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Post by chaimtime on Aug 5, 2023 12:03:05 GMT -5
Eh, Bloom built a team that almost made it to the World Series despite $60 million being allocated to Dustin Pedroia, David Price, and Chris Sale with no cheap talent to offset it. If they decide to go way over then yeah, they’ll have to manage the payroll very carefully but they have room to add a lot of money, especially with all the talent they still have in the pipeline. “Built.” I forgot that Kiké Hernandez, Alex Verdugo, Hunter Renfroe, Kyle Schwarber, Christian Arroyo, Nick Pivetta, and Garrett Whitlock just appeared in Fenway one day
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Post by Guidas on Aug 5, 2023 12:08:09 GMT -5
I forgot that Kiké Hernandez, Alex Verdugo, Hunter Renfroe, Kyle Schwarber, Christian Arroyo, Nick Pivetta, and Garrett Whitlock just appeared in Fenway one day That would be 27% of the 26 man roster.
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Post by chaimtime on Aug 5, 2023 12:13:21 GMT -5
The Sox are going to give Paxton the QO. If he walks, they get a pick, and if he takes it, having a guy like that on a one-year deal is great. In terms of the lineup, the big question to me is just whether or not they keep Turner. If they don't, Yoshida can be the primary DH and the 4th/5th OF, but that means you need to identify a backup corner infielder, ideally a RHH. Certainly a few ways to make it work, but I think Turner could be the linchpin. The thing about offering Paxton a QO is that I don't think it's a great idea to go into 2024 with ~$50 million allocated toward him and Chris Sale. We already have one old, oft-injured, highly paid starting pitcher, 2 would be pushing it. And I think he is one of those guys that would seriously consider accepting it. Thats fair, but if they’re planning to go over the tax anyway it’s not that bad. It’s just one year, if it’s a disaster then you’ve got $50 million to spend on someone else the next year.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 5, 2023 12:17:30 GMT -5
1/50 for Sale + Paxton sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
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Post by manfred on Aug 5, 2023 12:25:40 GMT -5
I forgot that Kiké Hernandez, Alex Verdugo, Hunter Renfroe, Kyle Schwarber, Christian Arroyo, Nick Pivetta, and Garrett Whitlock just appeared in Fenway one day I remember thinking “if only we’d had an OF as strong as Kiké, Verdugo, and Refroe a few years ago!” He added nice players. But “built” when you inherit your core AND your top starters AND your closer is a little strong. Perhaps “fine tuned”?
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Post by chaimtime on Aug 5, 2023 12:43:09 GMT -5
I forgot that Kiké Hernandez, Alex Verdugo, Hunter Renfroe, Kyle Schwarber, Christian Arroyo, Nick Pivetta, and Garrett Whitlock just appeared in Fenway one day That would be 27% of the 26 man roster. Is your take that 27% of the 26 man roster isn’t a substantial part of the team? I don’t think I’d agree with that. And those are really just the impact players who come to mind, not everyone he added. Regardless, my point is that they’ve had an enormous amount of money tied up in unproductive contracts and have had to work around that for years at this point. That money is all finally off the books soon, so they should have more room to be aggressive.
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Post by chaimtime on Aug 5, 2023 12:54:01 GMT -5
I forgot that Kiké Hernandez, Alex Verdugo, Hunter Renfroe, Kyle Schwarber, Christian Arroyo, Nick Pivetta, and Garrett Whitlock just appeared in Fenway one day I remember thinking “if only we’d had an OF as strong as Kiké, Verdugo, and Refroe a few years ago!” He added nice players. But “built” when you inherit your core AND your top starters AND your closer is a little strong. Perhaps “fine tuned”? That same core went 108-114 over the preceding two years, and had Mookie Betts for 3/4 of those games. Just look at the angels, it doesn’t matter how good the core is if a) a key member of the core has a bad year and b) the rest of the team stinks.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 5, 2023 13:02:49 GMT -5
That would be 27% of the 26 man roster. Is your take that 27% of the 26 man roster isn’t a substantial part of the team? I don’t think I’d agree with that. And those are really just the impact players who come to mind, not everyone he added. Regardless, my point is that they’ve had an enormous amount of money tied up in unproductive contracts and have had to work around that for years at this point. That money is all finally off the books soon, so they should have more room to be aggressive. No, my take is that he augmented the current roster (74%) with the players you mentioned, rather than built it. The 2022 and this year's teams are more his creation or build than 2021 or 2020. Also the bolded point, you're new but we were told for the last two years leading up to this winter that the 2022 off-season was when we'd see Mr. Bloom extert his genius and finally field a perennial playoff team because so much money was coming off the books. We don't truly know if ownership has put the brakes on going over the tax, but that they entered the off-season with another over-the-tax penalty and the inflated free agent market - which has traditionally occurred after a CBA is signed (plus the owners were flush with an additional $100M+ each that they conveniently didn't announce until after the CBA was completed) - led to a little less dazzling display of genius. His big coup has been Yoshida - and full accolades for that pick-up when many in the league apparently thought he was a 4th OF. They also extended Devers, which may or may not have been a good idea, but it did show a willingness to retain at least one star. Of course, if this team slides into the playoffs, then they can make the claim that the perennial team is here(!). If not, however, then it again is "Oh yeah! Wait til you see the team he puts together in 2024!...or 2025!...or 2026!" I don't know how much more you want cleared off the books before we can see his genius assert itself, but all but one or two the PoBOs of perennial playoff teams deal with one or more crap contracts. It's a risk/reward sunk cost that's become part of the landscape, and for many teams, the cost of repeatedly making the playoffs.
