SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
5/17-5/19 Red Sox @ Twins Series Thread
|
Post by bluechip on May 18, 2013 21:21:44 GMT -5
Completely off topic: I know the Red Sox typically require a player to be inducted into the HOF, but how does Ortiz not have his number retired? The Red Sox self-imposed rules for having a number retired are moronic and should be discarded. They already stretch the rules pretty far. Fisk did not end his career in boston, but 27 is retired. Pesky never made the hall of fame. Obviously Pesky and Fisk deserve to have their numbers retired. Pedro did not end his career with the Red Sox and was not on the team for ten years, but he should and probably will have his number retired. Ortiz probably will not make the hall of fame, but he too deserves to have his number retired.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on May 18, 2013 21:26:22 GMT -5
I mean, at this rate, Ortiz may very well end up with HOF-type numbers. Not that I should be counting on the HOF voters to maintain any kind of rationality, but Edgar Martinez is blocking that door pretty well right now. And honestly, Ortiz really isn't likely to have a very strong HOF case anyway.... *ducks*
|
|
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,833
|
Post by wcp3 on May 18, 2013 21:36:26 GMT -5
I mean, at this rate, Ortiz may very well end up with HOF-type numbers. Not that I should be counting on the HOF voters to maintain any kind of rationality, but Edgar Martinez is blocking that door pretty well right now. And honestly, Ortiz really isn't likely to have a very strong HOF case anyway.... *ducks* I don't think anyone would argue much with that - a DH would probably need at least 500 homers to have a shot at the Hall, and I don't see Ortiz reaching that mark. Plus, his name was tainted slightly in one steroid scandal, and the moronic geezer baseball writers seem to discard anyone with a connection to PEDs.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on May 18, 2013 21:45:47 GMT -5
Not that I should be counting on the HOF voters to maintain any kind of rationality, but Edgar Martinez is blocking that door pretty well right now. And honestly, Ortiz really isn't likely to have a very strong HOF case anyway.... *ducks* I don't think anyone would argue much with that - a DH would probably need at least 500 homers to have a shot at the Hall, and I don't see Ortiz reaching that mark. Frank Thomas is the first guy who was primarily a DH who should kick open the DH door. Maybe he won't, but he should.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on May 18, 2013 21:47:44 GMT -5
He's also currently at ~40 career wins above replacement, well below average for a HOFer, so I don't see him getting the Bert Blyleven stathead push behind him either. Especially given that guys like Tim Raines and Barry F'n Bonds are probably still going to be sitting on the ballot...
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on May 18, 2013 21:54:33 GMT -5
I mean, at this rate, Ortiz may very well end up with HOF-type numbers. Not that I should be counting on the HOF voters to maintain any kind of rationality, but Edgar Martinez is blocking that door pretty well right now. And honestly, Ortiz really isn't likely to have a very strong HOF case anyway.... *ducks* It was just a few years back, before the down year with the atrocious April numbers, that BP wrote up Ortiz as being on the cusp of just that, a HOF case. Since that forgettable 2009 season his OPS numbers are .899, 953, 1.026 and he's over 1.000 again this year. As mentioned above, if and when the HOF voters get over their quaint notions about DHs and give Edgar Martinez the recognition he richly deserves, Ortiz will be next in line. When he's healthy he hits like very few others. He's also currently at ~40 career wins above replacement, well below average for a HOFer, so I don't see him getting the Bert Blyleven stathead push behind him either. Especially given that guys like Tim Raines and Barry F'n Bonds are probably still going to be sitting on the ballot... Since when have HOF voters ever considered WAR as a factor? And his defensive WAR is -16.7?? That should have you spitting up your beer. If they play the numbers game, and that is what seems to get them off, he's a good bet to get serious consideration.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on May 18, 2013 21:56:08 GMT -5
Oritz really has real longevity issues with his hall of fame case.
