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Post by elguapo on Jul 23, 2013 15:48:43 GMT -5
The question is....when he is 34/35 and hitting .270 with 5 hrs and playing good defense but with lesser range and you still have him for 4 more years....but you are forced to deal a Mookie Betts or some other 23 year old stud because you have no place to play him...how do you justify that? If Pedroia ends up blocking a 2b prospect you deal the prospect for value at another position. That's what trades are for.
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Post by oilcansman on Jul 23, 2013 16:02:31 GMT -5
About a month ago I looked at Pedroia contract and thought it was perfect for the organization. This extension is three years to long. Length reminds me of Crawford contract for a 30 yr. old. Sox are going to eat last two years of this deal ($28 Million). He'll basically be paid $20 million per year for five hopefully productive years and amortize it, from his perspective, over seven years.
Realistically, what kind of deal would a 32 year old Pedroia have received on the free agent market and would it have beat what the Red Sox would have paid him two years from now. Phenomenal work by Dustin's agent. Red Sox not so much.
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Post by oilcansman on Jul 23, 2013 16:08:45 GMT -5
BTW: Cano is a significantly better offensive player than Pedroia. Pedroia last had an ops that exceeded Cano's in 2008. Cano is a shoe in for 25 homers, 880 ops. Pedroia may be a little better defensively but not by much. Cano has 2 gold gloves. Pedroia clearly is a MUCH better leader but numbers determine salary
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 23, 2013 16:11:46 GMT -5
Cano is probably going to get $200 to $240 million.
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Post by bluechip on Jul 23, 2013 16:15:36 GMT -5
Chase Utley has been injured a lot, but when he's on the field, his play is as good as it ever was. I.... Utley had a 922 OPS from ages 26-30 and briefly was Rogers Hornsby. He had a 1000+ OPS this June, but from age 30 on he's had an 811 OPS. His play is not "as good as it ever was." His WAR by either fangraphs or BR indicates that he is actually worth his 15 million dollar salary. If he had maintained his per 2011 level of production, he would have been woefully underpaid.
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Post by jmei on Jul 23, 2013 16:21:27 GMT -5
The question is....when he is 34/35 and hitting .270 with 5 hrs and playing good defense but with lesser range and you still have him for 4 more years....but you are forced to deal a Mookie Betts or some other 23 year old stud because you have no place to play him...how do you justify that? If Pedroia ends up blocking a 2b prospect you deal the prospect for value at another position. That's what trades are for. That sounds easy to do, but because the trade market is rather illiquid (because there are only 29 other GMs, most of whom won't be interested in a given prospect at any given time, GMs are risk adverse, etc.), it can often be hard getting fair value for a blocked prospect. That's one of my problems with the "long but lower AAV"-type deals. Even if Pedroia outperforms his AAV enough in the early stages of the deal that the deal looks justified as a whole, you still have an aging "franchise icon" who takes up a roster spot and will need at-bats. There will be significant pressure to keep him on the roster (because you want him to be a Red Sox lifer-- that was the whole point of the deal in the first place), even though a team might have better alternatives in the farm system or on the free agent market. I would much rather have this deal be a four-year $80m extension than a six-year $90m extension because I think even if Pedroia beats the odds and is still "worth" $5m when he's entering his late-30s (which I very much doubt will happen, by the way), his presence on the roster will tie the front office's hands and make it difficult for them to upgrade the position internally or externally. It's the idea that a team only has 25 slots to upgrade from, and if one of them is blocked off, it makes it that much more difficult to field the best team possible.
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Post by bluechip on Jul 23, 2013 16:32:32 GMT -5
If Pedroia ends up blocking a 2b prospect you deal the prospect for value at another position. That's what trades are for. That sounds easy to do, but because the trade market is rather illiquid (because there are only 29 other GMs, most of whom won't be interested in a given prospect at any given time, GMs are risk adverse, etc.), it can often be hard getting fair value for a blocked prospect. That's one of my problems with the "long but lower AAV"-type deals. Even if Pedroia outperforms his AAV enough in the early stages of the deal that the deal looks justified as a whole, you still have an aging "franchise icon" who takes up a roster spot and will need at-bats. There will be significant pressure to keep him on the roster (because you want him to be a Red Sox lifer-- that was the whole point of the deal in the first place), even though a team might have better alternatives in the farm system or on the free agent market. I would much rather have this deal be a four-year $80m extension than a six-year $90m extension because I think even if Pedroia beats the odds and is still "worth" $5m when he's entering his late-30s (which I very much doubt will happen, by the way), his presence on the roster will tie the front office's hands and make it difficult for them to upgrade the position internally or externally. It's the idea that a team only has 25 slots to upgrade from, and if one of them is blocked off, it makes it that much more difficult to field the best team possible. The question of whether Pedroia is actually blocking someone five years from now is really a minor concern in the scheme of things. Mookie Betts, if he ever makes the majors, was not going to be Pedroia's replacement, unless you think Pedey is done in three years.