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Post by jmei on Aug 5, 2023 13:21:09 GMT -5
This is not the thread to revisit the front office or its responsibility for the 2022 team. Please stay on topic. Thanks.
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on Aug 5, 2023 13:51:13 GMT -5
They probably have to do something to break up the extreme LH of this lineup so either Duran or Doogie is traded for a starting pitcher and they sign a right handed power bat (or bring back Duvall).
Lineup would probably be something like:
Duran (LF) Story(2B) Devers (3B) Casas (1B) Yoshida(DH) Whoever is in RF Wong (C) Rafaela (CF) Urias (2B) Tentatively.
Of course this hinges on Ceddane showing he's ready next spring. I don't want to really move Yoshi or Casas down to break up the 4 Right Handers at the bottom of the lineup because I think those guys can handle lefties well.
Rafeala might be better in the 9 hole because at least a few times a game you will get some real speed up together as the lineup turns over to be handled to the big hitters.
Duran's only spot really is LF long term, his arm is too weak and would get severely over-exposed in RF.
Even if they kept Verdugo in RF, that's a pretty strong albeit heavily LH lineup. I guess you could sub Refsnyder on the days you face especially tough lefties in RF
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Post by ematz1423 on Aug 5, 2023 18:57:34 GMT -5
I think next years lineup is going to be much the same as we'll see at the tailend of this year once story takes SS. I really have no faith in Bloom making a big trade. I think he keeps the lineup the same maybe adds a platoon type OF, maybe just brings Duvall back and uses his money to sure up the pitching. Which I wouldn't mind.
Keep the farm strong and use $ to bring in any talent this year. We'll see though, I kind of think this sox team is teetering on the edge of being an excellent perennial contender and a mediocre 3rd WC team. A lot of the talent needed to be a really good team is already here, it just needs to bolstered with the correct moves.
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Aug 5, 2023 20:55:27 GMT -5
Somewhat tangential, but still related. Reading through this thread, I see a lot of Verdugo assumptions for next year in right field, including my own. After today's situation, it seems far more likely than not that he will be traded this off-season. Ceddeanne in right next year, or do we go out of the organization?
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Aug 5, 2023 21:14:00 GMT -5
Somewhat tangential, but still related. Reading through this thread, I see a lot of Verdugo assumptions for next year in right field, including my own. After today's situation, it seems far more likely than not that he will be traded this off-season. Ceddeanne in right next year, or do we go out of the organization? It sucks because not long ago we had NO centerfielder, but Ceddanne is wasted in Right. He has to play center and we have to figure out something else for Right.
