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The Big Bad Mookie Betts Thread
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Post by okin15 on Mar 24, 2014 9:24:33 GMT -5
The Sox wait until the last moment to have prospects switch positions. Which I hate. I applauded the idea that he would see time at SS this ST, and apparently they don't like when I'm happy. I mean, I know he's getting ready to play this season at 2B, but can't he get just a little bit of practice at SS in some meaningless games that seem to drag on for one too many weeks anyway? Is it that dangerous for him to do that?
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Post by jmei on Mar 24, 2014 9:51:11 GMT -5
The Sox wait until the last moment to have prospects switch positions. Which I hate. I applauded the idea that he would see time at SS this ST, and apparently they don't like when I'm happy. I mean, I know he's getting ready to play this season at 2B, but can't he get just a little bit of practice at SS in some meaningless games that seem to drag on for one too many weeks anyway? Is it that dangerous for him to do that? If I remember correctly, Director of Player Development Ben Crockett has stated that the front office prefers to have prospects adjust to new defensive positions later in their careers to make sure they're first fully capable of (a) playing their natural position well enough and (b) of hitting well enough and being close enough to the majors to make it clear that their natural position is "blocked." The only prospects who we see featuring real positional flexibility in the low minors are the guys you don't project to be good enough to make it as anything but a true utility option (think Meneses, Dent, etc). Betts is 21 and has all of 211 PAs in A+, and while he's shown tantalizing tools, he's only had one year of great offensive production and his bat is not guaranteed to be MLB-caliber. He's making one of the toughest jumps in the minors (the one up to AA), and I think it's perfectly fair to let him concentrate on making the necessary offensive adjustment while keeping him at a defensive position he's comfortable at. Our own Ian Cundall has mentioned in the past that Betts looked uncomfortable at SS while in Lowell, so the best way to go might be to keep him at 2B for the time being rather than to pile too much on his plate all at once. If he shows he can handle the Eastern League, and once Marrero gets promoted to Pawtucket, I'm pretty confident he'll start to see some game reps at SS. Besides, are Spring Training games any less meaningful than a midseason minor league game? It's not like he'll only start seeing reps at SS at the major league level (where the games actually count); he's still got at least a full year left in the minors to potentially adjust to a new position (whether to SS or CF or elsewhere).
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Post by elguapo on Mar 24, 2014 10:51:16 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, Director of Player Development Ben Crockett has stated that the front office prefers to have prospects adjust to new defensive positions later in their careers to make sure they're first fully capable of (a) playing their natural position well enough and ... It's not clear that second base should be treated as Betts' primary position. If he can handle short he's probably more valuable there. Concerning the AA roster, since there's a significant chance that Marrero's career will include utility duties sooner or later, and since he doesn't exactly need work fielding SS, I would consider switching the two positionally, at least some of the time.
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Post by okin15 on Mar 24, 2014 11:15:59 GMT -5
I think jmei makes a good point though, we mayb be understating the difficulty of switching positions at this point in Betts' (or another player's) career or at least the distraction it would cause him. Also, I think the term "natural" position should be taken to mean the position he's been playing recently, as it is more natural to him in this early stage of the season.
Without much experience playing ball, I still worry that the Sox are overstating the EASE of switching at a later point in their careers. Anyway, they're going to keep doing it the way they do, but I kinda wish they'd do it a little earlier in case of need/quick rises that we see almost every year.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 24, 2014 11:24:19 GMT -5
Marrero is staying at short, if for no other reason than to maximize his trade value. If you can play SS, you can play 2nd or 3rd. Hell, if you can play SS, you can probably play any position but catcher.
