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2014-15 offseason discussion
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 25, 2014 22:46:47 GMT -5
Well, I'd like 1s and 2s but they are not going to get them without giving up more than maybe they should. They probably would have add a prospect to each deal, and even then it would be dicey. Also, I disagree that what the Sox have are 3s and 4s. They have mostly 4s and 5s and some who aren't even 5s yet. Kelly is the best starter on the team now. Not as good as Buchholz when he is pitching well, but since there is no way of knowing when or if that will happen, because he is more consistent, Kelly is better. There also is a good chance that he will improve. None of the prospect pitchers grabbed the gold ring this year. De La Rosa is closest. The best prospects, Owens, Johnson and Rodriguez, probably are going to spend a good share of the season at Pawtucket. Meanwhile, the big league teams needs to acquire two or three starters and one or two RPs. And at least two of those starters better be very good, preferably three. I think you can see why there is so much talk about Bogaerts going in a deal for a top SP. That might diminish if Lester signs. I've got to interject here, Dan. The rating system for pitchers, like many other such arbitrary measures, is static and, for me largely meaningless. Check out: ... it goes on and on and on. Anyone who's followed baseball for any length of time needs a broad understanding of the trajectory for pitchers. It isn't linear, and it isn't static. I'd bet a bit of money that, on the Sox staff right this very minute, are pitchers who will at some time in the future, maybe the very near future, produce very good, or even great, winning seasons. That's where the analysis and scouting come in. How good are we at looking at players and understanding what we're seeing? At measuring it? Because that potential will lead a few pitchers to that higher ground. The #1, #2,... #n rankings? That's a crapshoot, pure and simple.
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Post by bsout2 on Nov 25, 2014 22:53:56 GMT -5
I would rather the Red Sox sign Lester, Masterson and another pitcher looking for a one year contract (Johson?).
Rotation is Lester, Kelly and you can get three pitchers from Buccholz, Masterson, Johnson, DeLarosa, Webster, Wright and Ranaudo.
Then trade the extra bats for as many pitching prospects as they can get. Load up AAA and AA with starters to be used over the next 2-3 years after the 2015 season.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 25, 2014 22:58:21 GMT -5
“@brianmacp: Cherington: Signing of Ramirez to play left field "increases the likelihood that we will" make a trade involving an outfielder.” By my estimation it increases it from about 99.3% to 100%. Exactly. Talk about a statement that's devoid of information content, this was it (and you can measure it by the change in that probability). Tell us something we don't know, please.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 25, 2014 23:33:42 GMT -5
This. Guys, he's a 14 year old who claims to know someone with the Sox. So when he randomly speculates, why on earth would it mean anything at all? I said this on Twitter last night, but 4 months ago he was sending major league pitchers DMs on Twitter asking for advice on pitching, then tweeting it out when he got a response like he had won the lottery. This is insanity.
It may well be insanity. But it may also be the face of things to come. Theo ushered in the age of 20 something GMs. A decade later, Silicon Valley was crawling with Internet millionaires barely old enough to drink. The next logical step is that teenagers would rise to prominence - Especially since they're the most sought after advertising demographic. When the normally staid New Yorker embraces a teenager, some kind of sea change is happening, possibly suggesting that those of us over the age of 25 may now, in effect, be "yesterday's news."
I don't know what you think "logical" means but that's the opposite of it.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 26, 2014 0:13:31 GMT -5
Yeah.. Right-O.. And when this temprary bubble bursts, just like the dot.com one did, only this one is made up of 15-16YO kids with zippo talent? There will be even more kids waiting to put in applications at McDonalds for 8 bucks an hour.
