .295BA with 6HR and 34RBI and say “meh”. If he’s the best we’ve got, the roster simply needs to be better. His OPS+ is 121 and he plays GG caliber defense, that’s on the fans for being dumbasses quite frankly then. That’s the best player on a lot of teams. And he *shouldnt* be the best player (which you’re all ignoring), he’s just been better than that superstar on the roster everybody has forgotten about apparently
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 3, 2023 20:41:42 GMT -5
Give him the Strider deal
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jul 3, 2023 20:46:52 GMT -5
I disagree with the premise he is *clearly* their best player, as I wrote in the Duran thread. But setting Verdugo aside, this article is really an indictment of the product. If he *is* their best player, then that might explain why they are where they are. And I don’t just mean the standings, but I mean far more the ennui of the fanbase. You can’t get mad at fans for not rallying for a guy who is the best player by default (partly because the actual best player is having a bad year) when the team overall is not good. Whose fault is that? He’s been much better than Raffy. Raffy makes $300 mill and is a star. Idk what you’re talking about. My point is people on here can make the case because advanced stats tell a story and watching him every day supports it. But to a fan less interested in advanced stats, Verdugo doesn’t scream all star… so I’m not shocked people didn’t feel moved to vote for him. He may be the best player… on a not very good team that doesn’t obviously inspire enormous passion. I just don’t think people can blame *fans* for not rallying to a team that has not been fun this year (or last). That is kind of on the Sox.
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Post by manfred on Jul 3, 2023 20:51:51 GMT -5
He wasn’t a glaring choice to be an all-star during the first half(and still isn’t IMO). Most fans still see .295BA with 6HR and 34RBI and say “meh”. If he’s the best we’ve got, the roster simply needs to be better. His OPS+ is 121 and he plays GG caliber defense, that’s on the fans for being dumbasses quite frankly then. That’s the best player on a lot of teams. And he *shouldnt* be the best player (which you’re all ignoring), he’s just been better than that superstar on the roster everybody has forgotten about apparently There are a lot of arguments for him but OPS+ is not one. He has the same OPS+ as Gunner Henderson. He would, in fact, not lead any AL East team, and he’d be 8th on the Rays. Austin Hays, a pick I view as a slight headscratcher, has an OPS+ of 134. Of the non-injured reserves, his OPS+ ranks behind them all.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jul 3, 2023 20:55:06 GMT -5
I've made a similar argument with Raffy, though, and nobody wants to hear it because we all love the kid so much. Dugo is on pace for 5.4 b-Ref WAR, which would be higher than Raffy has put up in four years when he hit that same number. FG shades a bit toward Raffy but you get the point. Dugo is having a nice year and would be a legitimate AS. I'd love to see the Red Sox extend him at reasonable dollars and years. But is he an elite player? I would say no. Same standard for everybody. Then what qualifies as elite? Being the best RF defensively in the AL this year while being the most clutch player on our team since Ortiz leading the team in WAR, Has single handedly won us like 7 games now with walk offs and outfield assists. He's been our best player this season. If we want to take pride as a fanbase we should of voted for him. Him not being in the top 20 for OF is pathetic. We can do better then that. A guy going into FA has to feel some type of way knowing his own fans are not voting for him. I see Verdugo being another guy who we don't appreciate until he's gone. That just drives me CRAZY. I agree with the bolded part and hope they sign him to a reasonable contract. With Duran ascending and Rafaela on the way, I'm not getting my hopes up that Bloom will go in the direction we'd like. To your question as to what makes a player elite, it's subjective, of course. To make that judgment, one of the first questions I'd ask is whether the player is good enough to be the best player on a championship team. YMMV. The 5.4 b-Ref WAR Raffy put up in 2019 and that Dugo is on pace to put up this year would not qualify as the highest on any of the Red Sox 21st century WS winning teams. It also wouldn't be the highest on the last three Red Sox AL pennant winners that lost the WS. On most of these teams, 5.4 wouldn't even be second.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 3, 2023 21:05:46 GMT -5
