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Post by kwodes on Jan 19, 2024 16:36:13 GMT -5
Did anyone see that Tony Masserotti ONLY voted for Arod and Manny?
1) how does he maintain any credibility? 2) does he fully rely on being a contrarian and giving hot takes to maintain relevance? 3) why does he even have a HoF vote?
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Post by iakovos11 on Jan 19, 2024 16:40:09 GMT -5
I don't really care that much about HOF arguments - I just don't have the brain space to worry about this stuff.
BUT - how the hell does Toney "effing" Masserotti have a vote? Maybe that's why I just don't care that much.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jan 19, 2024 16:43:00 GMT -5
Did anyone see that Tony Masserotti ONLY voted for Arod and Manny? 1) how does he maintain any credibility?2) does he fully rely on being a contrarian and giving hot takes to maintain relevance? 3) why does he even have a HoF vote? Who says that he has any credibility? I certainly don't think he has any and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one on this board and/or in Red Sox Nation. The guys a troll.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 19, 2024 17:22:23 GMT -5
Did anyone see that Tony Masserotti ONLY voted for Arod and Manny? 1) how does he maintain any credibility? 2) does he fully rely on being a contrarian and giving hot takes to maintain relevance? 3) why does he even have a HoF vote? 1) he doesn't 2) yes 3) the bbwaa criteria is basically "a human with a pulse covering a team for longer than 10 years"
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 20, 2024 8:11:30 GMT -5
The funny thing is that if he'd included Beltre with those two it would be a defensible small-Hall ballot. Only defense for leaving Beltre off, though, is if someone thinks there are 11+ guys deserving and decides to vote strategically.
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Post by bluechip on Jan 20, 2024 9:49:53 GMT -5
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Post by bluechip on Jan 23, 2024 18:21:38 GMT -5
Three get in: Helton, Mauer and Beltré. All deserving in my opinion. Congratulations to them.
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Post by soxfaninnj on Jan 23, 2024 18:33:02 GMT -5
No Sheffield thankfully
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 23, 2024 18:39:16 GMT -5
Did anyone see that Tony Masserotti ONLY voted for Arod and Manny? 1) how does he maintain any credibility? 2) does he fully rely on being a contrarian and giving hot takes to maintain relevance? 3) why does he even have a HoF vote? Not really defending Mazz, but I can see this as a protest vote to the other writers. I'm sure if Beltre needed his vote to get in, he'd include him. He just thinks those 2 guys are being unfairly excluded. That would be my guess since that's the only logical explanation. I personally wouldn't vote in Manny. I believe the "roid guys" should be in because baseball turned a blind eye and basically encouraged it. Manny I say no because he continued to get caught using them after the crack down. But if he says anything other than a protest and mentions something about winning a ring then he should lose his credentials.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 23, 2024 19:28:47 GMT -5
That's a strange narrative. Beltre is worthy on the basis of his offense alone. Throw in the glove and he's "the elite of the elite" and then some. The idea that the honor is to be reserved for some pantheon of baseball gods that he and others get to decide is trashed completely by the many marginal cases who've been enshrined. It would be interesting to find out when Ballou got sold that idea, by who, and why he bought into it. It has no basis in reality.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jan 23, 2024 19:42:54 GMT -5
Two surprises for me.
Based on the tracker, I thought Billy Wagner had way more than a 50-50 chance and was surprised when the HOF guy said he was done after announcing the three who did make it. Those who didn't disclose their ballots in advance must have been unimpressed by his candidacy because he seemed to have a cushion.
I was surprised when the HOF guy was listing Beltre's accomplishments and said he made four AS teams. I mean the guy was a beast with his 3,000/400 and great glove. I would have thought he made a lot more AS teams than that.
But all in all, it was an interesting election.