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Aug 5, 2023 21:16:05 GMT -5
Somewhat tangential, but still related. Reading through this thread, I see a lot of Verdugo assumptions for next year in right field, including my own. After today's situation, it seems far more likely than not that he will be traded this off-season. Ceddeanne in right next year, or do we go out of the organization? It sucks because not long ago we had NO centerfielder, but Ceddanne is wasted in Right. He has to play center and we have to figure out something else for Right. Not sure I agree. Fenway right field is plenty spacious to justify a center fielder in it. Especially one with a good arm, as well. Really enjoyed the years of JBJ and Mookie in center and right.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 5, 2023 22:22:32 GMT -5
It sucks because not long ago we had NO centerfielder, but Ceddanne is wasted in Right. He has to play center and we have to figure out something else for Right. Not sure I agree. Fenway right field is plenty spacious to justify a center fielder in it. Especially one with a good arm, as well. Really enjoyed the years of JBJ and Mookie in center and right. I think as great an OF as Betts was and is, JBJ was considered the more incredible defensive outfielder and he wound up in CF instead of Betts. Rafaela is going to wind up in CF. Duvall or somebody else will wind up in RF. The Sox also play 81 games in the road where RF is not that highly a skilled position. I doubt that the Sox jerk Duran and Rafaela around the while season where Duran is in CF at home and LF on the road and where Rafaela is RF at home and CF on the road. Theyll leave these guys in one spot and Rafaela is simply a better CF than Duran and probably most everybody else too. He'll be in CF.
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Aug 5, 2023 22:30:32 GMT -5
Not sure I agree. Fenway right field is plenty spacious to justify a center fielder in it. Especially one with a good arm, as well. Really enjoyed the years of JBJ and Mookie in center and right. I think as great an OF as Betts was and is, JBJ was considered the more incredible defensive outfielder and he wound up in CF instead of Betts. Rafaela is going to wind up in CF. Duvall or somebody else will wind up in RF. The Sox also play 81 games in the road where RF is not that highly a skilled position. I doubt that the Sox jerk Duran and Rafaela around the while season where Duran is in CF at home and LF on the road and where Rafaela is RF at home and CF on the road. Theyll leave these guys in one spot and Rafaela is simply a better CF than Duran and probably most everybody else too. He'll be in CF. So Duran in left, Rafaela in Center, Acquisition in right? Left for Duran is a major waste of his speed, but I don't love his arm for right either.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 5, 2023 22:40:54 GMT -5
I think as great an OF as Betts was and is, JBJ was considered the more incredible defensive outfielder and he wound up in CF instead of Betts. Rafaela is going to wind up in CF. Duvall or somebody else will wind up in RF. The Sox also play 81 games in the road where RF is not that highly a skilled position. I doubt that the Sox jerk Duran and Rafaela around the while season where Duran is in CF at home and LF on the road and where Rafaela is RF at home and CF on the road. Theyll leave these guys in one spot and Rafaela is simply a better CF than Duran and probably most everybody else too. He'll be in CF. So Duran in left, Rafaela in Center, Acquisition in right? Left for Duran is a major waste of his speed, but I don't love his arm for right either. That's the dilemna but there are LFs for him to roam elsewhere. Besides Rafaela will get to about everything in CF. I think bringing back Duvall is a strong possibilty. I can see 2 and 20 getting him back. Teoscar Hernandez is a possibility, somebody yet to be considered, etc.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 5, 2023 23:15:03 GMT -5
I would actually be pretty happy if we prioritized spending money on starting pitching, don’t make a big trade and don’t mess with the lineup too much. Wait until the season starts to see if there is a natural fit or need and then make a trade if need be.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Aug 6, 2023 2:51:21 GMT -5
In reference to whether it would make sense to play Duran in CF and Rafaela in RF, the most recent similar Red Sox situation would be JBJ (obviously a better defender than Duran) and Mookie. Below are the putouts and assists per 9 innings from 2016-2019 (4 seasons they consistently played together):
Average CF: 2.4 / 0.048 Average RF: 1.96 / 0.059 JBJ: 2.3 / 0.067 Mookie: 2.25 / 0.062
Together their 2.55 putouts and 0.129 assists led to 0.212 additional outs per 9 innings over the 4 year stretch.
(I should have rounded to the thousandths for putouts, but the difference would not be significant)
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Post by carmenfanzone on Aug 6, 2023 21:34:27 GMT -5
Somewhat tangential, but still related. Reading through this thread, I see a lot of Verdugo assumptions for next year in right field, including my own. After today's situation, it seems far more likely than not that he will be traded this off-season. Ceddeanne in right next year, or do we go out of the organization? Agree that Cora and Vertigo do not seem to get along and that at least one of the two will likely be gone. Hopefully, they will find a way to get more power on the team next year whether it is from Vertigo's replacement or by Story and Arias replacing Kiké and Arroyo.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Aug 7, 2023 11:10:35 GMT -5
Facing a couple realities, Verdugo is more likely traded than not and Duran is best suited for left field, leads me to the following at this point.
