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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 20, 2014 12:00:21 GMT -5
Kolton Wong is a pretty good prospect in his own right. Call is a bit crazy to rank Betts ahead of him, unless there is something he really doesn't like about Wong. I wonder where he has Betts on his personal Sox top 10. I feel if Wong were in the Sox system right now he'd be ranked in the top 3. Him and JBjr are a flip of the coin, I guess give JBjr the edge due to his elite D in center and his plate discipline.
Betts so far is a guy who came from the depths of the after dominating A ball. A ton to like, but if he flounders next year it will be easy to explain for a reason. Let's temper expectations.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 20, 2014 12:08:57 GMT -5
Callis absolutely loves Betts. I don't remember where he has him in his Red Sox list, but IIRC, it's around 6? He seems like such a Red Sox homer though so I take him with a grain of salt.
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Post by pedroiaesque on Jan 20, 2014 12:10:47 GMT -5
One of the most interesting parts of these top 10 lists is seeing the impressive Sox prospect depth in another way. We are represented in the top 10 at every position (safe assumption that we'll see Cecchini and JBJ the next couple days) except RHP, and that's more a reflection of the depth of RHP pitchers than a knock on our prospects there (considering that we'll likely see one of our RHP on the top 100).
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 20, 2014 12:35:52 GMT -5
BTW, seeing those grades how is Betts not ranked #1? His power and run are higher rated than Wong and other tools are equal. Figured this was coming, and it's a fair question. In addition to what's been said above, remember that tools aren't the be-all, end-all. You need the skills to put those tools to good use, among other things. If baseball were just tools, Dustin Pedroia wouldn't have an MVP on his mantle. Personally, I'm fine with Betts being third on that list. As mentioned, Wong may not have as high a ceiling, but his floor is way higher. Odor is farther along and has a much better track record.
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Post by h11233 on Jan 20, 2014 12:52:37 GMT -5
Always thought Rougned has the coolest name in baseball. On another note, they have Betts arm strength at 45, our profile has him at solid average to better (55). A 45 arm isn't going to play shortstop. I tend to trust the Red Sox in knowing if he has the arm for SS. They haven't been making many development mistakes lately. I have no idea if that 45 rating is simply because they moved him from SS to 2B or if it's because of actual scouting. Agreeance. See: Bogaerts, Xander I was expecting Xander to look out of place at SS based on what was being written about him. Since his call-up all the talking heads seem to have completely reversed their opinions. I'd say it's safe to assume the Sox know their players better than anyone else and they have a plan.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 20, 2014 13:16:58 GMT -5
I tend to trust the Red Sox in knowing if he has the arm for SS. They haven't been making many development mistakes lately. I have no idea if that 45 rating is simply because they moved him from SS to 2B or if it's because of actual scouting. Agreeance. See: Bogaerts, Xander I was expecting Xander to look out of place at SS based on what was being written about him. Since his call-up all the talking heads seem to have completely reversed their opinions. I'd say it's safe to assume the Sox know their players better than anyone else and they have a plan. Eh, unless you were looking at pre-2012 scouting reports, most had come around in saying that Bogaerts would be an ok shortstop. Not great, not bad, but ok. I think that's what we got. I just think people tend to forget that a major league shortstop is a very good defender, and they expect like, New York-Penn League average (if you've been to enough Spinners games, you know what I'm talking about) when a player isn't described as the next Andrelton or Iglesias. And as for "trusting the Red Sox in knowing if he has the arm for SS," doesn't the fact that they moved him from short during the 2012 season kind of answer that question? Remember, other than when he was playing with Hanley, Pedroia didn't move to 2B for good until the majors basically. Most of the reason SS is even a thought right now is a) there's a guy at 2B in Boston you may have heard of, and b) there's a dicey Marrero-Betts-Coyle MIF logjam in Portland coming.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 20, 2014 13:26:10 GMT -5
Agreeance. See: Bogaerts, Xander I was expecting Xander to look out of place at SS based on what was being written about him. Since his call-up all the talking heads seem to have completely reversed their opinions. I'd say it's safe to assume the Sox know their players better than anyone else and they have a plan. Eh, unless you were looking at pre-2012 scouting reports, most had come around in saying that Bogaerts would be an ok shortstop. Not great, not bad, but ok. I think that's what we got. I just think people tend to forget that a major league shortstop is a very good defender, and they expect like, New York-Penn League average (if you've been to enough Spinners games, you know what I'm talking about) when a player isn't described as the next Andrelton or Iglesias. And as for "trusting the Red Sox in knowing if he has the arm for SS," doesn't the fact that they moved him from short during the 2012 season kind of answer that question? Remember, other than when he was playing with Hanley, Pedroia didn't move to 2B for good until the majors basically. Most of the reason SS is even a thought right now is a) there's a guy at 2B in Boston you may have heard of, and b) there's a dicey Marrero-Betts-Coyle MIF logjam in Portland coming. Wasn't Betts moved to 2B when there was a SS logjam? Vinicio maybe, when he was more highly thought of than Betts?
