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6/30-7/2 Red Sox vs Cubs Series Thread
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 3, 2014 9:56:09 GMT -5
Both kids were pitching above their heads. They are bound for a rough start or two. Workman should know he's already won his job and if he folds that easily under pressure instead of being motivated then I don't trust him to be the starting pitcher in a playoff elimination game. I just wish they could hurry up and trade off some of the unneeded veterans. They even have the depth to survive injury/vast under-performances. They could trade Lackey, Peavy, Doubrount, and Buchholz and still have rotation depth. Which, in a lost season is perfect in every which way if they can trim the fat. But Workman didn't know he won his job. I never even heard when it was decided that he'd get the start last night instead of Doubront. This is a much different kind of pressure than a playoff game. At least in the playoff game, you know where you stand and aren't pressing. That's actually a fair point and now John Farrell is probably making life harder for Workman by putting his status as this teams starter up in the air after that poor performance. I'm actually starting to not like him as a manager. I was sold the bill of goods about how he'd make an awesome manager/pitching coach/gm when he was the pitching coach here, but his decisions are often questionable at best. Granted, he won the WS in his first year after the Bobby V debacle so I have to give him his dues and respects for a couple of seasons, but his insistence on playing crap veterans and putting guys in the worst possible position to succeeded is mind-boggling. For example, I like Gomes. I think he's a great addition to this team. Everyone wants him out of town now because Farrell loves starting him and having him face righties at every opportunity he gets. I don't know why it's so hard to just play him against lefties. It's not like he's bringing a gold glove out to LF. He held onto the Sizemore experiment for far too long and took ABs away from Jackie Bradley Jr(though I guess that's more managements fault for not DFAing him sooner). He won't play Xander at SS when Drew is out despite the fact that management is trying to tell me he's the SS of the future (which is looking more and more like Marrero is). Some of his BP moves are baffling, he tries to play aggressive with players who aren't equipped with the right tools to steal/bunt. He seems more like a "feel" manager rather than a "stats guy" and it's irritating. I know sometimes you have to go with your gut, but so far his gut has sucked epically this year. Maybe he should try a new strategy, if you feel like it's the right move, don't do it.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Jul 3, 2014 11:01:48 GMT -5
I don't know if the following technically are AAAA players, but their chances of playing for the Sox are very slim and they are taking up spots that maybe could be filled by more promising players at some point: McCoy, Torres, Rivero, Brown, Roberts and Henry DanR: here are some of the basics of a rebuttal to the consensus here regarding AAAA vs. "Prospects". 1. They have only 2 position players on option for the 7 non-catcher positions. They need AAAA depth for injury replacement. AAAA can be brought up temporarily and waived after their brief stay. You cannot do that with Shaw, Marrero, etc. And McCoy/Brown are more suitable for the Red Sox bench than 2nd-tier minor leaguers, such as Wilkerson/Meneses/Gibson. 2. If the Sox have visions of getting in the wildcard race, AAAA players could add something to this anemic lineup. 3. WMB is moving toward arb eligible, likely before he is an established major league starter. That is not successful development. Teams such as KC have "developed" players only to have them reach 6 years service time as they enter their prime playing years. Players who then leave and sign the big contract with a big market team. 4. The alternative approach is to arrange that much of those prime years fall within the 6-year period. Sox did that with Lester. And perhaps with Doubront. Bradley looks like he is following the WMB plan. And he will be Arb Eligible and moving toward free agency just as he cracks the .700 OPS mark. 5. If Bradley needs to be in Boston to get "development", it's time to give some of that playing time to Hassan for his "development". 6. In conclusion, after Drew is traded, I'd rather see Ryan Roberts in Boston, rather than Marrero. 7. Cherington takes the "expeditor" approach, rather than the approach that I advocate. Theo seemed to be less of an expeditor. 8. Yet, the Sox are clearly still trying to fix this team to compete in 2014.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Jul 3, 2014 12:40:56 GMT -5
The Red Sox could not justify trading away Peavy, Gomes, Herrera, Breslow, Pierzynski, Drew, etc and bring up guys like Roberts, Hassan, Butler, etc who have limited talent and will not be part of a solution to field a competitive team for 2014 and beyond. Hopefully Brentz and Middkebrooks get healthy soon and they are able to get ABs between now and the end of the 2014 season along with Webster and Ranaudo. Given the debacle with the Lester negotiations it will also be prudent to trade him for the best available offer. I would think that they could get a nice package from a team like the Cardinals which has a number of close to MLB ready position players and pitchers and which has an obvious heed for starting pitching .