Casas 1B Urias 2B Story SS Devers 3B
This infield should provide ample power and if Raffy and Tristan are ready to stay more focused in the field, should be far superior defensively.
Duran LF Rafaela CF T,B.D. RF
Not all fast outfielders are fit for CF. We have one that is not and one on the way who should be among the best. Sox should have enough salary to sign a FA outfielder that is good enough on defense to feel good about in RF, even if it ends up being a bottom 3rd of the order bat.
Wong C McQiure C
Straight forward.
Yoshida DH
I'd rather see Turner back and Masa in left, but Duran needs to play LF and Masa is not going to be traded.
Refsnyder and a couple multi position reserves T.B.D. for the bench. I wish Blaze Jordan was a year closer as his 1B/3B/DH RH bat profile would fit perfect.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 7, 2023 18:16:17 GMT -5
Facing a couple realities, Verdugo is more likely traded than not and Duran is best suited for left field, leads me to the following at this point. Casas 1B Urias 2B Story SS Devers 3B This infield should provide ample power and if Raffy and Tristan are ready to stay more focused in the field, should be far superior defensively. Duran LF Rafaela CF T,B.D. RF Not all fast outfielders are fit for CF. We have one that is not and one on the way who should be among the best. Sox should have enough salary to sign a FA outfielder that is good enough on defense to feel good about in RF, even if it ends up being a bottom 3rd of the order bat. Wong C McQiure C Straight forward. Yoshida DH I'd rather see Turner back and Masa in left, but Duran needs to play LF and Masa is not going to be traded. Refsnyder and a couple multi position reserves T.B.D. for the bench. I wish Blaze Jordan was a year closer as his 1B/3B/DH RH bat profile would fit perfect. Rickey Henderson, Tim Raines, and willie Wilson all played more LF than CF. I get they didnt play half their games in a short LF. But short LF or not Duran would still cover far more ground than Yodhida or an average LF playing half his games at Fenway. I'm sure there are a lot of other games his speed will be a bigger impact in LF on the road. They do need to have a good defensive OF in RF. The Sox either use CF types like a Betts on RF or simply good OF. Duvall could fit the profile. It wont be Verdugo in 2024, or at least I wouldnt think so.
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Post by notstarboard on Aug 7, 2023 21:42:19 GMT -5
Just to throw this out there, I don't think Duran should be ruled out for RF. His arm does not pass the eye test for me, but I think it's mostly because of his strange throwing motion. His Statcast arm strength numbers aren't nearly as bad as you'd think.
Notable 2023 Arm Strengths among RF: Mookie Betts: 87.6 mph Kyle Tucker: 87.4 mph George Springer: 87.0 mph Manuel Margot: 86.5 mph Josh Lowe: 86.1 mph
Duran's been at 86.9 mph in CF this year. He definitely would be below average in RF - average is 91.1 mph - but his range could theoretically help him make up for it.
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Post by bosoxnation on Aug 8, 2023 1:14:08 GMT -5
Just to throw this out there, I don't think Duran should be ruled out for RF. His arm does not pass the eye test for me, but I think it's mostly because of his strange throwing motion. His Statcast arm strength numbers aren't nearly as bad as you'd think. Notable 2023 Arm Strengths among RF: Mookie Betts: 87.6 mph Kyle Tucker: 87.4 mph George Springer: 87.0 mph Manuel Margot: 86.5 mph Josh Lowe: 86.1 mph Duran's been at 86.9 mph in CF this year. He definitely would be below average in RF - average is 91.1 mph - but his range could theoretically help him make up for it. Every day that goes by I feel like Dugie is out. Duran to RF, lRafaela to CF. I think last year we spent on bats and bullpen this year we’re going to sign a starter or 2. That being said I want Matt Chapman 😂
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 8, 2023 9:00:10 GMT -5
Just to throw this out there, I don't think Duran should be ruled out for RF. His arm does not pass the eye test for me, but I think it's mostly because of his strange throwing motion. His Statcast arm strength numbers aren't nearly as bad as you'd think. Notable 2023 Arm Strengths among RF: Mookie Betts: 87.6 mph Kyle Tucker: 87.4 mph George Springer: 87.0 mph Manuel Margot: 86.5 mph Josh Lowe: 86.1 mph Duran's been at 86.9 mph in CF this year. He definitely would be below average in RF - average is 91.1 mph - but his range could theoretically help him make up for it. Getting Duran out of CF should be of interest too. It's a big weakness for the Sox relative to other teams.
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