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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 20, 2024 14:25:03 GMT -5
Devers is obviously 100% correct. This organization had a very clear, very obvious North Star that they should have been building toward for the last 5 years: competing during Devers' prime years. It could not have been any simpler, everything should have been gearing up with an eye toward 2024-2026. To win 78 games in back-to-back years and then follow it up with this offseason when you are heading into this window-of-contention is just atrocious. Devers knows it, Pedroia knows it, Jansen knows it. If you are going to fumble this badly don't be surprised if you get called out. Maybe John Henry should have skipped spring training the way he blew off Town Hall.
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Post by notstarboard on Feb 20, 2024 14:26:37 GMT -5
Props to those defending saintly altruistic billionaires John Henry and Tom Werner from notorious big rude, arrogant, meanie Raffy Devers. Not all heroes wear capes It's more just the apparent hypocrisy of calling out others for not doing enough when it seems like there's a lot more he could be doing himself. I want commitment from ownership, but I also want Devers at Story's fielding camp, for example, given how bad he's been over there. And besides, the final roster and payroll isn't set, but Devers' offseason work is.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 20, 2024 14:27:16 GMT -5
Somehow this offseason is worse than the one in which Mookie was traded. That’s how bad Sox PR has let this snowball. Can’t think of a single correct spin they put on anything. Honestly, it’s impressive. I don’t even blame Kennedy all that much, in spite of fan relations at this point. There’s only so much spin he can put on his spitball. I think he’s been taking one or two or three or fourteen for the team. Agreed. The guy grew up a diehard Sox fan. You can only imagine what he must be thinking versus what's coming out of us mouth. Kennedy hasn't helped himself but it's hard to put lipstick on a pig. He's tried the honest route recently, which I think is the better way to go.
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Post by puzzler on Feb 20, 2024 14:31:21 GMT -5
Pride? One can always find a reason to not work hard. Why don't you hold ownership to that same expectation? I'll hold ownership to whatever the expectation is after Devers puts up one season worthy of the $330 million dollar contract he signed. I'm not holding my breath.
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Post by briam on Feb 20, 2024 14:36:20 GMT -5
More from Rafi.
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Post by bloomstaxonomy on Feb 20, 2024 14:37:01 GMT -5
Props to those defending saintly altruistic billionaires John Henry and Tom Werner from notorious big rude, arrogant, meanie Raffy Devers. Not all heroes wear capes It's more just the apparent hypocrisy of calling out others for not doing enough when it seems like there's a lot more he could be doing himself. I want commitment from ownership, but I also want Devers at Story's fielding camp, for example, given how bad he's been over there. And besides, the final roster and payroll isn't set, but Devers' offseason work is. I understand this perspective, but it seems like Story’s camp was for younger players, minor leaguers and players with 1 or 2 years of major league experience at most. I’m not surprised Devers wasn’t there. Perhaps he wasn’t even invited. Story wanted to set an example for younger players. Devers could probably use some extra practice, sure. I’m just not sure how much it would help. He’s also going to get plenty of practice during spring training. I see less of a through line between Devers going to Storyland Fielding Camp and the team improving tremendously than I do Breslow signing Montgomery and the team improving. Devers is the best player on the team. I really don’t think he should have a target on his back unless he says something egregiously inappropriate.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Feb 20, 2024 14:39:43 GMT -5
Pride? One can always find a reason to not work hard. Why don't you hold ownership to that same expectation? Running out ground balls is not a very high standard, so I expect I hold ownership to a higher standard. Of course they have won 4 championships in 20 years -- the most in the sport -- so I find they have exceeded my expectations. That, and I don't choose to incessantly whine on a message board how a business owner chooses to spend his money. If I come to dislike his product to an extent I feel compelled to tears, then I expect I'll shop elsewhere. Or do without.