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Post by bluechip on Jan 23, 2024 20:09:28 GMT -5
Two surprises for me. Based on the tracker, I thought Billy Wagner had way more than a 50-50 chance and was surprised when the HOF guy said he was done after announcing the three who did make it. Those who didn't disclose their ballots in advance must have been unimpressed by his candidacy because he seemed to have a cushion. I was surprised when the HOF guy was listing Beltre's accomplishments and said he made four AS teams. I mean the guy was a beast with his 3,000/400 and great glove. I would have thought he made a lot more AS teams than that. But all in all, it was an interesting election. Very under appreciated during his time. He had the one breakout season in LA during his walk year then signed that massive contract with Seattle. In Seattle he frankly wasn’t outstanding offensively (he was above average some years below others, but nothing eye catching; especially the raw numbers unadjusted for park). Much of his WAR in Seattle came from his defense. He did not make his first all star team until Boston at age 31. He probably deserved more all star games during his time in Texas.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,410
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Post by radiohix on Jan 24, 2024 4:36:00 GMT -5
If Ichiro doesn’t get the unanimous vote next year, they should cancel the whole process.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 24, 2024 8:48:59 GMT -5
Two surprises for me. Based on the tracker, I thought Billy Wagner had way more than a 50-50 chance and was surprised when the HOF guy said he was done after announcing the three who did make it. Those who didn't disclose their ballots in advance must have been unimpressed by his candidacy because he seemed to have a cushion. I was surprised when the HOF guy was listing Beltre's accomplishments and said he made four AS teams. I mean the guy was a beast with his 3,000/400 and great glove. I would have thought he made a lot more AS teams than that. But all in all, it was an interesting election. Very under appreciated during his time. He had the one breakout season in LA during his walk year then signed that massive contract with Seattle. In Seattle he frankly wasn’t outstanding offensively (he was above average some years below others, but nothing eye catching; especially the raw numbers unadjusted for park). Much of his WAR in Seattle came from his defense. He did not make his first all star team until Boston at age 31. He probably deserved more all star games during his time in Texas. Also an especially great second-half player, .295/.350/.509 after the All-Star break in his career (compared to .279/.330/.454 in the 1st half). Though it's tough to look at even his splits in 2004 and 2013 and figure out how the dude wasn't an All-Star. Anyway, Billy Wagner was a really good closer, and a Hall that includes Bruce Sutter and Trevor Hoffman probably has a place for Wagner. But it's wild to me how much love closers have gotten relative to their starting pitcher contemporaries. Like, Johan Santana's career had three times Wagner's innings, but his career is too short and he falls off the ballot in one year? Just nuts to me.
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Post by jawnvalentin on Jan 24, 2024 9:46:31 GMT -5
Could not agree more on Johan Santana and Billy Wagner. Very strange mental gymnastics they've engaged in relative to starters vs. relievers.
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Post by manfred on Jan 24, 2024 9:55:30 GMT -5
I am 100% opposed to Wagner getting in. The only closers who should get in are the absolute game changers. Saves are the worst counting stat of all… I accept Rivera and Eck. Maybe Goose (the days when relievers threw the kind of innings that 5th starters throw now).
But I’m also 100% opposed to Santana. He’d be getting the Koufax treatment, but he was not Koufax. I don’t think it is unfair to hold breaking down early against a guy. Durability and longevity are big parts of making a legend.
Small Hall! I actually love this year’s class. Deserving guys and no excess. (Well, I’m a bit torn on Helton, but I ain’t bothered).
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 24, 2024 10:14:41 GMT -5
I am 100% opposed to Wagner getting in. The only closers who should get in are the absolute game changers. Saves are the worst counting stat of all… I accept Rivera and Eck. Maybe Goose (the days when relievers threw the kind of innings that 5th starters throw now). But I’m also 100% opposed to Santana. He’d be getting the Koufax treatment, but he was not Koufax. I don’t think it is unfair to hold breaking down early against a guy. Durability and longevity are big parts of making a legend. Small Hall! I actually love this year’s class. Deserving guys and no excess. (Well, I’m a bit torn on Helton, but I ain’t bothered). Basically agree with all this though I’d put the no doubter category steroid/asterisk guys in too (Manny, A-Rod, Beltran) and I also like Andrew Jones.
