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hank
Rookie
Posts: 102 
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Post by hank on Mar 5, 2014 12:43:43 GMT -5
I think Webster just suffers from baby face syndrome. If we are talking about nerves/mental toughness, something I feel like I really can't judge, I think we should also call out that Webster is only 24, only made 7 MLB starts, and only been in AAA for a year. Way too soon to declare he is not mentally tough enough for the MLB. I'm a Webster fan, he is in my top 3 favorite prospects with Bradly + Bogaerts. He might never put it all together, but if he does he has the highest ceiling of any pitching prospect we have. Hope you're right. It has been only one start in ST. Supposedly he did some things to simplify his delivery, that will take time to see if it helps. And he'll be getting more chances in Pawtucket. My thinking is although this may not be sell high time it's sell a lot higher than it will be at the end of the year if the results remain uneven. |
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 6, 2014 13:31:58 GMT -5
It's a shame today's game isn't on tv. I bet Webster looks super confident after giving up just 1 hit to Stanton in the 1st.
edit: I wish I could have watched this. I'd be shocked if he didn't make an adjustment when looking at this line:
3IP 1H 0R 0BB 1K
7-1 GB/FB <----especially here
30 pitches
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 6, 2014 14:58:18 GMT -5
Looks like he had the mojo working on that sinker. He's surely got the stuff. It's all about harnessing it...
If he can establish the fastball, he's going to be devastating since the changeup is almost unhittable as it dives through the zone. Hitters often just flail at it as it goes by. But he has to set that up with command of his sinker, just as he was quoted. That's the only way it all works.
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Post by soxfanatic on Mar 6, 2014 15:41:01 GMT -5
Scott Lauber ?@scottlauber 3 min.
A few days ago, Lester and Lackey pulled aside Allen Webster for a video session that led to mechanical changes. 3 scoreless innings today
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Post by eagleeye9184 on Mar 6, 2014 16:45:29 GMT -5
I love that the veteran starters are setting good examples for the up-and-comers. Factor that on top of whatever the pitching coaches (Nieves, Pedro, Farrell) and catchers bring to their mentoring process. They are grooming the PawSox arms to be true professionals. It's a long way from the chicken-and-beer days. I love this team.
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Post by eagleeye9184 on Mar 6, 2014 16:47:07 GMT -5
I've frequently heard the comp of Webster to Kevin Brown (the good one from the pre-Yankees days) with a power sinker. Or D Lowe when he had his power sinker rolling. If Webster can have anything close to either of those comps, then the Punto trade looks even filthier than is has proven to be.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 6, 2014 17:41:57 GMT -5
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Mar 6, 2014 18:45:59 GMT -5
Webster looked pretty good last spring didn't he. Who knows how this turns out. All we can do is hope.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 6, 2014 18:51:38 GMT -5
Very cool. I remember last year, when we watched him in Seattle, he got away from his delivery to the point where he was launching his pitches almost like an infielder. Maybe this is what it was all about.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Mar 7, 2014 7:23:39 GMT -5
Back in November I pegged this guy to have a huge bounce back year. The fact that it was more nerves than anything that made his control go nuts is a solid sign. Granted I would like a pitcher who has steel nerves as much as anyone else but let's face it, how would any of us deal with being 24 years old and being tasked with not only pitching in front of 40,000 people, but doing it in a place where every single move is scrutinized by fans and media? This isn't Tampa. Webster as soon as next year will be tasked with going out and pitching every 5th day against the best players in the world.
His main enemies will continue to be control and emotions. But lucky for him he seems to do quite well the seasons after he struggles. Whoever called him Derek Lowe is probably looking at best case scenario. He needs to use his sinker more and mix in his off speed offerings. The American League will hammer the crap out of his fastball. If he can model himself after Lowe on the field he will make that Dodgers trade more of a heist than the Slocumb deal.