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Post by elguapo on Mar 24, 2014 11:44:51 GMT -5
I think jmei makes a good point though, we mayb be understating the difficulty of switching positions at this point in Betts' (or another player's) career or at least the distraction it would cause him. Also, I think the term "natural" position should be taken to mean the position he's been playing recently, as it is more natural to him in this early stage of the season.. Except for Betts it's not a matter of learning a new position but moving back to one he is very familiar with and might even prefer. I think there's a significant difference. And the Sox are effectively switching Coyle to a new position right now at the same level.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 24, 2014 12:14:27 GMT -5
Coyle is close to non prospect status so his position move doesn't really matter.
Midseason minor league games should mean a hell of a lot more to the player than a spring training game. There are playoffs and championships in the minors that guys want to win because they are competitors and if they don't and aren't then I'm not sure I want them on my team. As fans of the major league team, we don't give a crap, but as players they should. Anyone who's ever played competitive sports at any type of high level should have that engrained in them. These guys want to win at Xbox - they sure as hell want to win their minor league championship .
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Post by jmei on Mar 24, 2014 12:42:04 GMT -5
I think jmei makes a good point though, we mayb be understating the difficulty of switching positions at this point in Betts' (or another player's) career or at least the distraction it would cause him. Also, I think the term "natural" position should be taken to mean the position he's been playing recently, as it is more natural to him in this early stage of the season.. Except for Betts it's not a matter of learning a new position but moving back to one he is very familiar with and might even prefer. I think there's a significant difference. This is pretty speculative. Remember, when Ian scouted Betts in Lowell two years ago, he looked uncomfortable at SS and was much more natural at 2B. Now, that might have just been a coincidence (i.e., Betts might have looked more comfortable over time anyways had he stayed at SS), but that combined with the fact that he's exclusively played 2B for a year and a half (and has played exclusively there this spring despite consistent rumblings that he'd see time at SS) is pretty clear evidence that the front office sees him as more of a 2B than a SS. Yes, Betts played shortstop (and center field) in high school, but pretty much every 2B or 3B played SS in their amateur days (see, e.g., Cecchini or Pedroia or Rijo) and it doesn't mean that they can switch back seamlessly or that they're all "natural shortstops." And the Sox are effectively switching Coyle to a new position right now at the same level. That was in responsive to Coyle being blocked at his natural position. He's also a much lesser prospect that might need to be a utility option (i.e., also see time at the outfield corners) to see the majors. (Though I do think a lot of folks (read: rjp) are writing him off way too early. He'd be my nominee for comeback player of the year in the Red Sox system next year.) Midseason minor league games should mean a hell of a lot more to the player than a spring training game. I don't mean that midseason minor league games are meaningless to the player, but they don't mean a lot to the organization. My point is that the front office should and would have no qualms starting Betts' transition to shortstop in the middle of a season, and that you don't necessarily have to to introduce a minor league prospect to a new position during Spring Training.
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Post by elguapo on Mar 24, 2014 13:11:00 GMT -5
....Ian scouted Betts in Lowell two years ago, he looked uncomfortable at SS and was much more natural at 2B. Yeah, we know, that's really old news. As in, very possibly well out of date. Multiple recent talent evaluators have indicated Betts could/should be a go at shortstop. Yes, we know the Sox don't seem to be making the move now - you can read the tea leaves one way, that they don't like him at short, but maybe it's just a matter of timing and opportunity. He's the best prospect on that infield and I don't see a downside to bumping Marrero, who is a "much lesser prospect". I'd like to see it this season -- maybe Marrero gets promoted and Betts slides over, but even if he doesn't get promoted, I think Betts' development gets priority. Doesn't matter why for the point I was making. Plus, there has been a question whether he may have to move off second eventually anyway, since he's something of a fatty and/or could bulk up & lose dexterity as he physically matures.