His OPS+ is 121 and he plays GG caliber defense, that’s on the fans for being dumbasses quite frankly then. That’s the best player on a lot of teams. And he *shouldnt* be the best player (which you’re all ignoring), he’s just been better than that superstar on the roster everybody has forgotten about apparently There are a lot of arguments for him but OPS+ is not one. He has the same OPS+ as Gunner Henderson. He would, in fact, not lead any AL East team, and he’d be 8th on the Rays. Austin Hays, a pick I view as a slight headscratcher, has an OPS+ of 134. Of the non-injured reserves, his OPS+ ranks behind them all. A 121 OPS+ with gg defense is still many teams best player! Conveniently leave that last part out, Sox fans starting to act like the parent club and ignore defense now smdh And tbh with you I still take him over 99% of the league in the 9th in need of a walk off
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Post by bluechip on Jul 3, 2023 21:13:49 GMT -5
This is all fine, but guys, c’mon… like it or not, the all star game is a big advertisement. The NBA has a dunk contest, not an assist:turnover contest. Baseball has a home run contest, and they’ll talk ad nauseum about a guy like Trout even if he’s having a (relatively!!) down year. The point is… this is a game for casual fans who want counting stats. In that sense, Devers is the snub… 3rd in HRs, 3rd in RBI. None of this explains Merrifield, one of life’s greatest mysteries. Middle of the continent has fans too. He was elected by the players though. Fan voting can get flak but not for this selection.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jul 3, 2023 21:22:49 GMT -5
There are a lot of arguments for him but OPS+ is not one. He has the same OPS+ as Gunner Henderson. He would, in fact, not lead any AL East team, and he’d be 8th on the Rays. Austin Hays, a pick I view as a slight headscratcher, has an OPS+ of 134. Of the non-injured reserves, his OPS+ ranks behind them all. A 121 OPS+ with gg defense is still many teams best player! Conveniently leave that last part out, Sox fans starting to act like the parent club and ignore defense now smdh And tbh with you I still take him over 99% of the league in the 9th in need of a walk off Again, you watch him frequently. But most fans don’t follow defensive metrics. Off the top of your head, how are Austin Hays’s numbers? He’s got better offensive stats… is the defense so far apart? (I genuinely don’t know). Kevin Keirmaier has an OPS+ of 114 and remains an elite CF. Should he be irked? All I’m saying is… if people want to bash fans for not voting, doing it when a guy is hardly a shoe-in seems a bit unfair. I can see arguments for Verdugo, but there is a solid argument against him… and clearly he doesn’t deserve to start ahead of three starters. So the beef is fans didn’t have him, what, top-10? Who cares?
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 3, 2023 21:41:47 GMT -5
A 121 OPS+ with gg defense is still many teams best player! Conveniently leave that last part out, Sox fans starting to act like the parent club and ignore defense now smdh And tbh with you I still take him over 99% of the league in the 9th in need of a walk off Again, you watch him frequently. But most fans don’t follow defensive metrics. Off the top of your head, how are Austin Hays’s numbers? He’s got better offensive stats… is the defense so far apart? (I genuinely don’t know). Kevin Keirmaier has an OPS+ of 114 and remains an elite CF. Should he be irked? All I’m saying is… if people want to bash fans for not voting, doing it when a guy is hardly a shoe-in seems a bit unfair. I can see arguments for Verdugo, but there is a solid argument against him… and clearly he doesn’t deserve to start ahead of three starters. So the beef is fans didn’t have him, what, top-10? Who cares? Oh I don’t give a crap about the all star game, I’m just saying he’s clearly been this teams best player over the course of the full season and if Sox fans can’t recognize that they’re pretty uneducated! He’s outplayed the teams $300 mill player so it’s not like he’s the best player on a starless team like you seem to be implying. There’s absolutely a face of the franchise. And Verdugo has outplayed him.