To be honest, I like De La Rosa slightly more in terms of reaching his full potential. I look at him at worst case being an Octavio Dotel guy in the back end of the pen. Now that's not a knock on him if you'll remember correctly, Dotel had closer stuff in his prime and failed miserably at the role because he mentally couldn't handle it. As a starter the main thing with De La Rosa will once again be control. It's going to be interesting how he handles his 2nd full season back from TJ. Another thing to mention is that perhaps part of the struggles with both players stem from the expectations of outside the organization as living up to the guys they received for Adrian Gonzalez. I like how De La Rosa can get his velocity up and if he is still working with Pedro I think he's going to accomplish big things in 2014. Just my thoughts.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 7, 2014 7:59:20 GMT -5
Back in November I pegged this guy to have a huge bounce back year. The fact that it was more nerves than anything that made his control go nuts is a solid sign. Granted I would like a pitcher who has steel nerves as much as anyone else but let's face it, how would any of us deal with being 24 years old and being tasked with not only pitching in front of 40,000 people, but doing it in a place where every single move is scrutinized by fans and media? This isn't Tampa. Webster as soon as next year will be tasked with going out and pitching every 5th day against the best players in the world. His main enemies will continue to be control and emotions. But lucky for him he seems to do quite well the seasons after he struggles. Whoever called him Derek Lowe is probably looking at best case scenario. He needs to use his sinker more and mix in his off speed offerings. The American League will hammer the crap out of his fastball. If he can model himself after Lowe on the field he will make that Dodgers trade more of a heist than the Slocumb deal. To be honest, I like De La Rosa slightly more in terms of reaching his full potential. I look at him at worst case being an Octavio Dotel guy in the back end of the pen. Now that's not a knock on him if you'll remember correctly, Dotel had closer stuff in his prime and failed miserably at the role because he mentally couldn't handle it. As a starter the main thing with De La Rosa will once again be control. It's going to be interesting how he handles his 2nd full season back from TJ. Another thing to mention is that perhaps part of the struggles with both players stem from the expectations of outside the organization as living up to the guys they received for Adrian Gonzalez. I like how De La Rosa can get his velocity up and if he is still working with Pedro I think he's going to accomplish big things in 2014. Just my thoughts. I'm curious if you even read the article that is being discussed. |
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Post by ramireja on Mar 7, 2014 8:20:18 GMT -5
Back in November I pegged this guy to have a huge bounce back year. The fact that it was more nerves than anything that made his control go nuts is a solid sign. Granted I would like a pitcher who has steel nerves as much as anyone else but let's face it, how would any of us deal with being 24 years old and being tasked with not only pitching in front of 40,000 people, but doing it in a place where every single move is scrutinized by fans and media? This isn't Tampa. Webster as soon as next year will be tasked with going out and pitching every 5th day against the best players in the world. His main enemies will continue to be control and emotions. But lucky for him he seems to do quite well the seasons after he struggles. Whoever called him Derek Lowe is probably looking at best case scenario. He needs to use his sinker more and mix in his off speed offerings. The American League will hammer the crap out of his fastball. If he can model himself after Lowe on the field he will make that Dodgers trade more of a heist than the Slocumb deal. To be honest, I like De La Rosa slightly more in terms of reaching his full potential. I look at him at worst case being an Octavio Dotel guy in the back end of the pen. Now that's not a knock on him if you'll remember correctly, Dotel had closer stuff in his prime and failed miserably at the role because he mentally couldn't handle it. As a starter the main thing with De La Rosa will once again be control. It's going to be interesting how he handles his 2nd full season back from TJ. Another thing to mention is that perhaps part of the struggles with both players stem from the expectations of outside the organization as living up to the guys they received for Adrian Gonzalez. I like how De La Rosa can get his velocity up and if he is still working with Pedro I think he's going to accomplish big things in 2014. Just my thoughts. I'm curious if you even read the article that is being discussed. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 7, 2014 8:22:03 GMT -5
Cause and effect are confounding things. People who think professional athletes are mentally strong and infallible "because they've bee under so much pressure their entire lives",dismiss the notion that pro athletes get nervous to the point of it affecting their performance. Therefore, Webster is only nervous because he physically can't repeat his delivery.
Every pitcher loses his arm slot or landing point, even if slightly, at some point during a start or a warmup. At the same time, every guy can execute off long periods of time, especially in bullpen sessions or low pressure environments. The guys who are confident and strong mentally correct on the fly or in the moment quickly, often the very next pitch. Others who aren't let it snow ball. Lowe is a good example of this. He'd lose it at times and let his front shoulder fly open.
Now poor repeat ability is physical, but it's also mental. What comes first? I am not sure,but they work side by side. The reason great pitchers get into routines is for their mental stability, not physical. When a pitcher gets a mechanical problem in a game, a good pitcher can slow things down in his head, go through his mental checklist and fix his physical problem while keeping himself calm.