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 20, 2014 15:39:02 GMT -5
Betts and Vinicio weren't teammates until this year - no conflict caused the move.
I don't see how Coyle is enough of anything to affect Betts or Marrero. He doesn't really even deserve a promotion to AA but there is no point to keeping him in A ball again.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jan 20, 2014 15:58:25 GMT -5
I'd love to see Coyle stay healthy for a full year and see what he can do then. He may still surprise us.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jan 20, 2014 16:08:43 GMT -5
Betts and Vinicio weren't teammates until this year - no conflict caused the move. I don't see how Coyle is enough of anything to affect Betts or Marrero. He doesn't really even deserve a promotion to AA but there is no point to keeping him in A ball again. Deven Marrero may not be the only reason Betts moved off short, but he almost certainly expedited the decision to move him. Betts started 2012 playing SS. He played SS every game before Marrero signed. He also played SS while Marrero broke in as a DH (I believe due to injury, but I'm not positive). In total he played the first 12 games at SS. He then spent a week switching between SS and 2B (with Marrero switching between DH and SS). After that it was almost exclusively Marrero at SS and Betts at 2B. I'm sure his arm and actions at SS were a factor, but I can't help but think that had he been a better prospect at that time then he would not have been moved so soon. This gives me some hope that he may be adequate moving back to SS.
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Post by godot on Jan 20, 2014 16:14:56 GMT -5
Nice video of Betts on MLB top second minor league second baseman. It was only batting practice, but the way the ball shot off his bat, whamo. The kids ahead of him have hit the majors, which means he could be the number one minor league prospect. Stretching it but.... The kid is still a "prospect", but if he has developed a more advanced batting approach and is hitting the ball with more authority, they may have something.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 20, 2014 16:17:12 GMT -5
Betts and Vinicio weren't teammates until this year - no conflict caused the move. I don't see how Coyle is enough of anything to affect Betts or Marrero. He doesn't really even deserve a promotion to AA but there is no point to keeping him in A ball again. Deven Marrero may not be the only reason Betts moved off short, but he almost certainly expedited the decision to move him. Betts started 2012 playing SS. He played SS every game before Marrero signed. He also played SS while Marrero broke in as a DH (I believe due to injury, but I'm not positive). In total he played the first 12 games at SS. He then spent a week switching between SS and 2B (with Marrero switching between DH and SS). After that it was almost exclusively Marrero at SS and Betts at 2B. I'm sure his arm and actions at SS were a factor, but I can't help but think that had he been a better prospect at that time then he would not have been moved so soon. This gives me some hope that he may be adequate moving back to SS. Ah, that's who it was. I knew a more highly regarded prospect was what prompted Betts' move off SS. I wonder if Betts will start getting some games in CF as well?
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jan 20, 2014 16:17:34 GMT -5
Agreeance. See: Bogaerts, Xander I was expecting Xander to look out of place at SS based on what was being written about him. Since his call-up all the talking heads seem to have completely reversed their opinions. I'd say it's safe to assume the Sox know their players better than anyone else and they have a plan. Eh, unless you were looking at pre-2012 scouting reports, most had come around in saying that Bogaerts would be an ok shortstop. Not great, not bad, but ok. I think that's what we got. I just think people tend to forget that a major league shortstop is a very good defender, and they expect like, New York-Penn League average (if you've been to enough Spinners games, you know what I'm talking about) when a player isn't described as the next Andrelton or Iglesias. And as for "trusting the Red Sox in knowing if he has the arm for SS," doesn't the fact that they moved him from short during the 2012 season kind of answer that question? Remember, other than when he was playing with Hanley, Pedroia didn't move to 2B for good until the majors basically. Most of the reason SS is even a thought right now is a) there's a guy at 2B in Boston you may have heard of, and b) there's a dicey Marrero-Betts-Coyle MIF logjam in Portland coming. I think part of this is also that Bogaerts, like defensively questionable minor leaguers like Boggs, Youkilis and Nava, has really worked hard and smartly at his defense and is just a lot quicker and better now. For Betts there were questions about both his arm and his overall SS actions (see Mookie thread), which hard work could overcome.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jan 20, 2014 18:31:04 GMT -5
Coyle's 16 HR in less than 250 AB is nothing to sneeze at even with the rest of his numbers under performing. He's a good fielder. That's huge pop for a 2nd baseman, and he clearly can stick at 2nd.
Let's see what he does in the upper levels. I recognize that the other numbers are not looking good but he could absolutely be a breakout guy also.