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Post by jmei on Mar 24, 2014 13:30:51 GMT -5
....Ian scouted Betts in Lowell two years ago, he looked uncomfortable at SS and was much more natural at 2B. Yeah, we know, that's really old news. As in, very possibly well out of date. Multiple recent talent evaluators have indicated Betts could/should be a go at shortstop. Yes, we know the Sox don't seem to be making the move now - you can read the tea leaves one way, that they don't like him at short, but maybe it's just a matter of timing and opportunity. He's the best prospect on that infield and I don't see a downside to bumping Marrero, who is a "much lesser prospect". I'd like to see it this season -- maybe Marrero gets promoted and Betts slides over, but even if he doesn't get promoted, I think Betts' development gets priority. I agree that Betts should (and probably will) gets reps at shortstop this year, and that he'll probably look OK defensively there, but was just explaining why it makes sense that he hasn't gotten any reps there in Spring Training so far. Even if he played some SS in high school, it takes an adjustment to move there after having exclusively played second base for a year and a half, and the front office doesn't want to stack that on top of his having to adjust his bat to more advanced pitching at the same time. Doesn't matter why for the point I was making. Plus, there has been a question whether he may have to move off second eventually anyway, since he's something of a fatty and/or could bulk up & lose dexterity as he physically matures. I think it absolutely matters why. The Red Sox don't like to force a prospect to learn multiple positions until they have to (i.e., because he's blocked at his natural position). For Coyle to get playing time, he pretty much had to play another position (or DH almost exclusively, which is not ideal either). That impediment does not currently exist for Betts, and most likely won't until he reaches the cusp of the majors, which explains why he continues to exclusively play 2B this spring. (Also: as far as I know, there's never been a report on Coyle to the effect that he's out of shape/overweight. Getting too bulky for the position is very different from being fat, and the latter doesn't apply to Coyle.)
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 24, 2014 13:35:41 GMT -5
How many 5'8" players play anything other than 2B/SS? Hard to imagine him as a prospect after a position change.
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Post by elguapo on Mar 24, 2014 13:52:32 GMT -5
the front office doesn't want to stack that on top of his having to adjust his bat to more advanced pitching at the same time. Did the Red Sox actually say this about Betts or are you just extrapolating? Allegedly he did, but let's pretend it's not proven. My point was specifically responding to the difficulty of switching while also making the jump to AA, which they're doing with a kid with contact issues. That's why I said and/or: I've seen multiple mentions of him potentially growing off the position, but very little specific detail -- who knows how he'll really develop, and to a degree it doesn't matter why a player gets heavy. Obviously he's not Joey Meyer!
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Post by jmei on Mar 24, 2014 15:15:41 GMT -5
the front office doesn't want to stack that on top of his having to adjust his bat to more advanced pitching at the same time. Did the Red Sox actually say this about Betts or are you just extrapolating? As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Assistant GM Mike Hazen has said exactly that in the context of Betts, noting that the front office wants prospects to focus on one area of development at a time and that they want players to establish themselves offensively before trying them at multiple positions. Allegedly he did, but let's pretend it's not proven. If I'm reading you correctly, you misinterpreted what I meant. The "Even if..." was meant to concede that yes, he did play SS in high school, but that it doesn't really matter because it doesn't mean he can effortlessly move back to the position at a high level three years later. My point was specifically responding to the difficulty of switching while also making the jump to AA, which they're doing with a kid with contact issues. I don't think the front office thinks playing multiple positions is impossible for a prospect in the lower minors, but they want to delay it as much as possible (see above linked podcast). Unfortunately, they couldn't wait any longer with Coyle, but they probably could wait at least another few months with Betts. I've seen multiple mentions of him potentially growing off the position, but very little specific detail -- who knows how he'll really develop, and to a degree it doesn't matter why a player gets heavy. Obviously he's not Joey Meyer! Every report I've seen (e.g., here) notes that any potential move off the position would be because of muscle bulk, not his being a "fatty." I do think it's important to clarify the difference, as calling Coyle fat implies that he has a poor work ethic or bad eating habits or is generally out of shape, which (as far as we know) isn't the case.