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Post by notstarboard on Feb 20, 2024 14:41:25 GMT -5
He doesn't have to be a robot - but he could be an example to other players and he simply chooses not to be. Story could have said the exact same thing; but he's out there running camps getting to know new guys, working on improving, helping others improve, building team chemistry. Devers' opinion falls about as flat as it could, because he's spent the entire offseason in the Dominican enjoying the spoils of his $300 million dollar contract. And in his first interview, he's reading cue cards from his rich buddies about spending more money. I'm sure 99% of people will eat it up, but I don't see it as him having an opinion - I see it as him being lazy. How would you know what he was doing in the Dominican Republic during the offseason? He could have been working out like a fiend or doing fielding drills all winter. Who the hell knows? Good for Trevor Story trying to be a leader. So far hes been a guy over the past two years who has collected a huge paycheck and has accomplished squat. Neither Story or Devers are the real issue. Ownership direction has been the bigger issue, profit over winning. People see it. It's as plain as day. Great that they're building a future. Nk arguments there, but the present has been needlessly neglected as they're having yet another bridge season. Story has been worth 2.8 fWAR/600 PA over his Sox career, despite huge adversity in the form of the balky and then recovering elbow, the broken wrist on the hit-by-pitch, the rushed start to the 2022 season after signing so late (complete with food poisoning), and the general difficulty of adjusting to a new (and demanding!) environment. Want to know who else put up 2.8 fWAR/600 PA last year without any such obstacles? Devers.
I agree that neither is really the problem, but ownership isn't really either in the grand scheme of things. Unless they were going to steam well past the tax line this year no combination of moves was going to make this team a playoff favorite. Finishing ~$30 million under the tax threshold would be a wasted opportunity - we'll see where they end up - but it's realistically the difference of a win or two on the field this year, and for better or for worse it could have reprecussions in future years if they signed a Montgomery type to a long-term deal (e.g. not being able to justify a Burnes or Fried type next year).
I feel like people are projecting all of their frustrations with the team on the scapegoat du jour, when in reality the team has been mediocre for a while because they are wrapping up a rebuild. I don't really think anyone needs to be blamed here. I think the team is in a good position for the future and that this season is going to be a lot of fun.
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Post by briam on Feb 20, 2024 14:41:51 GMT -5
Blows my mind that people have an issue with a good player voicing his desire for the front office to get more good players. I imagine the same folks would be even more upset if he became complacent with losing.
Wonder if there’s a bad PR tipping point or they’re just completely dug in on business as usual.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Feb 20, 2024 14:45:20 GMT -5
Derek Jeter -- who I disliked as much, or more, than any Yankee ever -- "wanted to win" too. He showed that by fighting through every at bat and humping it out of the box every time he put the ball in play. Don't talk about it. Be about it.
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Post by lronhoyabembe on Feb 20, 2024 14:46:28 GMT -5
The open roster construction criticisms and trade deadline mutinies from the players really irks me. Even if their complaints are legitimate, it reflects low confidence and low expectations for the season. That is not a winning culture. It has significantly impacted my opinion of Cora.
I'd much rather hear our star players defy the narrative and defend their teammates, who are implicitly the ones being criticized every time this happens. Let the fans do the whining.
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Post by bg23 on Feb 20, 2024 14:48:28 GMT -5
I think ownership and the front office absolutely have not met expectations, and they are rightly being dragged for that. I think it is also fair to believe that Raffy hasn't lived up to, thus far, being a true organizational cornerstone and star player. It would makes ownerships decision to not spend even more ludicrous and indefensible if Raffy was a top 25 player in the game. The front office/ownership has of course let two top 50 players leave the organization since 2020, so even more blame to heap on them, and it is certainly fair for Raffy to make his thoughts known (and I think it is expected for franchise players, hopefully his input has an impact), but count me as someone who is also expecting more from him in the coming years.