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Post by yuchangclan on Jul 3, 2023 22:07:25 GMT -5
He wasn’t a glaring choice to be an all-star during the first half(and still isn’t IMO). Most fans still see .295BA with 6HR and 34RBI and say “meh”. If he’s the best we’ve got, the roster simply needs to be better. His OPS+ is 121 and he plays GG caliber defense, that’s on the fans for being dumbasses quite frankly then. That’s the best player on a lot of teams. And he *shouldnt* be the best player (which you’re all ignoring), he’s just been better than that superstar on the roster everybody has forgotten about apparently My point is that MOST baseball fans are not like the stat crazies that inhabit these boards. Most fans still look at BA, HR & RBI as the big 3. OBP might be getting there as a 4th stat. OPS+? If we went around a standard ballpark and sampled fans to see if they could definite it, I’d bet 70% of fans would have no idea. I might even be generous with that number.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 3, 2023 22:19:12 GMT -5
His OPS+ is 121 and he plays GG caliber defense, that’s on the fans for being dumbasses quite frankly then. That’s the best player on a lot of teams. And he *shouldnt* be the best player (which you’re all ignoring), he’s just been better than that superstar on the roster everybody has forgotten about apparently My point is that MOST baseball fans are not like the stat crazies that inhabit these boards. Most fans still look at BA, HR & RBI as the big 3. OBP might be getting there as a 4th stat. OPS+? If we went around a standard ballpark and sampled fans to see if they could definite it, I’d bet 70% of fans would have no idea. I might even be generous with that number. Casuals should be able to recognize his importance to the team given he’s won them like 5 games this year in winning time
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jul 3, 2023 22:33:04 GMT -5
Again, you watch him frequently. But most fans don’t follow defensive metrics. Off the top of your head, how are Austin Hays’s numbers? He’s got better offensive stats… is the defense so far apart? (I genuinely don’t know). Kevin Keirmaier has an OPS+ of 114 and remains an elite CF. Should he be irked? All I’m saying is… if people want to bash fans for not voting, doing it when a guy is hardly a shoe-in seems a bit unfair. I can see arguments for Verdugo, but there is a solid argument against him… and clearly he doesn’t deserve to start ahead of three starters. So the beef is fans didn’t have him, what, top-10? Who cares? Oh I don’t give a crap about the all star game, I’m just saying he’s clearly been this teams best player over the course of the full season and if Sox fans can’t recognize that they’re pretty uneducated! He’s outplayed the teams $300 mill player so it’s not like he’s the best player on a starless team like you seem to be implying. There’s absolutely a face of the franchise. And Verdugo has outplayed him. Last post: this discussion began because Verdugo’s vote tally was seen as a disgrace for the fans. I’d say the fact that he has (potentially) outplayed the $300 million player is not an argument to vote for him as much as a tiny indicator of why many fans might be somewhat checked out when it comes to supporting the team. I don’t think it is a sign Sox fans are inherently unsupportive. I think it is a kind of referendum on this year’s team.
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Post by bosoxnation on Jul 4, 2023 0:10:18 GMT -5
Guys i’m not sure you’re getting the point. What real baseball fan likes the all star game? It’s not about us. It’s about having a player who’s been playing his butt off and killing it for us all season get some love because it certainly means a ton to the players. They get to hang around the best of the best. Pick each others brain and sometimes get even better but it’s once in a lifetime experience. If i’m Verdugo and i see the Sox fans didn’t vote for me at all i have a major problem with that. It shows us to be ungrateful and more demanding and just doesn’t look good from a players perspective. Voting based on homers makes you such a casual. This man is clutch won us a ton of games and is a doubles machine. What he’s doing defensively in his first year in RF is incredible. I’m done now I give up. Maybe it’s Nesns fault for not promoting it all game every game like they should.
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keninten
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Post by keninten on Jul 4, 2023 0:24:10 GMT -5
Again, you watch him frequently. But most fans don’t follow defensive metrics. Off the top of your head, how are Austin Hays’s numbers? He’s got better offensive stats… is the defense so far apart? (I genuinely don’t know). Kevin Keirmaier has an OPS+ of 114 and remains an elite CF. Should he be irked? All I’m saying is… if people want to bash fans for not voting, doing it when a guy is hardly a shoe-in seems a bit unfair. I can see arguments for Verdugo, but there is a solid argument against him… and clearly he doesn’t deserve to start ahead of three starters. So the beef is fans didn’t have him, what, top-10? Who cares? Oh I don’t give a crap about the all star game, I’m just saying he’s clearly been this teams best player over the course of the full season and if Sox fans can’t recognize that they’re pretty uneducated! He’s outplayed the teams $300 mill player so it’s not like he’s the best player on a starless team like you seem to be implying. There’s absolutely a face of the franchise. And Verdugo has outplayed him. If best player includes pitchers, I`d say Bello is the best on the team so far.