Webster has a lot of work to do both physically and mentally, and having the veterans help him get a routine, identify his causes and effects and develop a mental checklist on the mound should help him slow the game down and repeat his delivery.
It's physical and mental for him, but he's not just a nervous person.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 7, 2014 9:26:34 GMT -5
I'm curious if you even read the article that is being discussed. Right. I mean, we looked at a guy's face on TV. QED. Add: remember when everyone was sure that Daniel Bard's struggles where all about confidence? And then it turned out he needed surgery? Yeah. |
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Post by jdb on Mar 7, 2014 11:39:05 GMT -5
Hopefully he can build on yesterday's outing and the advice from our Vets. Sometimes all it takes is a minor adjustment to take off. If I remember correctly Matt Harvey made one in the last few weeks of 2012 and was able to breakout last year. Not trying to compare the two but giving an example.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 7, 2014 12:06:23 GMT -5
Cause and effect are confounding things. People who think professional athletes are mentally strong and infallible "because they've bee under so much pressure their entire lives",dismiss the notion that pro athletes get nervous to the point of it affecting their performance. Therefore, Webster is only nervous because he physically can't repeat his delivery. Every pitcher loses his arm slot or landing point, even if slightly, at some point during a start or a warmup. At the same time, every guy can execute off long periods of time, especially in bullpen sessions or low pressure environments. The guys who are confident and strong mentally correct on the fly or in the moment quickly, often the very next pitch. Others who aren't let it snow ball. Lowe is a good example of this. He'd lose it at times and let his front shoulder fly open. Now poor repeat ability is physical, but it's also mental. What comes first? I am not sure,but they work side by side. The reason great pitchers get into routines is for their mental stability, not physical. When a pitcher gets a mechanical problem in a game, a good pitcher can slow things down in his head, go through his mental checklist and fix his physical problem while keeping himself calm. Webster has a lot of work to do both physically and mentally, and having the veterans help him get a routine, identify his causes and effects and develop a mental checklist on the mound should help him slow the game down and repeat his delivery. It's physical and mental for him, but he's not just a nervous person. And then there's Bronson Arroyo who has never thrown the same pitch twice. He's such a freak of nature. |
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 7, 2014 12:13:43 GMT -5
...Whoever called him Derek Lowe is probably looking at best case scenario... No, not really. Webster and Lowe have, to my mind, a passing similarity at best. They can[could] both sink their fastballs, and they both had a slider. Aside from that they are very different pitchers. Webster can work at 95+ and take it up to 97-98 on occasions. It's very unusual to have a sinker that works at that speed. Lowe never got his much above 92-93. Early in his career he used a slider as his secondary offering, and it had decent bite. He even abandoned that towards the end. Webster has one of those also, and its not bad by all accounts and from what I've seen (on video), though I'd grade it below Lowe's at this point. But his go to pitch, the one he rubs hitters out with, is a killer changeup that looks just like the fastball out of the hand. He can fade that away from left handers and make them look silly. And because his sinker works at the higher speed, the changeup, which comes in at 87-88 leaves hitters with very little time to make their decision. Lowe had no such weapon in his arsenal. Moreover Webster has a fourth pitch, a curveball, which also flashes potential. Where Lowe did have it all over Webster is command and control. He could put his pitches where he wanted them, and just about any time. Once he got into his mid-20s he had a very tight package that only included those two pitches, but it didn't matter. They also looked the same coming out of his hand, but they did two completely different things, the hard sinker dropping through the zone - on either side of the plate - and the slider diving away from right-handers. He worked very quickly. Before you knew it, seven innings had rolled by and there was often little to show for it. Webster can only hope to get to that level of efficiency at this point. But when it comes to the stuff, there's not much to compare. |
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Post by kungfuizzy on Mar 7, 2014 13:53:34 GMT -5