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Post by briam on Feb 20, 2024 14:51:01 GMT -5
Derek Jeter -- who I disliked as much, or more, than any Yankee ever -- "wanted to win" too. He showed that by fighting through every at bat and humping it out of the box every time he put the ball in play. Don't talk about it. Be about it. Equating a player’s desire to win on an incredibly subjective “hustle” meter seems like you’re just being contrarian. He had a .380 xwOBA last year with 33 homeruns and a career high walk rate. He’s been the orgs most consistent hitter dating back to 2019. Having an issue with his defensive regression is one thing, but sprinting out ground balls? Come on lol
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 20, 2024 14:51:41 GMT -5
Why don't you hold ownership to that same expectation? Running out ground balls is not a very high standard, so I expect I hold ownership to a higher standard. Of course they have won 4 championships in 20 years -- the most in the sport -- so I find they have exceeded my expectations. That, and I don't choose to incessantly whine on a message board how a business owner chooses to spend his money. If I come to dislike his product to an extent I feel compelled to tears, then I expect I'll shop elsewhere. Or do without. No you incessantly choose to whine about others expressing unfavorable opinions on management. The "whining" comes from a place of caring, mostly from people who have spent most of their lives caring about this "product" and don't want to be in a place where their only choices are to shut up and take it or tune out. You choose not to react that way, that's fine, your choice,but don't put down others that dont't see it your way.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 20, 2024 14:52:53 GMT -5
These quotes are not contradictory First quote hypes up a fanbase with the premise they're going to spend and make trades to be better next year. I don't think you can expect, "full throttle" to mean anything else. Just like the Patriots will get eviscerated if they don't spend after Mayo talks about having cash to burn. Danny Ainge famously got ripped for his, "fireworks" comments. The second Werner comment he did back peddle the full throttle comments, but says there's no line for Breslow and that they're trusting him to make the best team possible. Werner is saying it's on Craig Breslow if he wants to spend the money or not. Then a month later Kennedy says, "we gave Breslow parameters as to what he can spend and he's operating within those parameters". So there was no line, but there are parameters? That sounds very contradictory.
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Post by swingingbunt on Feb 20, 2024 14:55:45 GMT -5
Derek Jeter -- who I disliked as much, or more, than any Yankee ever -- "wanted to win" too. He showed that by fighting through every at bat and humping it out of the box every time he put the ball in play. Don't talk about it. Be about it. I love this example. Jeter had an ownership that put their money where their mouth was every single year he was in the majors as a player. He never had a reason to complain about them and he worked as hard as they did. Then, he joined the Marlins organization as an owner, and because they didn't do the same, he called them out and quit.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 20, 2024 14:58:02 GMT -5
When all is said and done, ownership with the passage of time will probably be seen as the greatest ownership the Sox have had, and deservedly so. The four championships speak for themselves.
But just as the above is justifiably true so is the criticism they've been receiving over the past 5 years.
Both are true at the same time. The Patriots basically fired arguably the greatest coach in NFL history. Six superbowl championships. Let Mayo or any of his successors try to match that.
That said, should Belichick have been allowed to coach them for life and be immune to criticism and pretend that the post Tom Brady era hasn't been a sh!t show?
Belichick is the greatest coach the Patriots have ever had. Full stop. He also deserved to be let go. Both statements true at the same time.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 20, 2024 15:00:51 GMT -5
Derek Jeter -- who I disliked as much, or more, than any Yankee ever -- "wanted to win" too. He showed that by fighting through every at bat and humping it out of the box every time he put the ball in play. Don't talk about it. Be about it. His Yankees weren't ever this atrocious though. If it's one year that's a speed bump. Since 2018 2019 - Missed the playoffs 2020 - Missed the playoffs 2021 - ALCS 2022 - Missed the playoffs 2023 - Missed the playoffs 2024 - Very likely to miss That's 5 out of 6 seasons. That's insane for an organization as profitable as the Red Sox. I don't like Jeter either. I think he's more of a jerk than people recognize and he's a bit overrated despite being a HoFer. He was a gamer who showed up (didn't exactly help A-Rod fit in), but he never had to deal with this mess either. He also never felt like George was cheap and arguably cared too much that it negatively impacted the team.