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Jul 3, 2014 13:28:11 GMT -5
I don't know if the following technically are AAAA players, but their chances of playing for the Sox are very slim and they are taking up spots that maybe could be filled by more promising players at some point: McCoy, Torres, Rivero, Brown, Roberts and Henry DanR: here are some of the basics of a rebuttal to the consensus here regarding AAAA vs. "Prospects". For space purposes I deleted most of your post. I understand your points and they make sense at the beginning of the season. Now the season is half over and, for all practical purposes, the Sox's chances of reaching the post-season are over. Cherington's focus now should not be trying to get the team back into contention because that is an impossible task. There are too many things that have gone wrong, and nowhere near enough options to fix them. Cherington's focus should be on assembling a team that will compete next year. To do that the good high-level prospects need to be challenged and appraised. I am not saying that all those players I listed should be cut, but some room at Pawtucket should be made for Coyle and Swihart at least, maybe Gibson and Wilkerson at some point. And maybe a couple of the others later on. And moving several of the Portland players up enables several of the Salem players to move up, etc. It is time to move on and prepare for the future.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 3, 2014 13:44:34 GMT -5
... Workman hasn't been the same since the questions began of whether he'd ever get another start and not knowing when it would be.... Workman won't be the same till he stops throwing straight fastballs up to major league hitters. He doesn't have enough movement on his hard stuff to do that, so he has to work in the bottom third of the zone. Check out his throws to first base. Napoli was stabbing at them over his head. He lacked the consistency to get his stuff down and keep it there. He can't do that if he's going to be a decent starter.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 3, 2014 14:08:23 GMT -5
... Workman hasn't been the same since the questions began of whether he'd ever get another start and not knowing when it would be.... Workman won't be the same till he stops throwing straight fastballs up to major league hitters. He doesn't have enough movement on his hard stuff to do that, so he has to work in the bottom third of the zone. Check out his throws to first base. Napoli was stabbing at them over his head. He lacked the consistency to get his stuff down and keep it there. He can't do that if he's going to be a decent starter. He wasn't locating anything the last two games, which is unusual for him. The 10 days off didn't do him any good.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Jul 3, 2014 14:45:56 GMT -5
I think Workman's fastball was slightly slower than normal, maybe one or two MPH. That, combined with being unable to locate it properly, made it more hittable, particularly hittable when thrown over the middle of the plate. I recall from last year that he kept that fastball down more than he doing now. A pitcher can get away with a straight fastball if it is located properly, and is combined with other good pitches.
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Post by mgoetze on Jul 4, 2014 4:17:30 GMT -5
I think Workman's fastball was slightly slower than normal, maybe one or two MPH. Yesterday's average: 90.8 MPH Previous starts: 91.0, 90.4, 90.1, 91.0, 91.7, 91.5 MPH I've said all along that Workman is living on the edge with his fastball velocity, so I would be OK with trading him before the inevitable decline.
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Post by terriblehondo on Jul 4, 2014 9:19:49 GMT -5
I think Workman's fastball was slightly slower than normal, maybe one or two MPH. Yesterday's average: 90.8 MPH Previous starts: 91.0, 90.4, 90.1, 91.0, 91.7, 91.5 MPH I've said all along that Workman is living on the edge with his fastball velocity, so I would be OK with trading him before the inevitable decline. It was location and not velocity that got him lit up.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 4, 2014 9:38:26 GMT -5
Too many excuses for Workman. He was pitching above his head early on. I think he's a reliever.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 4, 2014 10:47:02 GMT -5
Too many excuses for Workman. He was pitching above his head early on. I think he's a reliever. Word. Stuff wise he's just not a starting pitcher. I'd take RDLR, Webster, Ranaudo and even Barnes over him every day.
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zack
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by zack on Jul 4, 2014 10:48:51 GMT -5
I think I'd rather have Dempster than Peavy. How disappointing he has been. I think I'd probably put him as our 9th best starter at this point. RDLR has been incredible. Workman definitely looks solid enough. Webster and Ranaudo are knocking pretty loudly on the door, right now. I think as far as pitching goes they need to send Ranuado up so they get Henry Owens up to triple A he's 11-3 with a 2.30 era and Ranuado is 9-4 with a 2.35 era
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Post by terriblehondo on Jul 4, 2014 12:55:01 GMT -5
Too many excuses for Workman. He was pitching above his head early on. I think he's a reliever. Word. Stuff wise he's just not a starting pitcher. I'd take RDLR, Webster, Ranaudo and even Barnes over him every day. Stuff does not mean anything if you cannot locate. All stuff does is allow you to get away with more mistakes. RDLR has better stuff but got hit hard in Detroit and Baltimore when he was not locating. Workman might not have the stuff to be a top of the rotation guy. But he has enough to start in the Majors as long as he locates. Which he has done in most of his starts last year and this.
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