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Post by mainesox on Mar 24, 2014 19:23:30 GMT -5
How many 5'8" players play anything other than 2B/SS? Hard to imagine him as a prospect after a position change. For what it's worth, some really good defensive 3B are under 6'0" (Beltre is 5'11", Polanco and Callaspo are both 5'9", Figgins is 5'8")
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Post by joshv02 on Mar 24, 2014 20:13:10 GMT -5
Iirc, Coyle is a gym rat.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Mar 24, 2014 21:37:26 GMT -5
Coyle could well profile as an infield sub at some point anyway, at least in his early years in the majors and cover 2nd and 3rd decently. More as an injury sub though rather than on the normal 25 man roster probably. He will ride the train back and forth to AAA for a while I bet. In Lavarnway mode.
I like infield subs who can also run the bases well and Colye is 28 steals to 2 CS in the last 2 years. That probably doesn't extend to the mlb level but it's at least somewhat promising.
If they can teach him to go to RF once in a while they would probably have something.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 25, 2014 7:58:25 GMT -5
And the Sox are effectively switching Coyle to a new position right now at the same level. That was in responsive to Coyle being blocked at his natural position. He's also a much lesser prospect that might need to be a utility option (i.e., also see time at the outfield corners) to see the majors. (Though I do think a lot of folks (read: rjp) are writing him off way too early. He'd be my nominee for comeback player of the year in the Red Sox system next year.) This may be a matter of semantics, but when I say Coyle is basically a non prospect at this point, I'm not writing him off completely. It's more an illustration of where he fits in the prospect world within the organization. He's not only way down the list, his odds of being an effective major leaguer are extremely low. His defense and speed are decent, but not above average so his bat needs to carry him, especially since he can't play short (read: no utility role - unless you actually think corner OF is realistic). His bat hadn't even been GREAT in the low minors and his K rates are off the charts there, expecting them to improve as he gets higher is wish casting. While possible, anyone predicting such things isn't being realistic. I'm pretty sure he's most likely an organization player at this point, with an outside chance of making an appearance in MLB. The point being, that you can't take anything that the Sox are doing with him in 2014 and compare it to a player like Betts. They live in different worlds as far as the Red Sox are concerned. If they had a good 3b prospect in AA to go with Marrero and Betts, you can almost guarantee they wouldn't be worried about what to do with Coyle. He'd fit where he fit. Whereas if Betts or Marrero had the same situation, they'd be doing everything possible to get proper reps for everyone.
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Post by elguapo on Mar 25, 2014 9:02:50 GMT -5
Allegedly he did, but let's pretend it's not proven. If I'm reading you correctly, you misinterpreted what I meant. The "Even if..." was meant to concede that yes, he did play SS in high school, but that it doesn't really matter because it doesn't mean he can effortlessly move back to the position at a high level three years later. Correct, your wording was disputatious, indicating Betts' history at SS was a plausible theory. As you mention, Hazen seems to think Betts was a SS before. In fact, he was drafted as a SS and started his professional career as a SS. You repeatedly cite Ian's report on Betts' first two weeks at Lowell in 2012 adjusting to professional ball but treat 2011 as ancient history. I think you get locked into a position and will argue ad infinitum against anything, even treating Betts' history at SS as a hypothetical. Which makes it very difficult to get anywhere in discussion. Goody, let's split some more hairs.
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Post by jmei on Mar 25, 2014 11:08:43 GMT -5
How many 5'8" players play anything other than 2B/SS? Hard to imagine him as a prospect after a position change. For what it's worth, some really good defensive 3B are under 6'0" (Beltre is 5'11", Polanco and Callaspo are both 5'9", Figgins is 5'8") It's long been baseball convention that the tall guys who move off SS go to 3B and the short guys who move off SS go to 2B. There is some logic behind that-- tall guys might be more likely to have the arm for 3B, while short guys might be more likely to have the range-- but there's no inherent reason short guys can't play 3B or corner outfield as long as they have the arm for it.