Betts has clearly eclipsed him but I'm not sure I would take Marrero over him even now. Marrero is probably a reserve middle infielder to me, or a starter on a 2nd division team. A defense first guy with very little bat. His best shot is if the level of SS play stays as bad as it's been recently. I like defense first guys at SS but Colye is a fine defender also. With probably a better bat. Give Marrero more positional value.
What seems incongruous is Coyle's emphasis on the HR. He seems fixated on them from what little I've read about him. He's not going to get so many mistake pitches to hit, and fastballs to hit later on. I'd like to see him just work on developing the ability to take the ball to RF more just to improve, and improving his overall approach. It may have been a mistake to bring him up to Greenville so quickly.
He should not worry about his overall stats as much but focus more on development.
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Post by h11233 on Jan 20, 2014 19:46:57 GMT -5
And as for "trusting the Red Sox in knowing if he has the arm for SS," doesn't the fact that they moved him from short during the 2012 season kind of answer that question? Remember, other than when he was playing with Hanley, Pedroia didn't move to 2B for good until the majors basically. Most of the reason SS is even a thought right now is a) there's a guy at 2B in Boston you may have heard of, and b) there's a dicey Marrero-Betts-Coyle MIF logjam in Portland coming. I don't know the reasons why they moved him off, but yes... at the time it would have seemed they didn't think he'd stick at the position. However, if they move him back, I'll take that as a sign that they've re-evaluated that position and come to the conclusion he could stick at SS. Particularly when you consider we have Xader, et al so it's not like we're desperate to develop a SS. Xander took a leap forward with his defense, maybe they feel Mookie has made similar strides defensively.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 21, 2014 1:10:41 GMT -5
It's a subjective list and it would be easy to justify the order of the top 3 in any way you wish to order them based on what you are looking for.
Wong is the most advanced, he's major league ready and dubious as it was, he was selected for the World Series roster.
Odor is the most aged advanced. He's a full 2 years ahead of Mookie.
Mookie has the best upside and stats but hasn't progressed above A+.
Any order is a defensible position.
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Post by soxfanatic on Jan 21, 2014 10:14:52 GMT -5
Cecchini ranked 6th on the 3B list behind Sano, Bryant, Castellanos, Franco and Moran.
Hit: 65 | Power: 50 | Run: 50 | Arm: 50 | Field: 50 | Overall: 55
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jan 21, 2014 10:20:13 GMT -5
I was a little upset to see Cecchini so low....then I realized how stacked that list is at the top. There is a lot of talent on the left side of the infield right now.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 21, 2014 11:59:28 GMT -5
Going hand in hand with the fairly pathetic list of top first base prospects: of those top 10, the only two I'm convinced can stick at third are Franco and Dozier.
EDIT: Franco may end up at first too, because I forgot about Cody Ashe.
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Post by JackieWilsonsaid on Jan 21, 2014 12:20:02 GMT -5
Going hand in hand with the fairly pathetic list of top first base prospects: of those top 10, the only two I'm convinced can stick at third are Franco and Dozier. EDIT: Franco may end up at first too, because I forgot about Cody Ashe. I'm not sure what you mean here? Are you comparing the third base prospects with the first base ones and saying they are equally bad? And or that most will need to move off 3b? I don't see that at all. While a few may move, i see most of the top 10 at league average with the glove at min, including Cecchini.
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Post by ramireja on Jan 21, 2014 12:32:37 GMT -5
I was a little upset to see Cecchini so low....then I realized how stacked that list is at the top. There is a lot of talent on the left side of the infield right now. Yeah, I can't really complain with his placement on the list. The only guy from the top 5 that I'd put behind Cecchini is Moran, who I see projecting to be a somewhat similar player to Cecchini in which case I'll always take the guy who has the more impressive track record. Moran might have slightly greater potential for power, but its close, and if Cecchini can steal 15-20 bases in the majors then that would be value that Moran lacks. Solid list though. 3B is fairly stacked.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 21, 2014 12:37:42 GMT -5
Most of the best future first basemen are currently playing third base in the minors. Some because they can't handle it defensively, others because of positional scarcity. Neither Pujols nor Teixeira were atrocious third basemen, but both played on teams where other positions became a greater need, and they weren't so good in the field that there was any reason to force the issue.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 21, 2014 12:57:11 GMT -5
Most of the best future first basemen are currently playing third base in the minors. Some because they can't handle it defensively, others because of positional scarcity. Neither Pujols nor Teixeira were atrocious third basemen, but both played on teams where other positions became a greater need, and they weren't so good in the field that there was any reason to force the issue. Agreed. And really, Cecchini would be way higher than Shaw on the 1B list. That's why it's dumb to even have a 1B list. Or care about having a 1B of the future...
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 21, 2014 14:11:31 GMT -5
Youk was a decent third baseman before he became an excellent first baseman before he became a crappy third baseman.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jan 21, 2014 16:29:26 GMT -5
So...when does the top-10 DH list come out?
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