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Post by rismith on Jul 23, 2013 16:51:45 GMT -5
Maybe but you could make a case that in 4 years Pedey is not remotely the same guy and Mookie is a 24 year old stud and you don't want to trade away a Hanley (with better attitude) type kid because you are stuck with an aging veteran for 3 more years. Fun to debate but bottom line is hopefully Pedey is solid for 4-5 more years and with inflation the Sox could handle his contract and make him a super sub utility or platoon him at that point. Honestly, I think if Pedey stinks in 5 years...he will retire before hurting the team. Moving on...now what does this mean for Jacoby? ? Would he take a similar deal? I doubt it and think this signals the end for him.
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Post by orcoaster on Jul 23, 2013 17:12:35 GMT -5
According to Fangraphs, Pedroia has supplied $104 million worth of value on his current $40M deal. I suspect he'll be good for the extension too.
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Post by bjb406 on Jul 23, 2013 17:13:42 GMT -5
The parties agreed to replace Pedroia's 2015 team option at $11, so effectively it is 6 additional years and approx. $90mm. No trade clause. Fair deal for both sides. So starting in 2015, it's 7 years and 101 million dollars OR $15.86 million per. where the heck did you get 15.86? 100/7 = 14.28
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Post by burythehammer on Jul 23, 2013 20:54:56 GMT -5
Under. Under for every dime I have. I don't like the deal. I love Pedroia, but I've never looked at the guy and seen anything but a player who's body is going to be completely spent by the time he's 32. We'll see. I hope you're a wealthy man. Can I collect at Pedroia's HOF induction in 15 years? I really don't understand how any Red Sox fan can not love this deal unless you hate Dustin Pedroia giving the team free money with every contract he signs. It's probably not as ridiculous as his first deal, but potentially tens of millions in surplus value here.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 23, 2013 21:28:59 GMT -5
Cano is probably going to get $200 to $240 million. You're joking right? He's going to be 31 after this season. The only reason I hesitate to say you are completely insane is because there are incredibly wreckless owners out there and GM's who don't give a **** because they won't be around to suffer the results of the god awful contract, but please tell me you are banking on this happening and not thinking he's worth that in any world. I don't see how a team gives him that type of deal in the current world where pretty much every big deal has turned into a disaster. Pujols didn't even make it the first season before sucking. Cano has been linked. He'll probably go the Pujols route and stop taking them after he signs his big deal to keep his legacy intact. Pujols is a sneaky guy.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Jul 23, 2013 21:31:26 GMT -5
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Post by sammo420 on Jul 23, 2013 22:04:50 GMT -5
Under. Under for every dime I have. I don't like the deal. I love Pedroia, but I've never looked at the guy and seen anything but a player who's body is going to be completely spent by the time he's 32. We'll see. I hope you're a wealthy man. Can I collect at Pedroia's HOF induction in 15 years? I really don't understand how any Red Sox fan can not love this deal unless you hate Dustin Pedroia giving the team free money with every contract he signs. It's probably not as ridiculous as his first deal, but potentially tens of millions in surplus value here. I don't think its hate for Pedroia as much as us remembering previous bad contracts that we couldn't wait to get out from under. We think that at some point in time this is going to be the same although with inflation the way it has been I don't think the $$$ is going to be as bad as people think. Dustin's regression is another story, I agree in thinking he's going to age poorly.
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 23, 2013 22:26:00 GMT -5
Cano is probably going to get $200 to $240 million. You're joking right? He's going to be 31 after this season. The only reason I hesitate to say you are completely insane is because there are incredibly wreckless owners out there and GM's who don't give a **** because they won't be around to suffer the results of the god awful contract, but please tell me you are banking on this happening and not thinking he's worth that in any world. I don't see how a team gives him that type of deal in the current world where pretty much every big deal has turned into a disaster. Pujols didn't even make it the first season before sucking. Cano has been linked. He'll probably go the Pujols route and stop taking them after he signs his big deal to keep his legacy intact. Pujols is a sneaky guy. I didn't say it was a good idea. I just think that's what he'll get.
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Post by raftsox on Jul 24, 2013 4:44:01 GMT -5
Not really, Cano will be a free agent. Completely different situation. I think that's the point. Lock him up ahead of time for cheaper. It's the whole reason they did this. ... and as far as second basemen go there's Pedroia, Cano and a huge chasm.