|
|
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,833
|
Post by wcp3 on May 18, 2013 21:56:19 GMT -5
He's also currently at ~40 career wins above replacement, well below average for a HOFer, so I don't see him getting the Bert Blyleven stathead push behind him either. Especially given that guys like Tim Raines and Barry F'n Bonds are probably still going to be sitting on the ballot... If Barry Bonds gets left out of the Hall, then it will no longer have any legitimacy. Hey, wait, that happened when Pete Rose got banned.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on May 18, 2013 22:01:25 GMT -5
He's also currently at ~40 career wins above replacement, well below average for a HOFer, so I don't see him getting the Bert Blyleven stathead push behind him either. Especially given that guys like Tim Raines and Barry F'n Bonds are probably still going to be sitting on the ballot... If Barry Bonds gets left out of the Hall, then it will no longer have any legitimacy. Hey, wait, that happened when Pete Rose got banned. And I guess the next guy that is supposed to be mentioned is Shoeless Joe Jackson.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on May 18, 2013 22:04:12 GMT -5
Frank Thomas is the first guy who was primarily a DH who should kick open the DH door. Maybe he won't, but he should. www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtmlNot that WAR is everything, but Frank Thomas has nearly twice the career WAR that Ortiz does. And if the HOF voters can't identify Thomas as a clear HOFer... actually it won't even be as bad as the guys they're currently screwing up on. (also, if you're looking for a laugh, click over to the starting pitcher JAWS leaderboards and look at the guys ahead of Jack Morris.)
|
|
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,833
|
Post by wcp3 on May 18, 2013 22:07:48 GMT -5
It never ceases to amaze me that NESN has a guy who can't speak English doing postgame analysis.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on May 18, 2013 22:08:45 GMT -5
Hey, wait, that happened when Pete Rose got banned. Rose is actually more understandable to me. At least it's based on an adherence to a set of actual, written rules. He was banned from baseball and it's the Hall's stated policy that he's not eligible because of that. Whereas with steroids it's just, eh, this dude had rippling biceps so yeah, don't vote for him.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on May 18, 2013 22:11:34 GMT -5
It never ceases to amaze me that NESN has a guy who can't speak English doing postgame analysis. Jim Rice's job basically exists because X percent of the people tuned into NESN for a Red Sox game aren't in the room when the game ends.
|
|
|
Post by gregblossersbelly on May 18, 2013 22:13:09 GMT -5
Nice to get the win without having to use Tazawa. We'll have Tazawa, Uehara and Miller ready to go tomorrow. Just need 6 innings out of Lackey and go for the sweep. How the hell did we lose 3/4 to these guys at Fenway? We're the Mayor's Cup Champions for god's sake!!
|
|
|
Post by marrcus on May 18, 2013 22:16:19 GMT -5
After his not-o-hot SpringTraining I never would have believed Ortiz would start '13 this strong. They have to keep him healthy this season because I don't even want to think what it would be like without him in the lineup.
When they play the NL he's going to have to move Nava off 1b for a few games. I'm not sure I want him catching but Ortiz has to play.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on May 18, 2013 22:32:28 GMT -5
Frank Thomas is the first guy who was primarily a DH who should kick open the DH door. Maybe he won't, but he should. www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtmlNot that WAR is everything, but Frank Thomas has nearly twice the career WAR that Ortiz does. And if the HOF voters can't identify Thomas as a clear HOFer... actually it won't even be as bad as the guys they're currently screwing up on. (also, if you're looking for a laugh, click over to the starting pitcher JAWS leaderboards and look at the guys ahead of Jack Morris.) Well since were on the subject of the hall of fame, if High Pockets Kelly is in the hall of fame...