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Post by jawnvalentin on Jan 24, 2024 11:41:38 GMT -5
Joe Mauer wasn't a great player for very much longer (if at all) than Johan Santana was. I'd be a flat no on Helton. I don't see what makes him better than Carlos Delgado or Lance Berkman other than he got to play home games in Coors Field.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 24, 2024 12:00:57 GMT -5
Joe Mauer wasn't a great player for very much longer (if at all) than Johan Santana was. I'd be a flat no on Helton. I don't see what makes him better than Carlos Delgado or Lance Berkman other than he got to play home games in Coors Field.This, but as an argument for why Berkman and Delgado should have gotten in. Berkman, in particular, had six 6+ WAR seasons and a career wRC+ higher than Big Papi's (144 vs. 140). Also a higher WAR total, fwiw. His career was a little on the short side, but still he had only 100 fewer PAs than Mauer.
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Post by notstarboard on Jan 24, 2024 12:04:06 GMT -5
Joe Mauer wasn't a great player for very much longer (if at all) than Johan Santana was. I'd be a flat no on Helton. I don't see what makes him better than Carlos Delgado or Lance Berkman other than he got to play home games in Coors Field. Joe Mauer was also a catcher. The physical toll of the position makes it a lot harder to play at a high level late into your career.
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Post by bluechip on Jan 24, 2024 12:12:53 GMT -5
Joe Mauer wasn't a great player for very much longer (if at all) than Johan Santana was. I'd be a flat no on Helton. I don't see what makes him better than Carlos Delgado or Lance Berkman other than he got to play home games in Coors Field.This, but as an argument for why Berkman and Delgado should have gotten in. Berkman, in particular, had six 6+ WAR seasons and a career wRC+ higher than Big Papi's (144 vs. 140). Also a higher WAR total, fwiw. His career was a little on the short side, but still he had only 100 fewer PAs than Mauer. Catcher is not the same position as starting pitcher or outfielder/first baseman. Catchers do not play as long as any other position. They stop playing it before any other position has to stop playing. Catching also impacts the offense of the player. It’s hard to catch a game and put up good batting numbers. You cannot compare Mauer to anyone except other catchers, and he is one of the fifteen or so best catchers in the history of the sport.
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Post by bluechip on Jan 24, 2024 12:23:42 GMT -5
Anyway, Billy Wagner was a really good closer, and a Hall that includes Bruce Sutter and Trevor Hoffman probably has a place for Wagner. But it's wild to me how much love closers have gotten relative to their starting pitcher contemporaries. Like, Johan Santana's career had three times Wagner's innings, but his career is too short and he falls off the ballot in one year? Just nuts to me. Reliever and starter are different positions and should be evaluated differently. If you believe that the hall of fame should not include relievers…well… that’s the opinion the old timer writers had for many years. That opinion was definitely abandoned when they unanimously elected Marino Rivera. Edit: I’m not saying Wagner is Rivera, just that Rivera who is deserving of the hall, had different criteria applied to him than starters have applied to them. There are many pitchers not in the hall who compare to Johan Santana. He did not have the longevity usually needed to be a starter. While his peak was very good, it was not quite on the level of Addie Joss or Sandy Koufax.
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Post by jawnvalentin on Jan 24, 2024 12:29:37 GMT -5
Johan Santana had a 136 ERA+ in 2025 innings. The only post-1950 starting pitchers with as good an ERA+ and 2000+ innings are Clayton Kershaw, Pedro Martinez and Roger Clemens.
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Post by jawnvalentin on Jan 24, 2024 13:03:10 GMT -5
I enjoy HOF talk, so curious who you all think the most egregious omissions are. For me (not counting PED guys), it's Bernie Williams. He had a .937 OPS in CF over an 8-year prime for one of the few dynasties we've seen. Anecdotally, the guy scared the living shit out of me every time he came up in a big spot. Better career road OPS than Todd Helton too and scored more runs per 162 games than Tim Raines!
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Post by puzzler on Jan 24, 2024 13:46:57 GMT -5
Johan Santana had a 136 ERA+ in 2025 innings. The only post-1950 starting pitchers with as good an ERA+ and 2000+ innings are Clayton Kershaw, Pedro Martinez and Roger Clemens. But all of them had at least 2700/2800 innings and Clemens through almost 2.5 times as many innings. That's a huge disparity.
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