Keep it up u twitter folks. You people are feeding an orgy of ego's of kids and fantasy, most of which was probably a guess work originally, then created a mass following. Some 15YO kid has people tied around his finger. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Nov 26, 2014 0:34:55 GMT -5
If your a big fan of Jake Wesley and Co.Jake "confirmed" the same thing from his sources: Dan Lifshatz ?@dan_Lifshatz 18m, "According to sources Red Sox asked for Tyson Ross or Andrew Cashner and either Casey Kelly or Max Fried in a deal for Yoenis Cespedes"
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 26, 2014 1:44:41 GMT -5
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Nov 26, 2014 2:24:01 GMT -5
Well, I'd like 1s and 2s but they are not going to get them without giving up more than maybe they should. They probably would have add a prospect to each deal, and even then it would be dicey. Also, I disagree that what the Sox have are 3s and 4s. They have mostly 4s and 5s and some who aren't even 5s yet. Kelly is the best starter on the team now. Not as good as Buchholz when he is pitching well, but since there is no way of knowing when or if that will happen, because he is more consistent, Kelly is better. There also is a good chance that he will improve. None of the prospect pitchers grabbed the gold ring this year. De La Rosa is closest. The best prospects, Owens, Johnson and Rodriguez, probably are going to spend a good share of the season at Pawtucket. Meanwhile, the big league teams needs to acquire two or three starters and one or two RPs. And at least two of those starters better be very good, preferably three. I think you can see why there is so much talk about Bogaerts going in a deal for a top SP. That might diminish if Lester signs. I've got to interject here, Dan. The rating system for pitchers, like many other such arbitrary measures, is static and, for me largely meaningless. Check out: ... it goes on and on and on. Anyone who's followed baseball for any length of time needs a broad understanding of the trajectory for pitchers. It isn't linear, and it isn't static. I'd bet a bit of money that, on the Sox staff right this very minute, are pitchers who will at some time in the future, maybe the very near future, produce very good, or even great, winning seasons. That's where the analysis and scouting come in. How good are we at looking at players and understanding what we're seeing? At measuring it? Because that potential will lead a few pitchers to that higher ground. The #1, #2,... #n rankings? That's a crapshoot, pure and simple. Of course you are right. I used those rankings because they are what we have. I fully expect some of the Sox prospects to become successful pitchers, and maybe two or three will be stars. However, right now the Sox cannot go with the pitchers it has because they are not ready and the Sox cannot have several in the starting rotation learning how to pitch in the majors. There are teams that can do that, but the Sox cannot. Maybe one or two at most. two if Buchholz is not one of the other starters.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,167
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Post by nomar on Nov 26, 2014 4:49:28 GMT -5
Ross + Kelly/Fried for Cespedes would be insane. Pipe dream for us.
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Post by soxfanatic on Nov 26, 2014 5:53:28 GMT -5
@buster_ESPN: Based on the conversations the Red Sox have had so far, evaluators believe they are going to get a good pitcher for Yoenis Cespedes.
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 26, 2014 7:16:26 GMT -5
@buster_ESPN: Based on the conversations the Red Sox have had so far, evaluators believe they are going to get a good pitcher for Yoenis Cespedes. My hope is for Mike Leake.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 26, 2014 7:58:10 GMT -5
Yeah.. Right-O.. And when this temprary bubble bursts, just like the dot.com one did, only this one is made up of 15-16YO kids with zippo talent? There will be even more kids waiting to put in applications at McDonalds for 8 bucks an hour. Keep it up u twitter folks. You people are feeding an orgy of ego's of kids and fantasy, most of which was probably a guess work originally, then created a mass following. Some 15YO kid has people tied around his finger. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. What's so sad about a couple teenagers breaking sports news? At least these kids are working and focused on something other than video games or whatever else kids do these days... Be skeptical about his sources but according to Lou Merloni he has legitimate ones. I don't know why you need anything ekes besides his short history of being right and Merloni confirming he's legit. Has he been annoying to a point? Sure, but he's a kid so the polish isn't there. Your crying wreaks of jealousy.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 26, 2014 8:01:31 GMT -5
@buster_ESPN: Based on the conversations the Red Sox have had so far, evaluators believe they are going to get a good pitcher for Yoenis Cespedes. My hope is for Mike Leake. Why? That'd be a major let down. Leake is a solid arm, but he better be the number 4. He's not a guy I want starting more than once in a 7 game series.
