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6/12-6/15 Red Sox vs. Indians Series Thread
ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 15, 2014 17:58:57 GMT -5
Two one-run losses in a row is brutal. Every loss hammers in that nail in the coffin a little more. They are 8-15 in one run games, but the more remarkable thing is that the 15 losses include five back-to-back pairs. In other words, when they've lost a single game by a run, odds have been 50% they do it again the next game. I guess the good news is that they've yet to lose three such games in a row.
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Post by godot on Jun 15, 2014 18:09:06 GMT -5
The excitement and high energy factor is gone from this team. It went with Ellsbury and also with Shane not playing because of injuries ( Dustin's hand injury does not help either). These are very subjective impressions, but for what it is worth, I don't get any sense of excitement from this team. When they are behind, it feels like they will not come back. It is not that they are not trying or hustling, but that spark , energy, and swagger does not seem to be there on a consistent basis. Again, could be projecting here, but does anyone else feel this about the team?
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cdj
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Posts: 15,659
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Post by cdj on Jun 15, 2014 18:18:14 GMT -5
Brian MacPherson ?@brianmacp 1m A.J, Pierzynski didn't like a question about his bat toss: "You guys like to look into everything I do. Pay attention to somebody else." I find nothing wrong with what he said. Media needs to get lost, he took responsibility for the loss last night and now they just want to nitpick. I have no problems with AJ, aside from his propensity to swing at literally every pitch.
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Post by marrcus on Jun 15, 2014 18:39:22 GMT -5
If you want to "nitpick"...you can't strikeout with the bat on your shoulder in extra innings. Protect the plate and get your bat on the ball with anything close.
Since I don't expect any trades of note until the deadline, I'm not expecting any significant change. What we've been seeing is what we're going to get. If Victorino can stay healthy (?) maybe they can get to .500 and stay there. Until Buchholz proves it I'm not assuming he's going to come back with good stuff. There's too many "if's" in this season.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Jun 15, 2014 19:06:18 GMT -5
The excitement and high energy factor is gone from this team. It went with Ellsbury and also with Shane not playing because of injuries ( Dustin's hand injury does not help either). These are very subjective impressions, but for what it is worth, I don't get any sense of excitement from this team. When they are behind, it feels like they will not come back. It is not that they are not trying or hustling, but that spark , energy, and swagger does not seem to be there on a consistent basis. Again, could be projecting here, but does anyone else feel this about the team? Yes, but the team still has Gomes to provide that extra undefinable "something."Seriously, I get the same early feeling, and it's strange in a way because the Sox are integrating some major new talent onto the team this year, and more youngsters will probably get a chance if the Sox work their way further out of contention. On the surface, you'd expect an injection of young players to provide some fresh air and new vitality. But as weeks go by, it may be that the organization realizes that last year's magic just isn't there this year, and after you've won a championship (or two or three), it's tough to maintain your same level of competitive edge when the same opportunity isn't there in front of you.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 15, 2014 19:22:02 GMT -5
Clutch loss today.
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Post by jmei on Jun 15, 2014 20:27:20 GMT -5
The excitement and high energy factor is gone from this team. It went with Ellsbury and also with Shane not playing because of injuries ( Dustin's hand injury does not help either). These are very subjective impressions, but for what it is worth, I don't get any sense of excitement from this team. When they are behind, it feels like they will not come back. It is not that they are not trying or hustling, but that spark , energy, and swagger does not seem to be there on a consistent basis. Again, could be projecting here, but does anyone else feel this about the team? I tend to think this is just the results driving the perception. When a team comes back from behind, they get to be excited and celebratory and such and we the viewers get a good impression of their energy and enthusiasm. When they don't, they naturally seem lethargic and dour to us. For instance, Holt was busting his *** down the line today trying to beat out the throw in the bottom of the ninth, but because he got beat by a half-step, our lasting image of him is lying facedown in the infield dirt rather than him jumping up and down and celebrating a walk-off hit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 20:42:36 GMT -5
The excitement and high energy factor is gone from this team. It went with Ellsbury and also with Shane not playing because of injuries ( Dustin's hand injury does not help either). These are very subjective impressions, but for what it is worth, I don't get any sense of excitement from this team. When they are behind, it feels like they will not come back. It is not that they are not trying or hustling, but that spark , energy, and swagger does not seem to be there on a consistent basis. Again, could be projecting here, but does anyone else feel this about the team? Yes, but the team still has Gomes to provide that extra undefinable "something."Seriously, I get the same early feeling, and it's strange in a way because the Sox are integrating some major new talent onto the team this year, and more youngsters will probably get a chance if the Sox work their way further out of contention. On the surface, you'd expect an injection of young players to provide some fresh air and new vitality. But as weeks go by, it may be that the organization realizes that last year's magic just isn't there this year, and after you've won a championship (or two or three), it's tough to maintain your same level of competitive edge when the same opportunity isn't there in front of you. There was a giant missed opportunity here for Brentz to grab some playing time. He looked so damn good in Spring Training but has since fallen flat. That's really too bad.
