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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 9:00:48 GMT -5
You need to manage to win every game you can. The future wins aren't certain as are future events. He knew he should remove Dempster based of his capacity to get outs but he left him in there to appease to his/other pitchers ego. I think he's trying to avoid angering the players a la Bobby V.
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Post by brianthetaoist on May 19, 2013 9:30:49 GMT -5
No, you really shouldn't manage exclusively to win every game you are in. "Future wins aren't certain" has a kind of logic to it, but it ignores some basic realities of how a baseball season plays out. You should manage to win each game within the context of the entire season. If you manage to win every game you're playing without taking into account future capabilities of your team, you'll burn out the top relievers, never rest your top players, jerk around the clubhouse unnecessarily, etc, etc.
Future wins aren't certain, but if you manage each game without taking them into account, future losses sure will be ...
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Post by gregblossersbelly on May 19, 2013 9:48:48 GMT -5
No, you really shouldn't manage exclusively to win every game you are in. "Future wins aren't certain" has a kind of logic to it, but it ignores some basic realities of how a baseball season plays out. You should manage to win each game within the context of the entire season. If you manage to win every game you're playing without taking into account future capabilities of your team, you'll burn out the top relievers, never rest your top players, jerk around the clubhouse unnecessarily, etc, etc. Future wins aren't certain, but if you manage each game without taking them into account, future losses sure will be ... I agree from a physical sense. Don't want players to over-work themselves going for a win in May. But, not from a tactical sense. My poor starting pitcher will be a little butt-hurt because I pulled him after 4 2/3 in a game he pitched terribly. I hate that mentality. In fact, I think over-working Dempster was a stupid thing to do from a physical sense. Too many pitches in a game in May by the 5th inning when he clearly doesn't have it. Not to mention a stupid thing to do from a tactical sense. I know why Farrell did it. Just not buying it.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on May 19, 2013 9:56:30 GMT -5
Would also like to mention that Dempster could make it a team positive if he were pulled sooner. Just tell the press after the game, I sucked. I don't blame him for pulling me. We're just trying to win the damn game. I don't care about my personal stats. I know that's not reality. Most butt-hurt pitchers hold a grudge for the rest of their lives when that happens to them.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 19, 2013 11:21:31 GMT -5
Wasn't Farrell supposed to bring "discipline" or "leadership" to this team or something? Is catering to the stupid pitcher win rules in order to appease your fourth starter's ego really a good example of leadership? And on top of that, if anything is going to have a detrimental effect on this team long term, it's Dempster throwing nearly 130 pitches in less than five innings.
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Post by mainesox on May 19, 2013 12:12:44 GMT -5
And, if the pitchers think that Farrell has their back, he has a lot more leeway to do other things they may not like. Like what? Take them out of the game before they are eligible for a win? I don't buy this line of reasoning for a second; he's the manager, his job is to make the tough decisions, he doesn't need their permission to make decisions, and if they get so butt hurt about not liking some decision he made that it effects their performance then they don't belong in the majors. The only stat he should be chasing is team wins, instead he's risking losing the game so nobodies feelings get hurt? It's a joke, and I would seriously hope that this isn't such a group of malcontents that he's actually got to worry more about upsetting them than about winning baseball games.
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Post by jmei on May 19, 2013 13:54:48 GMT -5
The Don and Jerry show can be pretty terrible sometimes. "Is awkwardly a word?"
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 19, 2013 14:04:23 GMT -5
The only stat he should be chasing is team wins, instead he's risking losing the game so nobodies feelings get hurt? It's a joke, and I would seriously hope that this isn't such a group of malcontents that he's actually got to worry more about upsetting them than about winning baseball games. "Never making a decision that would upset an individual for the greater good of the team" is an odd definition of "leadership". Even buying into the premise that it's important to keep these guys happy, I'm really not impressed by managers who do that simply by giving the players everything they want. Show me the manager who keeps the clubhouse together while using players in way that they're not necessarily comfortable with.
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Post by brianthetaoist on May 19, 2013 14:10:24 GMT -5
Again, this happens all. the. time. Pitchers are highly competitive people, and they like to win. Yes, Farrell let it go a batter or two too long this time for sure. But it's totally acceptable to take into account the desire of a pitcher to finish off the fifth inning in your decisions, so acceptable that it happens essentially every time this situation comes up on every team. "There's a human behind every name, and there's a psyche you have to work with." -- John Farrell (talking about Jacoby Ellsbury, but it fits here)
Fans love to go on and on about "making tough decisions" and just dictating to the players what they have to do, but people aren't like that in any field, baseball or otherwise. I run a small non-profit organization with 8-10 employees, and as much as I'd sometimes like just tell them to do what I want them to do without considering their desires and needs, it's not the way you assert leadership. I could probably get something done a little more efficiently in that moment if I did it that way, and sometimes it's important enough that I do that. But when I do, I've built up enough trust in my folks that they do it with their full attention. Other times, I defer to what they need because it's more important for the long-term health of our team. And, who knows, they might even be right ...