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Post by theburn on Apr 5, 2014 11:30:20 GMT -5
Based on what I've seen in this thread and around the rest of the web, it sounds like the only place Mookie can logically play if he is ever to have a future with the sox is shortstop, and for that to happen, too many dominoes would need to fall before and after he reaches the majors.
If the Sox have a mid-season need like they did last year, I can't help but think that Betts will be used to address it.
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alnipper
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Living the dream
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Post by alnipper on Apr 5, 2014 11:44:33 GMT -5
Welcome to Soxprospects! If he continues to play at such a high level they'll make room for him. I was wondering if his base running is good enough that he might get a call up in September. Also keep in mind that just one injury in the future could create a opening for him. That won't happen today, but it could happen this much later this year or next.
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
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Post by steveofbradenton on Apr 5, 2014 12:24:14 GMT -5
Based on what I've seen in this thread and around the rest of the web, it sounds like the only place Mookie can logically play if he is ever to have a future with the sox is shortstop, and for that to happen, too many dominoes would need to fall before and after he reaches the majors. If the Sox have a mid-season need like they did last year, I can't help but think that Betts will be used to address it. Welcome theburn. I mentioned earlier in a different thread that Mookie Betts could be our Ben Zobrist......a guy who can play several places well defensively and contribute solidly on offense. I want to see him get some reps in the outfield. I'm sure he'd be at least decent in center and may have the arm for right. Here is an idea: when Ortiz rides off into the sunset, we will almost certainly NOT go with a dedicated DH. We will probably alternate guys through the DH to rest folks like most teams. If Mookie could play a decent outfield, he could easily pick 400+ at-bats per year as we filter guys through the DH daily. As an example: Pedroia may DH 10 to 15 times per year and Mookie could play 2nd those days. Xander could also stay fresh by DHing and Mookie could play short 10 to 15 times there. Depending on what outfield position he plays the best, we could move some people there and let him play 100 games out there. Bradley, who I love, may be our best right fielder we have after Victorino leaves and Mookie could play center. The idea is if Betts is an impact player offensively he may be able to give a big advantage by being versatile. I actually see Cecchini moving back and forth between 3rd and 1st for awhile also.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Apr 5, 2014 12:44:21 GMT -5
I'm with Al here. And yes, from the reports he's a good baserunner (I haven't seen him play in person outside of video).
I think the question that will be answered this year has to do with the power that showed up in 2013. Given his other skills, if he can maintain his slugging at, say .450+, that opens up more possibilities for him. The arm may not be strong enough for rightfield in Fenway, and third probably isn't an option. That still leaves a bit of room to move him around the diamond and beyond it. If the bat is really going to be this good, the team will figure this one out.
All of this fits into a much larger question about the load of talent that's near-ready. Marrero is a very good fielder, and he's reached AA also. If he hits he's someone they need to include in the equation. They have multiple options at skill positions, at this point, both in AA and AAA. It's that hoarding thing...
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danr
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Post by danr on Apr 6, 2014 0:56:50 GMT -5
One of either Cecchini or Betts, or both, should be converted to the OF. The Sox are very short of really good OF prospects, and what they have on the team now will be aging fast,or gone, in another year or two, except for Bradley.
I guess a lot depends on Middlebrooks. If he can hold the 3B position then Cecchini either is the 1B after Napoli, or an OF. Betts almost surely would have to an OF.
I am not in favor of trading either of these players unless the Sox get an elite OF in the deal, one they can control for several years.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Apr 6, 2014 2:23:30 GMT -5
One of either Cecchini or Betts, or both, should be converted to the OF. The Sox are very short of really good OF prospects, and what they have on the team now will be aging fast,or gone, in another year or two, except for Bradley. I guess a lot depends on Middlebrooks. If he can hold the 3B position then Cecchini either is the 1B after Napoli, or an OF. Betts almost surely would have to an OF. I am not in favor of trading either of these players unless the Sox get an elite OF in the deal, one they can control for several years. Completely agree with you.
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