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Post by godot on Jun 15, 2014 20:47:52 GMT -5
I know what you are saying, and I wonder if I am reading into it. But it is not the lack of celebration or the lack of hustle. Last year Ellsbury, Shane, and even Dustin would get on base and often steal. Hell, a walk was like a double sometimes. They upset pitchers and defenses and set things in motion offensively. Always had the feeling that they would come back in late innings. The lineup did not have so many black holes either. Now all that is gone. It is a boring station to station team that has problems just mounting an offensive attack. This is hard to explain, and it is based on my experiences with groups and various organizing campaigns. As you know, I ( and others) believe that losing Ellsbury was a big loss beyond the stats. Shane has (had) somewhat the same effect. The energy, confidence, and swagger were the result of players with special talents.
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Post by jmei on Jun 15, 2014 21:37:24 GMT -5
That seems more like a quantifiable skill issue than one of intangible energy or confidence or swagger. They have worse hitters and worse baserunners, so they score fewer runs.
Again, I think you have the correlation backwards. It's a lot easier to be confident and energetic when you're winning games. How many below-.500 teams have swagger?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 15, 2014 21:39:27 GMT -5
I know what you are saying, and I wonder if I am reading into it. But it is not the lack of celebration or the lack of hustle. Last year Ellsbury, Shane, and even Dustin would get on base and often steal. Hell, a walk was like a double sometimes. They upset pitchers and defenses and set things in motion offensively. Always had the feeling that they would come back in late innings. The lineup did not have so many black holes either. Now all that is gone. It is a boring station to station team that has problems just mounting an offensive attack. This is hard to explain, and it is based on my experiences with groups and various organizing campaigns. As you know, I ( and others) believe that losing Ellsbury was a big loss beyond the stats. Shane has (had) somewhat the same effect. The energy, confidence, and swagger were the result of players with special talents. It's not your imagination. This team simply doesn't have it and I've had that feeling since Day 1. Not before the season of course, but they just feel different. And yes, jmei, results drive perception, but who can argue with last year's results? Last year that team was capable of coming back from just about any deficit and they were a very stable team that found a way to win. You could feel it last year. You didn't tune out of any games. When the score was tied in the 9th, if the count got to 2-0 on the leadoff batter, you could smell victory. It doesn't feel this way this year and honestly I've found it pretty easy to tune out their games (real life does get in the way, but it hasn't bothered me to miss large chunks of their games this year). This year's team is largely the same team minus Ellsbury and swapping Salty for AJP, but they feel very different. When they're involved in a close game, even at home, you feel like they're going to find a way to lose. They'll hit into the killer DP, get thrown out at a base, make an untimely error. etc - and they simply just don't score runs. They're a terribly boring team to watch - the exact opposite of last year's exciting team. Last year just about everything went right. This year everything is going wrong, and kind of worrisome to me, Ortiz and Pedroia look like players who are declining. Despite that I feel they should keep the core players like Lester, Lackey, and Koji for next year because I think this team, with better luck and an infusion of good young talent could bounce back big time in 2015 and they'll need those players. The others that are free agents are more fungible and easily replaced. It's not there this year. There's been zero sign that it has been there this year. Pure and simple. It's NOT the Red Sox year in 2014. It happens. Pick wisely in the draft and hope next year the Sox get some better luck and maturation/breakthroughs by young players and somewhere down the line they'll have to acquire a big middle of the order bat as Ortiz needs help. They need to move Pedroia out of the #3 spot of the lineup where he doesn't belong and find a legit #3, which I suspect they already have in their roster in Bogaerts. They'll need this bat to supplement Ortiz and Napoli as the lineup below them are below average this year in contrast to just about every spot in the lineup being at or above average in 2013.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,016
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 15, 2014 21:55:59 GMT -5
That seems more like a quantifiable skill issue than one of intangible energy or confidence or swagger. They have worse hitters and worse baserunners, so they score fewer runs. Again, I think you have the correlation backwards. It's a lot easier to be confident and energetic when you're winning games. How many below-.500 teams have swagger? I'm largely, if not almost entirely with you, on this chicken versus egg debate. Specifically, the notion that the team lacks "energy" or "spark" or "enthusiasm" has no causative explanatory power at all. It's a result. The one place where I do think psychology enters into it is confidence. They've performed less well than expected all season long in high-leverage situations, such as with RISP. But that itself is initially a result, not a cause. You lose confidence because you don't perform well with the game on the line, not vice versa. It does become a negative feedback loop after a while, though. The good news is that, in my experience tracking clutch differential, these things can turn around. But actually hitting better will be both a necessary prerequisite for that, and much more important.