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,696
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on May 18, 2013 22:35:42 GMT -5
Completely off topic: I know the Red Sox typically require a player to be inducted into the HOF, but how does Ortiz not have his number retired? The Red Sox self-imposed rules for having a number retired are moronic and should be discarded. They already stretch the rules pretty far. Fisk did not end his career in boston, but 27 is retired. Pesky never made the hall of fame. Obviously Pesky and Fisk deserve to have their numbers retired. Pedro did not end his career with the Red Sox and was not on the team for ten years, but he should and probably will have his number retired. Ortiz probably will not make the hall of fame, but he too deserves to have his number retired. The Red Sox got around their stupid self-imposed rules based on a technicality when it came to Fisk. Duquette gave him a temporary figure head position so they could say he "finished" his career with the Red Sox. If the Sox want to go that route with Pedro they certainly can as he is now employed by the organization. Of course the irony of this is that it would exclude Bobby Doerr who actually "finished" his career in the Toronto Blue Jays organization as a coach around the time the team was first formed. Of course, it would be stupid for the Sox to unretire #1. Pesky isn't a HOFer, which is where the current administration bent the rules, and my guess is they'll bend the rules for Big Papi, too. But honestly the rules are pretty stupid to begin with. There's no reason the Sox can't pay homage to guys like Jimmy Collins, Cy Young, Tris Speaker, Joe Wood, Harry Hooper, and Babe Ruth, none of whom didn't wear numbers with the Sox. Jimmie Foxx and Lefty Grove certainly impacted the Sox during their time, but there's never any discussion about retiring #3 and #10. There's no real reason that Wade Boggs #26 shouldn't be retired. It's stupid that it hasn't been. As distasteful as it could be, Roger Clemens' #21 should be retired. Luis Tiant and Dwight Evans were Red Sox greats whose numbers 23 and 24 should be considered, and depending upon how you feel about Manny and his #24, and Ortiz, they should be given consideration as well.
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,696
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on May 18, 2013 22:39:01 GMT -5
It never ceases to amaze me that NESN has a guy who can't speak English doing postgame analysis. Jim Rice's job basically exists because X percent of the people tuned into NESN for a Red Sox game aren't in the room when the game ends. I guess they needed to figure out a way to do something with him. Say what you want about him, but Jim Rice has never been anything but a Boston Red Sox. He was a terrible hitting coach. I remember the stories about him mocking Scott Hatteberg because he dared to actually work the count. The horror! I guess he does less damage within the organization as an analyst.
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,696
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on May 18, 2013 22:42:17 GMT -5
Unless Ortiz gets to a magic number like 500 HRs, I don't think he has much of a chance at making the Hall of Fame, but I think his numbers are pretty impressive - forget the defensive side of things - for evaluating him, it's irrelevant. He also has the post-season resume including the historic 2004 post-season. That doesn't hurt him, either.
Honestly, I think if he can crank out 35 HRs this year, next year, and get one more year and go out with a bang hitting another 30 homers, I don't see how he makes the Hall.
And I know the 500 HR thing sounds superficial, but I think it would matter.
|
|
|
Post by rangoon82 on May 18, 2013 22:49:41 GMT -5
Dempster needs to find a way to pitch well against mediocre teams like Minnesota. Thats what a 3rd starter on a quality team should do.
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on May 19, 2013 2:55:12 GMT -5
Dempster was left in the game for one reason, and that's the five innings required to get a W. Does anyone want to advance the argument that managers are acting on special information that we as fans don't know about? Someone should please bring that up. Also, the way Lavarnway just got trucked on a play that wasn't remotely close should be illegal. Baseball isn't a contact sport. Obviously you're going to get collisions on close plays, but when a guy is clearly out like that... I mean, you might as well be punching the catcher in the face to avoid the tag. It's basically the same thing. Confirmed: bit.ly/13DxRRAMade me lose some respect for Farrell. You play to win the game. Period. Sox lost at least 2 and prob more games in 2011 trying to get Wakefield a "W" and how'd that go? I can see giving a guy the chance early on in an inning when they has a good- sized lead, but this came perilously close to 1) hurting the team in the immediate sense by putting the lead in jeopardy and 2) creating longer term damage by having an older pitcher, who was also off in his last start, throw what was basically an extra inning after his usual pitch length had been reached. And with no success. He actually looked gassed after the fourth. Hope we don't see much more of this. It was dumb.