...Whoever called him Derek Lowe is probably looking at best case scenario... No, not really. Webster and Lowe have, to my mind, a passing similarity at best. They can[could] both sink their fastballs, and they both had a slider. Aside from that they are very different pitchers. Webster can work at 95+ and take it up to 97-98 on occasions. It's very unusual to have a sinker that works at that speed. Lowe never got his much above 92-93. Early in his career he used a slider as his secondary offering, and it had decent bite. He even abandoned that towards the end. Webster has one of those also, and its not bad by all accounts and from what I've seen (on video), though I'd grade it below Lowe's at this point. But his go to pitch, the one he rubs hitters out with, is a killer changeup that looks just like the fastball out of the hand. He can fade that away from left handers and make them look silly. And because his sinker works at the higher speed, the changeup, which comes in at 87-88 leaves hitters with very little time to make their decision. Lowe had no such weapon in his arsenal. Moreover Webster has a fourth pitch, a curveball, which also flashes potential. Where Lowe did have it all over Webster is command and control. He could put his pitches where he wanted them, and just about any time. Once he got into his mid-20s he had a very tight package that only included those two pitches, but it didn't matter. They also looked the same coming out of his hand, but they did two completely different things, the hard sinker dropping through the zone - on either side of the plate - and the slider diving away from right-handers. He worked very quickly. Before you knew it, seven innings had rolled by and there was often little to show for it. Webster can only hope to get to that level of efficiency at this point. But when it comes to the stuff, there's not much to compare. I agree in terms of pure stuff Webster has the edge. I was talking in terms of putting it all together that Lowe would be probably the best case scenario. I like Webster but I don't know if he could put his stuff together to become that front line guy. Lowe was actually a front line guy for a small window of time too. I think people forget how good he was when he was really on. I do also have the "Derek Lowe" face engraved into my brain however. My three things that I would like to see him do are stop trying to throw the ball 120 mph by a hitter, mix in his secondary offerings a bit more, and learn better control. He seems like a mature guy so the anxiety stuff should be corrected with age. I love the change up and would love to see more of it. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 8, 2014 7:21:10 GMT -5
I'm much more convinced that we have posters (plural) with personal security issues than I am that we have a lot of professional athletes with issues. Everybody wants to project their own problems onto others, misery loves company.
Let's get a grip people, you are pretty much all alone inside your heads, get over it. Being a wuss doesn't mean everybody is a wuss. What a sad lot. I'm a combat vet and I'm pretty sure I can pick out the guys I wouldn't want covering my back
ADD: I am not talking to the large group that obviously knows Webster on a personal basis.
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Mar 8, 2014 8:10:41 GMT -5
Is Max Scherzer a good comp for Webster?
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Post by soxfanatic on Mar 8, 2014 8:55:30 GMT -5
Is Max Scherzer a good comp for Webster? Cy Young caliber pitchers usually make for horrific comps. |
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Mar 8, 2014 10:48:48 GMT -5
Is Max Scherzer a good comp for Webster? Cy Young caliber pitchers usually make for horrific comps. Scherzer was pretty much an inconsistent #3 up until this past year. The mid-to-upper-90s fastball w/movement, the change-up, and the slider from the same arm-slot lines up with Webster. Scherzer took until his age-29 season to really live up to his potential and capitalize on his stuff. His control inside and outside of the strike zone was what really made the difference in his earlier seasons and this season. Webster has similar stuff/ceiling, but it could take him a while to harness his stuff and master his control/command, as it did Scherzer. |
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Post by soxfanatic on Mar 8, 2014 11:05:12 GMT -5
Cy Young caliber pitchers usually make for horrific comps. Scherzer was pretty much an inconsistent #3 up until this past year. The mid-to-upper-90s fastball w/movement, the change-up, and the slider from the same arm-slot lines up with Webster. Scherzer took until his age-29 season to really live up to his potential and capitalize on his stuff. His control inside and outside of the strike zone was what really made the difference in his earlier seasons and this season. Webster has similar stuff/ceiling, but it could take him a while to harness his stuff and master his control/command, as it did Scherzer. What's the point in comparing the #86 best prospect in baseball to a Cy Young award winner? Scherzer is one of the few pitchers to put it all together. Until Webster proves he can command the ball and get results at the Major League level, the comp is outrageous. |
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Mar 8, 2014 11:51:59 GMT -5