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Post by godot on Jun 15, 2014 22:20:18 GMT -5
If you read my clarification, I also said that it was a result of players with special talents ( successfully executing those talents). Of course, "energy" or however you describe it is not a "thing" or a cause ( never said it was a cause of their problems). You guys incorrectly interpreted it that way, but should have been more precise. Didn't realize the professors were going to grade and mark as is their wont. It was something I felt or observed from watching these guys, and others seem to have the same feeling. I'm into aesthetics. I also may have more respect for a running game and speed than many. It can make a big difference and does help create an energy and dynamism. (Eric, you are Sheldon Cooper, and I say that in a nice way. Jmei is Dr. Proton))
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 16, 2014 6:43:09 GMT -5
Looking on the bright side, Workman's average fastball velocity was up yesterday, at 91.7 mph (season average 90.6), which is a level where I feel more comfortable with him as a starter.
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Post by larrycook on Jun 16, 2014 7:41:16 GMT -5
Forgetting about the lack of runs, did this team have a hit after the fifth inning?
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 16, 2014 7:56:46 GMT -5
Yes, but the team still has Gomes to provide that extra undefinable "something."Seriously, I get the same early feeling, and it's strange in a way because the Sox are integrating some major new talent onto the team this year, and more youngsters will probably get a chance if the Sox work their way further out of contention. On the surface, you'd expect an injection of young players to provide some fresh air and new vitality. But as weeks go by, it may be that the organization realizes that last year's magic just isn't there this year, and after you've won a championship (or two or three), it's tough to maintain your same level of competitive edge when the same opportunity isn't there in front of you. There was a giant missed opportunity here for Brentz to grab some playing time. He looked so damn good in Spring Training but has since fallen flat. That's really too bad. Well, to be fair, Brentz started off ice-cold and then went on a hot streak. He dropped back a bit and was then coming on again just as he got injured. He has not played in a month. I do think that had Brentz remained healthy, the production would have been there and he might have had a call-up with our run scoring deficiencies and injuries.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 16, 2014 8:37:03 GMT -5
That seems more like a quantifiable skill issue than one of intangible energy or confidence or swagger. They have worse hitters and worse baserunners, so they score fewer runs. Again, I think you have the correlation backwards. It's a lot easier to be confident and energetic when you're winning games. How many below-.500 teams have swagger? I'm largely, if not almost entirely with you, on this chicken versus egg debate. Specifically, the notion that the team lacks "energy" or "spark" or "enthusiasm" has no causative explanatory power at all. It's a result. The one place where I do think psychology enters into it is confidence. They've performed less well than expected all season long in high-leverage situations, such as with RISP. But that itself is initially a result, not a cause. You lose confidence because you don't perform well with the game on the line, not vice versa. It does become a negative feedback loop after a while, though. The good news is that, in my experience tracking clutch differential, these things can turn around. But actually hitting better will be both a necessary prerequisite for that, and much more important. Completely agree, and I will also say that I believed the curse was real because of the negative feedback loop with an entire fanbase expected them to blow it every year.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 16, 2014 8:37:34 GMT -5
There was a giant missed opportunity here for Brentz to grab some playing time. He looked so damn good in Spring Training but has since fallen flat. That's really too bad. Well, to be fair, Brentz started off ice-cold and then went on a hot streak. He dropped back a bit and was then coming on again just as he got injured. He has not played in a month. I do think that had Brentz remained healthy, the production would have been there and he might have had a call-up with our run scoring deficiencies and injuries. Certainly over Hassan...
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