A good baseball manager knows when its important enough to ignore the wishes of his players and when it isn't. Valentine was an idiot who never cared what his players thought, and other managers are too lenient and make the desires of the players paramount. So far, Farrell seems to be a decent mix on this, but we'll see.
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Post by jmei on May 19, 2013 14:11:12 GMT -5
Man, Victorino is a good defender. He just takes such good routes on balls and has the speed to chase down anything that isn't hit too hard.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 14:29:58 GMT -5
No, you really shouldn't manage exclusively to win every game you are in. "Future wins aren't certain" has a kind of logic to it, but it ignores some basic realities of how a baseball season plays out. You should manage to win each game within the context of the entire season. If you manage to win every game you're playing without taking into account future capabilities of your team, you'll burn out the top relievers, never rest your top players, jerk around the clubhouse unnecessarily, etc, etc. Future wins aren't certain, but if you manage each game without taking them into account, future losses sure will be ... There's a difference between overusing your players to the point that they won't be able to contribute to the team wins over the entire season for players, and basically doing sabotage to a game in order to appease to the egos of players as he did yesterday.
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Post by burythehammer on May 19, 2013 14:34:51 GMT -5
I'm not convinced Victorino isn't a better CF than Ellsbury even at this point in his career. 2011 really was one of the flukiest things I've ever seen. JBJ is going to be so much better it's not even funny.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 19, 2013 14:45:14 GMT -5
I'm not convinced Victorino isn't a better CF than Ellsbury even at this point in his career. 2011 really was one of the flukiest things I've ever seen. JBJ is going to be so much better it's not even funny. The advanced numbers seem to like Ellsbury considerably more in center (career numbers), but they also give Victorino stupid great numbers in right field. He has a ~25 UZR/150 in right for his career, which is probably wrong, but still.
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Post by brianthetaoist on May 19, 2013 14:54:23 GMT -5
There's a difference between overusing your players to the point that they won't be able to contribute to the team wins over the entire season for players, and basically doing sabotage to a game in order to appease to the egos of players as he did yesterday. Um ... they did win the game by seven runs.
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Post by marrcus on May 19, 2013 14:57:58 GMT -5
Damn this one could have been broken open. RS continue to grind with good P, fielding, and a few timely hits. Way to go yet ...keep it up JL.
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,833
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Post by wcp3 on May 19, 2013 14:58:41 GMT -5
Middlebrooks is a pretty awful hitter.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 19, 2013 15:07:55 GMT -5
Um ... they did win the game by seven runs. Which is something that might matter if it wasn't a two run game at the time.
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Post by wskeleton76 on May 19, 2013 15:08:16 GMT -5
Simply put, Ciriaco is useless. He can't hit. He can't play defense. Just terrible.
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atzar
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Post by atzar on May 19, 2013 15:08:24 GMT -5
What a grand display by our defensive-minded backup infielder. Routine double play ball, and you throw it right in the runner's nuts.
How does that even happen?
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Post by bluechip on May 19, 2013 15:09:12 GMT -5
Arcia goes hard into second to break up the DP, causes Ciriaco to throw wild to first, Parmalee gets hit in bad place. I can't speak for Parmelee, but that might make me where protection in the future.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 19, 2013 15:11:20 GMT -5
Simply put, Ciriaco is useless. He can't hit. He can play defense. Just terrible. I told you the Red Sox would rue the day they shipped Nick Punto out of town.
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Post by bluechip on May 19, 2013 15:13:03 GMT -5
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Post by bluechip on May 19, 2013 15:14:09 GMT -5
Simply put, Ciriaco is useless. He can't hit. He can play defense. Just terrible. I told you the Red Sox would rue the day they shipped Nick Punto out of town. I think Chris Parmelee rues that day more than anyone else.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 19, 2013 15:19:17 GMT -5
Honestly, that article gives five examples in the last fifteen years. When you consider the number of baseball games they play every year, it's an incredibly low rate. If it's stupid for players to not wear a cup, it's doubly stupid for pitchers to not wear some varient on a football helment.
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Post by bluechip on May 19, 2013 15:58:40 GMT -5
Honestly, that article gives five examples in the last fifteen years. When you consider the number of baseball games they play every year, it's an incredibly low rate. If it's stupid for players to not wear a cup, it's doubly stupid for pitchers to not wear some varient on a football helment. Outfielders probably don't need to wear a cup. Infielders and especially catchers probably should.
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