SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,692
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 25, 2023 12:20:55 GMT -5
I'll go with:
Beltre Mauer Sheffield Wagner Utley Helton A Jones
|
|
|
Post by benogliviesbrother on Dec 25, 2023 12:27:40 GMT -5
No PED guys. No Alex, no Manny no AndyFTFY
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Dec 25, 2023 23:32:41 GMT -5
Beltre Helton Andruw Jones Beltrán Mauer Manny ARod Utley (probably most on the fence) Wagner
|
|
|
Post by Jimmy on Dec 26, 2023 1:54:11 GMT -5
Carlos Beltran is 9th All-Time in CF JAWS, right at the CF HOF average for WAR and JAWS, and has a 1.021 postseason OPS in 65G. I’m surprised that he’s not considered a shoo in.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Dec 28, 2023 8:07:18 GMT -5
I'd go with; Beltre Wagner Helton Jones Mauer Utley I would wait a year on Beltran I want to think about Abreu a little more If Bonds and Clemens arent in then none of the obvious steroid guys should be in. If they were in then I'd vote in Sheffield, Manny, and A-Rod and would have voted for Palmeiro, Sosa, and McGwire a long time ago. What makes Sheffield a steroid guy? Your feeling?
|
|
|
Post by fenwaydouble on Dec 28, 2023 8:34:51 GMT -5
www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2023/12/17/gary-sheffield-deserves-baseball-hall-of-fame/71944010007/I'm a hardliner when it comes to keeping confirmed PED users out of the HOF and always assumed that Gary Sheffield was one of them. But this story in USA Today has me rethinking that. I'm wondering what others who don't want users in the HOF think about it. Sheffield (obviously not a distinterested party in the matter) and Victor Conte (obviously a scumbag, but I'm not sure why he'd have reason to lie for Sheffield) make a compelling case that Sheffield did not knowingly use and that his unknowing usage was extremely short-lived. Very annoying how Nightengale says three times in that piece that Sheffield is the best hitter on the ballot/best RHH of his generation when Manny's numbers are very clearly better than his. -
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Dec 28, 2023 9:19:28 GMT -5
I'd go with; Beltre Wagner Helton Jones Mauer Utley I would wait a year on Beltran I want to think about Abreu a little more If Bonds and Clemens arent in then none of the obvious steroid guys should be in. If they were in then I'd vote in Sheffield, Manny, and A-Rod and would have voted for Palmeiro, Sosa, and McGwire a long time ago. What makes Sheffield a steroid guy? Your feeling? He admitted to using The Cream, though he said that he was led to believe it was basically the same as a cortisone shot as he was recovering from surgery. I don't actually care and I think his defense is a bigger problem with his Hall case than the steroids. I'd probably have him ahead of Sosa and McGwire on merits, though. Nightengale's claim that he's the best right-handed hitter on a ballot with Ramirez and Rodriguez is crazypants.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Dec 28, 2023 9:30:40 GMT -5
www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2023/12/17/gary-sheffield-deserves-baseball-hall-of-fame/71944010007/I'm a hardliner when it comes to keeping confirmed PED users out of the HOF and always assumed that Gary Sheffield was one of them. But this story in USA Today has me rethinking that. I'm wondering what others who don't want users in the HOF think about it. Sheffield (obviously not a distinterested party in the matter) and Victor Conte (obviously a scumbag, but I'm not sure why he'd have reason to lie for Sheffield) make a compelling case that Sheffield did not knowingly use and that his unknowing usage was extremely short-lived. Very annoying how Nightengale says three times in that piece that Sheffield is the best hitter on the ballot/best RHH of his generation when Manny's numbers are very clearly better than his. - Where is Peter Gammons when you need him?* *I am of course referring to when Gammons famously ripped apart Michael Felger for calling Manny Ramirez the best RHH when Albert Pujols was around. Sheffield is a borderline case for me. He was very good for a long while, but he is behind many others on the ballot. Which is pretty much what his perception during his career.