|
|
|
Post by ikonos on May 19, 2013 4:09:37 GMT -5
Confirmed: bit.ly/13DxRRAMade me lose some respect for Farrell. You play to win the game. Period. Sox lost at least 2 and prob more games in 2011 trying to get Wakefield a "W" and how'd that go? I can see giving a guy the chance early on in an inning when they has a good- sized lead, but this came perilously close to 1) hurting the team in the immediate sense by putting the lead in jeopardy and 2) creating longer term damage by having an older pitcher, who was also off in his last start, throw what was basically an extra inning after his usual pitch length had been reached. And with no success. He actually looked gassed after the fourth. Hope we don't see much more of this. It was dumb. Some one (Pete Abraham I think) wrote on the globe that Buccholz said that all the starting pitchers appreciated that Farrell left Dempster in the game to get the W. If they lost the game, it would have sucked but as a new manager he probably ended up doing the right thing in the long term?
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on May 19, 2013 7:50:58 GMT -5
Confirmed: bit.ly/13DxRRAMade me lose some respect for Farrell. You play to win the game. Period. Sox lost at least 2 and prob more games in 2011 trying to get Wakefield a "W" and how'd that go? I can see giving a guy the chance early on in an inning when they has a good- sized lead, but this came perilously close to 1) hurting the team in the immediate sense by putting the lead in jeopardy and 2) creating longer term damage by having an older pitcher, who was also off in his last start, throw what was basically an extra inning after his usual pitch length had been reached. And with no success. He actually looked gassed after the fourth. Hope we don't see much more of this. It was dumb. Some one (Pete Abraham I think) wrote on the globe that Buccholz said that all the starting pitchers appreciated that Farrell left Dempster in the game to get the W. If they lost the game, it would have sucked but as a new manager he probably ended up doing the right thing in the long term? The pitcher's might appreciate it, but it was a stupid move. If I fully expressed all of the reasons that it was a stupid move this post would run for numerous paragraphs. It should not even be analogized to the decision to leave Pedro on the mound in 2003, which were different circumstances. In 2003, at least Grady Little believed that Pedro was his best chance of getting the next batter out. Farrell did not believe that Dempster was the best pitcher to face the next batter, he did it simply to appease the ego of a starting pitcher. I really do like Farrell as a manager. He does not necessarily manage a bullpen in the most efficient manner, but neither do most managers. The decision to leave Dempster on the mound really makes me lose a ton of respect for him though. Obviously he should not be fired, and I am not asking for that. On the other hand, I would hope someone in the front office has a discussion with about this (privately of course without telling anyone in the media/public).
|
|
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,833
|
Post by wcp3 on May 19, 2013 8:04:42 GMT -5
I'm fine with giving a pitcher one extra batter, but not two or three. Not only did that decision making the game harder to win last night, but it put the Red Sox in a position to lose. There's really no defense for that.
(And sorry, but if a guy can't get through 5 innings without special treatment, he doesn't deserve the win.)
|
|
|
Post by brianthetaoist on May 19, 2013 8:28:52 GMT -5
Eh, I'm pretty much fine with it. One of the things I always respected about Tito's managing was that he was willing to risk a loss in one particular game for the longer term good of the season. And, if the pitchers think that Farrell has their back, he has a lot more leeway to do other things they may not like. This kind of thing matters.
Besides, this happens ALL the time. I mean, really, just about any time a pitcher is in trouble in the fifth with a good sized lead on the scoreboard, a manager is going to try to let him finish off the fifth if at all possible.
In this case, Farrell waited a batter or two too long, but whatever ... he's going to err on the side of having his starter's back, and that's a legit way of going about it.
|
|
|