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Post by bosoxnation on Jul 4, 2023 2:06:01 GMT -5
Compare the Red Sox right-fielder to the reserves, and he outranks them all in hits (91), doubles (26), and triples (4). He’s second in batting average (.296), OBP (.363), and Win Probability Added (6.8), third-most in runs (53) and WAR (2.7), and has struck out (46) less than all of them by a wide margin.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jul 4, 2023 3:27:09 GMT -5
Compare the Red Sox right-fielder to the reserves, and he outranks them all in hits (91), doubles (26), and triples (4). He’s second in batting average (.296), OBP (.363), and Win Probability Added (6.8), third-most in runs (53) and WAR (2.7), and has struck out (46) less than all of them by a wide margin. First, the voting method for ASG is ludicrous. Second, my non-stat loving Sox fan friends and family absolutely love Alex Verdugo and understand his value to the team. By both eye test and the actual numbers (which allegedly don’t lie) he is a legit star. If his progression continues he, as a still young ballplayer, will make it difficult to keep him off the team going forward, despite this silly selection process. I can live with that.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 4, 2023 6:27:39 GMT -5
Compare the Red Sox right-fielder to the reserves, and he outranks them all in hits (91), doubles (26), and triples (4). He’s second in batting average (.296), OBP (.363), and Win Probability Added (6.8), third-most in runs (53) and WAR (2.7), and has struck out (46) less than all of them by a wide margin. Relax. Judge is injured. Now Trout, too. I suspect Verdugo will be added as a replacement. It's not the first time a deserving guy wasn't put on an all star team. Abd it's not the last time it'll happen. As long as Verdugo doesnt lose his mind about it the way Oil Csn Boyd did in 1986 it'll be alright. As an aside I have no idea why Jansen made the cut, but he did, so I just dont take these things seriously. It's just a glorified exhibition game, one that has lost its luster, particularly with the introduction and then increase of interleague play. There used to be a battle for league superiority. It was a thing. I dont think that's been the case for quite awhile.
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Post by yuchangclan on Jul 4, 2023 10:44:18 GMT -5
Guys i’m not sure you’re getting the point. What real baseball fan likes the all star game? It’s not about us. It’s about having a player who’s been playing his butt off and killing it for us all season get some love because it certainly means a ton to the players. They get to hang around the best of the best. Pick each others brain and sometimes get even better but it’s once in a lifetime experience. If i’m Verdugo and i see the Sox fans didn’t vote for me at all i have a major problem with that. It shows us to be ungrateful and more demanding and just doesn’t look good from a players perspective. Voting based on homers makes you such a casual. This man is clutch won us a ton of games and is a doubles machine. What he’s doing defensively in his first year in RF is incredible. I’m done now I give up. Maybe it’s Nesns fault for not promoting it all game every game like they should. It wasn’t just Sox fans that didn’t vote for Verdugo; It’s the fans of every other team, as well. That’s why Yoshida beat him so significantly in the balloting. Mr. 6 Home Runs and 34 RBI’s is going to need to do more to get noticed going forward. That’s how popularity contests work.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jul 4, 2023 10:52:53 GMT -5
Compare the Red Sox right-fielder to the reserves, and he outranks them all in hits (91), doubles (26), and triples (4). He’s second in batting average (.296), OBP (.363), and Win Probability Added (6.8), third-most in runs (53) and WAR (2.7), and has struck out (46) less than all of them by a wide margin. Relax. Judge is injured. Now Trout, too. I suspect Verdugo will be added as a replacement. It's not the first time a deserving guy wasn't put on an all star team. Abd it's not the last time it'll happen. As long as Verdugo doesnt lose his mind about it the way Oil Csn Boyd did in 1986 it'll be alright. As an aside I have no idea why Jansen made the cut, but he did, so I just dont take these things seriously. It's just a glorified exhibition game, one that has lost its luster, particularly with the introduction and then increase of interleague play. There used to be a battle for league superiority. It was a thing. I dont think that's been the case for quite awhile. The players used to take the ASG seriously, especially the NL. I recall seeing a show about the 1970 game (Pete Rose wiping out Ray Fosse) in which they showed game clips and had Jim Hickman of the Cubs commenting as it went along. It was clear from his commentary that he NL guys were there to win. At one point he said, "So, now we were feeling real good in that National League dugout," as the footage showed the NL players jumping around, clapping their hands and pumping their fists because their team had just scored a big run.
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