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Post by soxfan06 on Nov 26, 2014 8:27:49 GMT -5
Hey at least Phillies fans are being reasonable in their requests for what they need to get in order to trade Hamels.
The consensus is that they should get Betts, Swihart, Owens AND Rodriguez.
lol
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Post by dirtywater on Nov 26, 2014 8:35:01 GMT -5
My hope is for Mike Leake. Why? That'd be a major let down. Leake is a solid arm, but he better be the number 4. He's not a guy I want starting more than once in a 7 game series. I don't think you're going to get anything more than a #3/#4 starter on an expiring contract for Yoenis unless you're willing to give up a bit more.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 26, 2014 8:39:52 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe not, but according to some they are going to get a very good pitcher in return and Mike Leake doesn't qualify for me. If they need to add more to upgrade from Leake then you do it. Leake is only a difference maker if they acquire 2 other top starters. Cespedes shouldn't be wasted on Leake if he's a legit trade chip.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 26, 2014 8:50:41 GMT -5
This is why I wasn't a fan of starting negotiations out at 6 years/$110-$120 million. Everyone knew that wouldn't get it done. Red Sox should have went in their and made him an offer he couldn't refuse and got him off the market immediately. Yeah, there's no way that the negotiations wouldn't be in the exact same spot now or even higher if they used your strategy. Stupid Cherington.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Nov 26, 2014 8:53:09 GMT -5
Latos seems to make the most sense to me. Maybe Iwakuma. I just don't believe the Hamels stuff will work.
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Post by texs31 on Nov 26, 2014 8:53:15 GMT -5
I've always felt that if you included something that compensates the other team for the compensation they can't get if/when Cespedes leaves in free agency, that a deal for soon to be FA like Lato, Iwakuma, etc would be the right matchup. PS Hopefully that's conceptual enough to stay here as a discussion and not a trade proposal.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 26, 2014 9:11:32 GMT -5
Why? That'd be a major let down. Leake is a solid arm, but he better be the number 4. He's not a guy I want starting more than once in a 7 game series. I don't think you're going to get anything more than a #3/#4 starter on an expiring contract for Yoenis unless you're willing to give up a bit more. Well it helps that we're in the offseason where most teams still want to compete and that we already signed the only bats in free agency that can play in the field. Teams (especially NL teams) have to be looking at Cespedes, Justin Upton, Kemp, Gattis or even Allen Craig. And Kemp is iffy as a fit for an NL team.
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Post by Smittyw on Nov 26, 2014 9:15:13 GMT -5
Hey at least Phillies fans are being reasonable in their requests for what they need to get in order to trade Hamels. The consensus is that they should get Betts, Swihart, Owens AND Rodriguez. lol I saw someone say Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, and Devers the other day -- "ALL FOUR OR NO DEAL!" Then laughed heartily.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 26, 2014 9:17:27 GMT -5
Hey at least Phillies fans are being reasonable in their requests for what they need to get in order to trade Hamels. The consensus is that they should get Betts, Swihart, Owens AND Rodriguez. lol I saw someone say Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, and Devers the other day -- "ALL FOUR OR NO DEAL!" Then laughed heartily. I'll be furious if any of the four are included.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 26, 2014 9:20:14 GMT -5
I wonder if a team may get desperate enough to call about WMB, given the complete lack of talent at the position and so many teams looking for one.
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Post by Smittyw on Nov 26, 2014 9:23:41 GMT -5
I saw someone say Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, and Devers the other day -- "ALL FOUR OR NO DEAL!" Then laughed heartily. I'll be furious if any of the four are included. Exactly.
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atzar
Veteran
Posts: 1,818
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Post by atzar on Nov 26, 2014 9:43:26 GMT -5
I saw someone say Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, and Devers the other day -- "ALL FOUR OR NO DEAL!" Then laughed heartily. I'll be furious if any of the four are included. This... I'd reluctantly give up Owens, but the four you mentioned are hopefully nigh-untouchable (barring another GM doing something dumb). The Bogaerts-to-Philly noise has me a bit concerned.
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