Scherzer was pretty much an inconsistent #3 up until this past year. The mid-to-upper-90s fastball w/movement, the change-up, and the slider from the same arm-slot lines up with Webster. Scherzer took until his age-29 season to really live up to his potential and capitalize on his stuff. His control inside and outside of the strike zone was what really made the difference in his earlier seasons and this season. Webster has similar stuff/ceiling, but it could take him a while to harness his stuff and master his control/command, as it did Scherzer. What's the point in comparing the #86 best prospect in baseball to a Cy Young award winner? Scherzer is one of the few pitchers to put it all together. Until Webster proves he can command the ball and get results at the Major League level, the comp is outrageous. What's the point of making player comps at all? I'm saying that Scherzer's season last year is the ceiling for Webster. I'm not expecting him to do anything like that, I would be quite surprised if he did anything like that, but Scherzer couldn't control the ball consistently until the last 2 seasons. What if the Tigers gave up on him after the 2011 season, a season in which he posted career highs in ERA, WHIP, hits, runs, earned runs, and home runs and was awful in the postseason? Would he end up never feeling comfortable again, bouncing from team to team, becoming one of the many pitching prospects with superb stuff and no command that flamed out? In 2 years, Webster could be in the same boat with struggles and the team might be forced to move him if they deem that other pitching prospects are better and deserve his spot in the rotation. Why is this comp so outrageous when people have been throwing the Buchholtz comp out there? Buch was a better pitcher than Scherzer last year when he was healthy. Why do we turn player comps into value comps? If you think that Webster can offer similar value to Buch then don't say that they are similar players. If Buch was a horse like Scherzer, would that comp then become outrageous? Is it because Buch can't stay healthy that it is easier to throw his name out in player comps because his value is less then his ability would suggest? |
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 8, 2014 13:19:37 GMT -5
What's the point of making player comps at all? Presumably it's to educate our predictions of what a player's career might look like based on what the careers of similar players who came before him. I'm saying that Scherzer's season last year is the ceiling for Webster. I'm not expecting him to do anything like that, I would be quite surprised if he did anything like that, but Scherzer couldn't control the ball consistently until the last 2 seasons. I'm sorry, but you're making stuff up here. For one, Scherzer has never had particularly bad control. Prior to his last two seasons, his career ratios were: 3.1 BB/9, 8.7 K/9, 2.85 K/BB. In his last two seasons, he's been at 2.6 BB/9, 10.5 K/9, 4.06 K/BB. So basically he went from a solid number three starter verging on number two status to a solid two verging on ace status. That's a pretty big jump, but if Webster is going to get to Max Scherzer '13 levels, you're talking about going from a prospect who might not even be a starter in the end to a MLB starter pitching at near-ace levels. That's an insane jump. It's not even close to the same thing. What if the Tigers gave up on him after the 2011 season, a season in which he posted career highs in ERA, WHIP, hits, runs, earned runs, and home runs and was awful in the postseason? This is a hilariously terrible selection of stats. Besides the fact that you're double-counting everything (hits and WHIP, runs and ERA), you're choosing the stats that say the LEAST about a pitcher's underlying ability. Scherzer had a bad ERA year in 2011 but he was essentially the same pitcher he'd always been. In fact he posted what was at the time a career high K/BB. The idea that the Tigers might have "given up" on him after a year in which he pitched nearly 200 innings, won 15 games, had good K/BB numbers, didn't show any loss of velo/stuff... I mean, really? What fantasy world does this ever happen in? Do hamburgers eat people there? Would he end up never feeling comfortable again, bouncing from team to team, becoming one of the many pitching prospects with superb stuff and no command that flamed out? In 2 years, Webster could be in the same boat with struggles and the team might be forced to move him if they deem that other pitching prospects are better and deserve his spot in the rotation. This is where we go completely off the rails. Why are you even characterizing Scherzer post-2011 as "one of the many pitching prospects"? Prospect!? He'd thrown over six hundred very good major league inning that point. Again, the idea that the Tigers might have given up on him at that point is absurd, but what's even crazier is imagining that this would have somehow ruined his career. In fact if the Tigers had given up on him after 2011 there would likely have been close to 29 other teams who would want him, the Tigers would have been a laughing stock and Dave Dombrowski would have lost his job and his friends and loved ones would have insisted on a thorough psychiatric evaluation. This scenario is so absurd that I don't even quite know how to address it. The point of a comp is to compare similar players. You know what the point of a comp isn't? Taking the best pitcher of 2013 and completely re-inventing his prior career so that it seems similar to a prospect you're trying to dream on. |
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