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Post by puzzler on Feb 20, 2024 15:00:52 GMT -5
Derek Jeter -- who I disliked as much, or more, than any Yankee ever -- "wanted to win" too. He showed that by fighting through every at bat and humping it out of the box every time he put the ball in play. Don't talk about it. Be about it. I love this example. Jeter had an ownership that put their money where their mouth was every single year he was in the majors as a player. He never had a reason to complain about them and he worked as hard as they did. Then, he joined the Marlins organization as an owner, and because they didn't do the same, he called them out and quit. He never complained about them. He just quit. There's an example to follow!
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Feb 20, 2024 15:01:29 GMT -5
Running out ground balls is not a very high standard, so I expect I hold ownership to a higher standard. Of course they have won 4 championships in 20 years -- the most in the sport -- so I find they have exceeded my expectations. That, and I don't choose to incessantly whine on a message board how a business owner chooses to spend his money. If I come to dislike his product to an extent I feel compelled to tears, then I expect I'll shop elsewhere. Or do without. No you incessantly choose to whine about others expressing unfavorable opinions on management. The "whining" comes from a place of caring, mostly from people who have spent most of their lives caring about this "product" and don't want to be in a place where their only choices are to shut up and take it or tune out. You choose not to react that way, that's fine, your choice,but don't put down others that dont't see it your way. If the shoe don't fit ... But, exactly how many redundancies does it take to form a whine? Ever travel with a child? "Are we almost there?" is a question. It might even be a reasonable one. When it is repeated, ad nauseum, is it still a question?
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 20, 2024 15:01:54 GMT -5
So a day after you randomly share a retired franchise great is telling you to sign FAs, Devers says they need to be doing more as well. It’s like this front office just collectively lost their brains after 2019. At this point no one should be sticking up for this ownership group. You have players kind of mad about the way the offseason went. That's not a great environment to be in. Its going to be interesting to see if Cora can hold them together but this was probably close to the worst case scenario to start camp. You don't want Jansen Pedroia and Devers essentially calling ownership cheap or in Jansen's case saying that ownership mislead them in a nice way.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 20, 2024 15:06:23 GMT -5
Since Devers isn't good enough or doesn't hustle or whatever, is there a current player on this roster who is allowed to call out ownership? If the answer is no, isn't that also an indictment on ownership?
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Feb 20, 2024 15:07:24 GMT -5
Derek Jeter -- who I disliked as much, or more, than any Yankee ever -- "wanted to win" too. He showed that by fighting through every at bat and humping it out of the box every time he put the ball in play. Don't talk about it. Be about it. I love this example. Jeter had an ownership that put their money where their mouth was every single year he was in the majors as a player. He never had a reason to complain about them and he worked as hard as they did. Then, he joined the Marlins organization as an owner, and because they didn't do the same, he called them out and quit. I dunno. It was good for him before John Henry bought the Red Sox. Then he won once, in 2009, while the Red Sox were winning three times 2004, 2007, 2013). I think one is better served looking in the mirror before pointing fingers. Especially if that one can't be bothered to play hard.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 20, 2024 15:07:29 GMT -5
Derek Jeter -- who I disliked as much, or more, than any Yankee ever -- "wanted to win" too. He showed that by fighting through every at bat and humping it out of the box every time he put the ball in play. Don't talk about it. Be about it. I love this example. Jeter had an ownership that put their money where their mouth was every single year he was in the majors as a player. He never had a reason to complain about them and he worked as hard as they did. Then, he joined the Marlins organization as an owner, and because they didn't do the same, he called them out and quit. Steinbrenner wanted teams to stop crying about the Yankees spending money and spend money themselves. Devers situation and Jeters situations are apples and oranges.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 20, 2024 15:08:21 GMT -5
I love this example. Jeter had an ownership that put their money where their mouth was every single year he was in the majors as a player. He never had a reason to complain about them and he worked as hard as they did. Then, he joined the Marlins organization as an owner, and because they didn't do the same, he called them out and quit. He never complained about them. He just quit. There's an example to follow! Hard to quit when you're under contract as a player.
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