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,692
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 28, 2023 9:41:47 GMT -5
I'd go with; Beltre Wagner Helton Jones Mauer Utley I would wait a year on Beltran I want to think about Abreu a little more If Bonds and Clemens arent in then none of the obvious steroid guys should be in. If they were in then I'd vote in Sheffield, Manny, and A-Rod and would have voted for Palmeiro, Sosa, and McGwire a long time ago. What makes Sheffield a steroid guy? Your feeling? You must have grabbed an older post or bypassed my most recent one. I changed my mind on Sheffield. Not that a mock vote by me means anything but he came off as believable to me, and he has my so unimportant vote for the HOF A-Rod, Sosa, McGuire, Manny, and Palmeoro don't, not unless the establish some kind of thing that "honors" them but "exposes' them for lack of a better word. The plaque would have to mention what they dd that helped them get their overwhelming numbers. And of course that's not perfect either given the real possibility we already have "cheaters" already nicely enshrined in the HOF. I'm just not enthused to vote for guys who enhanced their numbers, at times, against those who actually stayed clean as not everybody cheated. I mean how should a clean Mike Greenwell feel about losing out on the 1988 MVP award to a guy like Canseco who was all steroids? Or the more marginal players who got ripped apart by the cheaters who had the unfair edge, costing them a chance to have longer and more lucrative careers? I really struggle to evaluate the 1990s and am glad I dont really have a vote. I guess it would be something along the same lines for Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson who would otherwise obviously be hall of famers.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Dec 28, 2023 10:40:38 GMT -5
What makes Sheffield a steroid guy? Your feeling? He admitted to using The Cream, though he said that he was led to believe it was basically the same as a cortisone shot as he was recovering from surgery. I don't actually care and I think his defense is a bigger problem with his Hall case than the steroids. I'd probably have him ahead of Sosa and McGwire on merits, though. Nightengale's claim that he's the best right-handed hitter on a ballot with Ramirez and Rodriguez is crazypants. Yea the claim is ridiculous
|
|
|
Post by keninten on Dec 28, 2023 11:56:58 GMT -5
My gripe with Sheffield was when he was in Milwaukee and he said he wasn`t trying so the Brewers would trade him. I can`t find a reference to this. Does anyone remember this happening?
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Dec 28, 2023 12:27:17 GMT -5
My gripe with Sheffield was when he was in Milwaukee and he said he wasn`t trying so the Brewers would trade him. I can`t find a reference to this. Does anyone remember this happening? I don’t remember that particular thing, but my general feeling about Sheffield is he was a cancer. Guy played for, what, eight teams? And he was bad in the post-season. He was an elite hitter, but I don’t think of him as an all-time great. I have talked myself into two new HOFers: Beltre and Mauer. That’s it. Small Hall, man.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Dec 28, 2023 12:28:37 GMT -5
Gary Sheffield was 22 when the Brewers traded him. Not sure that being immature when he was barely old enough to legally drink alcohol should be a consideration, especially considering that he grew out of it.
|
|
|
Post by benogliviesbrother on Dec 28, 2023 21:22:18 GMT -5
My gripe with Sheffield was when he was in Milwaukee and he said he wasn`t trying so the Brewers would trade him. I can`t find a reference to this. Does anyone remember this happening? Yes.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Dec 28, 2023 23:12:32 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by soxfaninnj on Dec 29, 2023 0:10:12 GMT -5
My gripe with Sheffield was when he was in Milwaukee and he said he wasn`t trying so the Brewers would trade him. I can`t find a reference to this. Does anyone remember this happening? I remember this, I remember people saying he was making errors on purpose to force a trade.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Dec 29, 2023 9:18:06 GMT -5
My gripe with Sheffield was when he was in Milwaukee and he said he wasn`t trying so the Brewers would trade him. I can`t find a reference to this. Does anyone remember this happening? I remember this, I remember people saying he was making errors on purpose to force a trade. I believe it was all rumors and supposition. His error issues started before 1992 and they continued in San Diego and Florida. The Marlins moved him off third after made 19 errors for them in 66 games (which was worse than anything in Milwaukee).