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Post by burythehammer on Jul 24, 2013 5:26:42 GMT -5
I hope you're a wealthy man. Can I collect at Pedroia's HOF induction in 15 years? I really don't understand how any Red Sox fan can not love this deal unless you hate Dustin Pedroia giving the team free money with every contract he signs. It's probably not as ridiculous as his first deal, but potentially tens of millions in surplus value here. I don't think its hate for Pedroia as much as us remembering previous bad contracts that we couldn't wait to get out from under. We think that at some point in time this is going to be the same although with inflation the way it has been I don't think the $$$ is going to be as bad as people think. Dustin's regression is another story, I agree in thinking he's going to age poorly. Dude, read the entire post before responding, please. You completely missed my point. Literally every smart person I see talking about this deal thinks it's borderline laughably team friendly. I don't know when Cherington ever said the Red Sox would never sign another long term deal, I must have missed that memo.
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Post by joshv02 on Jul 24, 2013 5:49:53 GMT -5
About a month ago I looked at Pedroia contract and thought it was perfect for the organization. This extension is three years to long. Length reminds me of Crawford contract for a 30 yr. old. Sox are going to eat last two years of this deal ($28 Million). He'll basically be paid $20 million per year for five hopefully productive years and amortize it, from his perspective, over seven years. Realistically, what kind of deal would a 32 year old Pedroia have received on the free agent market and would it have beat what the Red Sox would have paid him two years from now. Phenomenal work by Dustin's agent. Red Sox not so much. He wouldn't be expected to be worth zero over the final two years. Do we expect 20 WAR over 7 seasons? I don't see how you anyone cannot project that. That's worth >100mm. The Red Sox took on downside risk. That's a contract. Pedroia is being paid for possibly as little as 65% of his expected value. That's the trade off.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 24, 2013 8:03:09 GMT -5
I think it's a lot and I think signing a guy who is entering his 30's, 2 years before necessary is not good business. It's a risk you don't have to take. I get why people say, if there is a player you do this for its Pedey, but I don't think that's sound decision making.
Is there a risk for the Sox to wait? Surely, but in today's baseball world (post steroid era), the game is trending back to where it used to be which is players in their 20s dominate the game. Pedey is also always battling injuries which take a toll on young guys.
That being said, its not a terrible deal. The AAV isn't crippling by any stretch and I'm confident Pedey is one of those players not driven by money so there won't be a drop in that regard.
Honestly, in 2 years, I'd say goodbye if people fears of a 200m contract rang true. Would've not been fun, but StL is not missing Pujols.
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Post by elguapo on Jul 24, 2013 8:05:59 GMT -5
If Pedroia ends up blocking a 2b prospect you deal the prospect for value at another position. That's what trades are for. That sounds easy to do, but because the trade market is rather illiquid (because there are only 29 other GMs, most of whom won't be interested in a given prospect at any given time, GMs are risk adverse, etc.), it can often be hard getting fair value for a blocked prospect. That's what GMs are for, to get the most out of their assets, find the right buyer. In this case most teams would love to have a legit major league ready second baseman making the minimum and controlled through his prime years, so the market would likely be healthy. Don't worry, if Pedroia tanks near the end there's a good chance injuries will play a major role and he'll spend quality time on the 60-day and we can all breathe a sigh of relief.
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Post by buffs4444 on Jul 24, 2013 8:49:07 GMT -5
Salary inflation should eat up a big chunk of value differential over the second half of the contract anyway (barring some "awakening" on the part of society as a whole). Not worried about this contract in the least. In context fair all around, even better that its to a player like DP.
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Post by edwardcc on Jul 24, 2013 9:20:20 GMT -5
So starting in 2015, it's 7 years and 101 million dollars OR $15.86 million per. where the heck did you get 15.86? 100/7 = 14.28 I have no idea 101/7 is 14.4. Must keyed in something wrong, still 14.4 million avg for the 7 years beginning in 2015.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 24, 2013 9:29:16 GMT -5
111/7 = 15.86. Input error.
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Post by semperfisox on Jul 24, 2013 9:51:41 GMT -5
Pedroia is one that I don't think will have a problem producing throughout this deal even at 35-37 years old.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Jul 24, 2013 9:58:49 GMT -5
Salary inflation should eat up a big chunk of value differential over the second half of the contract anyway (barring some "awakening" on the part of society as a whole). Not worried about this contract in the least. In context fair all around, even better that its to a player like DP. Yeah, I made that point above ... we're judging "14 million dollars" in current dollars, but it will *likely* be worth quite a bit less to the Sox in 2020 than it is now. The downside risk is real, but it's not reckless in any way. It's fairly well calibrated by the Sox, I think.
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