|
|
|
Post by gunboat82 on Dec 29, 2023 11:17:18 GMT -5
www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-06-09-sp-102-story.htmlFrom the article: Sheffield, describing his torment during six years in the Milwaukee Brewer organization, believes that he would have been treated differently in Milwaukee if he was white. He accuses Harry Dalton, the former general manager, of spying on him. He believes that owner Bud Selig betrayed him. He condemns veterans Paul Molitor, Robin Yount and Jim Gantner for their lack of leadership. And he can’t understand why he lost his starting shortstop job to Billy Spiers. “The Brewers brought out the hate in me. . . . I was a crazy man,” Sheffield said. “I hated (Dalton) so much that I wanted to hurt the man. I hated everything about that place. I didn’t even want to come to the ballpark. If I missed a ball or something, so what? “If the official scorer gave me an error that I didn’t think was an error, I’d say, ‘OK, here’s a real error,’ and I’d throw the next ball into the stands on purpose. I did it all.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Dec 29, 2023 13:09:24 GMT -5
Did he keep laughing balls into the stands in San Diego and Miami on purpose? The error issue didn’t get better.
|
|
|
Post by soxfaninnj on Dec 29, 2023 18:01:40 GMT -5
I remember this, I remember people saying he was making errors on purpose to force a trade. I believe it was all rumors and supposition. His error issues started before 1992 and they continued in San Diego and Florida. The Marlins moved him off third after made 19 errors for them in 66 games (which was worse than anything in Milwaukee). I was super young listening to Warner wolf on cbs2 in New York saying this so who knows how much of it is true and how much of it is nonsense?
|
|
mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,799
|
Post by mobaz on Jan 9, 2024 12:36:17 GMT -5
Globe ballots released today, so good time to check in. Thibbs tracker has 35% of ballots in.
Beltre looks like an obvious first-ballot, with 98% so far. Mauer is at 83%, Helton 81% (but net zero gains from last year when he ended at 72%).
Wagner +5 (he was 27 short last year), Sheffield +9 (78 short LY, it's his last year of eligibility), Beltran +12 (111 short LY). Utley and Wright might be only other 1st year guys to remain on the ballot.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 9, 2024 15:01:10 GMT -5
I am genuinely interested in how many of the no votes on Beltran are based on the trashcan scandal and how many legitimately believe he's a tad short on merit. I disagree with the people who think he wasn't good enough, but I also don't think he was clearly a better player than, say, Scott Rolen, who took nearly a decade.
|
|
|
Post by jawnvalentin on Jan 10, 2024 10:06:37 GMT -5
I am genuinely interested in how many of the no votes on Beltran are based on the trashcan scandal and how many legitimately believe he's a tad short on merit. I disagree with the people who think he wasn't good enough, but I also don't think he was clearly a better player than, say, Scott Rolen, who took nearly a decade. CF are held to incredibly high standards in HOF voting. Bernie Williams should've sailed in IMO (4 titles, career .297/.381/.477 splits, 125 career OPS+) and was off the ballot in a blink. Carlos Beltran is one of three CF ever with 1200+ runs, 1200+ RBI and 2500+ hits, along with Ken Griffey Jr and Willie Mays. Unless it's all about the trash can scandal, he should be a shoo-in.
|
|
|
Post by orion09 on Jan 10, 2024 10:17:18 GMT -5
I remember that, around the time he retired, there was an article surveying a number of managers and players around the game, who all had him pegged as a no-doubt first ballot Hall of Famer. I was surprised at the time, but once you dig into the statistics it makes sense. He’s right at the average JAWS for HoF CFers, and then there’s this tidbit: Plus he’s one of five players ever to make the 500 2B/400 HR/300 SB club, along with ARod, Bonds, Andre Dawson, and Willie Mays. www.mlb.com/news/carlos-beltran-hall-of-fame-case In my mind, if not for the trashcan stuff, he’s a first ballot HoFer.
|
|
mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,799
|
Post by mobaz on Jan 10, 2024 10:36:22 GMT -5
I remember that, around the time he retired, there was an article surveying a number of managers and players around the game, who all had him pegged as a no-doubt first ballot Hall of Famer. I was surprised at the time, but once you dig into the statistics it makes sense. He’s right at the average JAWS for HoF CFers, and then there’s this tidbit: Plus he’s one of five players ever to make the 500 2B/400 HR/300 SB club, along with ARod, Bonds, Andre Dawson, and Willie Mays. www.mlb.com/news/carlos-beltran-hall-of-fame-case In my mind, if not for the trashcan stuff, he’s a first ballot HoFer. He also has postseason heroics, which people love!
|
|
|