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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 23, 2015 19:29:16 GMT -5
If the Red Sox are choosing between Moncada and a 19 year old pitcher out there to sign for nothing but money that's a similar caliber to Moncada, I'd agree. But there isn't, and there likely never will be ever again. there never will be, but proven good starters are worth more than unproven, hyped kids. I'd love to see him turn out to be puig, but I just worry about the fact he can never tread water in triple a, or advance in several years. Which is when we'd likely stick him at third (given the semiperfect storm in which Napoli is gone, panda wants to dh, and Hanley wants to play first. None of these are givens. I just see so much happiness on the board about signing him and I can see the excitement. Id be ecstatic with Hanley at 1st, Moncada at 3rd, Pablo at dh/3b/fb, and betts rusney and whoever else out there in a few years. It just seems like it's askin a lot and granted that's only one scenario, if he pans out. Judt worries me so many people are hemming and hawing that anyone would dare have doubts bc we just signed the next possible superstar. This is the only forum I can vent my concern with mostly informative and constructive feedback. Edit:I wasn't suggesting a 19 yo old pitcher his age and talent level st that contract not sure where you got that from. I spoke of a proven ml starter, which it seems are much Harder to find than "young Cuban future superstars" jury is still out on the castillos,tomas', Moncada of this world and it takes me bsck to how highly viciedo was hyped. First, Moncada has been evaluated for quite a while and comes from a country that has produced many very good, if not elite, baseball players over the past five years. Moncada is considered just as good as those players, with the chance of being even better in the long run given his skill set. Second, paying an "elite" pitcher is much more risky. If you want an "ace" then you are going to give them a long-term/high AV contract. You take the talent where you can get it. Signing Moncada really wasn't that risky of a move given his pedigree, and it shouldn't change how the organization will operate in the future. |
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 23, 2015 19:47:49 GMT -5
Pete Abraham ?@peteabe 9s9 seconds ago
Moncada will be in Ft. Myers tomorrow to start his physical. He'll also go to Boston as part of that. Hope is to complete by Friday
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 23, 2015 19:48:11 GMT -5
RT @followthepadres: Source: #Padres offer to Yoan Moncada was in the area of $25 million.
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 23, 2015 19:50:25 GMT -5
Pete Abraham ?@peteabe 4m4 minutes ago
Agent David Hastings said #RedSox also have signed Carlos Mesa, a 26-year-old 3B who is a friend of Moncada.
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Post by WindyCityRedSox169 on Feb 23, 2015 20:34:13 GMT -5
there never will be, but proven good starters are worth more than unproven, hyped kids. I'd love to see him turn out to be puig, but I just worry about the fact he can never tread water in triple a, or advance in several years. Which is when we'd likely stick him at third (given the semiperfect storm in which Napoli is gone, panda wants to dh, and Hanley wants to play first. None of these are givens. I just see so much happiness on the board about signing him and I can see the excitement. Id be ecstatic with Hanley at 1st, Moncada at 3rd, Pablo at dh/3b/fb, and betts rusney and whoever else out there in a few years. It just seems like it's askin a lot and granted that's only one scenario, if he pans out. Judt worries me so many people are hemming and hawing that anyone would dare have doubts bc we just signed the next possible superstar. This is the only forum I can vent my concern with mostly informative and constructive feedback. Edit:I wasn't suggesting a 19 yo old pitcher his age and talent level st that contract not sure where you got that from. I spoke of a proven ml starter, which it seems are much Harder to find than "young Cuban future superstars" jury is still out on the castillos,tomas', Moncada of this world and it takes me bsck to how highly viciedo was hyped. So your point is I want the Red Sox to go after proven good starters as they are worth more than unproven, hyped kids. However isn't there a problem with that stance? Most proven MLB starters (And I am guessing you are talking the top tier of aces) are going to get nearly three to three and half times what the Red Sox paid for Moncada. So this wasn't a well if we paid $60MM for Moncada we could have used that to sign a super star pitcher. The only one that went for that amount was James Shields. Do you want to spend frivolously on large 'proven' contracts? Given the injury history, particularly with pitching, you are one blown elbow away from a terrible contract and you go from wanting proven starters to where is the youth movement? The Red Sox have put together an offseason where they hope to blend both veteran signings with young talent. That way they aren't crippled if the veterans are injured repeatedly (See the situation in New York) or get burned by underperforming young talent. At the end of the day no one is disputing that Moncada is unproven. However the Red Sox have put together a collection of assets that have a better than not chance of at least a few of those guys working out quite well. Between Swihart, Betts, Moncada, Castillo, Bogaerts, Vazquez, Owens, Rodriguez and Barnes they have a handful of talent that is on the MLB level or very nearly there. Will all of those guys turn into superstar type talents? Very likely no if they did that then the Red Sox have a dynasty on their hands similar to what the Yankees did in the 90s. However proven pitching is difficult to obtain regardless of where you are at. Either you give up very talented assets in young prospects or you pay a boat load of money. If you don't have a great farm system option one is off the table and option two presents its own challenges given those contracts you are likely paying for the decline of a pitcher. I think you are being way too critical here. |
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Post by stevedillard on Feb 23, 2015 20:49:41 GMT -5
Pete Abraham ?@peteabe 4m4 minutes ago Agent David Hastings said #RedSox also have signed Carlos Mesa, a 26-year-old 3B who is a friend of Moncada. For $31 million, not subject to tax because he's over age 23;) |
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Post by jmei on Feb 23, 2015 20:55:29 GMT -5
It's not a zero-sum game between the two, but even if it was, the elite position player prospect might be lower-risk than your typical veteran starting pitcher. The bust rate of a top 10ish position player prospect is comparable to, if not superior than the bust rate of most "proven" starting pitchers: www.fangraphs.com/blogs/big-leaguers-prospects-and-uncertainty/ |
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Post by brianthetaoist on Feb 23, 2015 20:56:08 GMT -5
Remember when the Sox idea of a splashy international play was signing New Zealand softball players? Good times ... whatever happened to that guy?
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 23, 2015 21:03:00 GMT -5
Fun fact: Moncada will be 24 years old when Sandoval's contract ends. Devers will be 23. Betts, Swihart and Bogaerts will be 27. Jacoby Ellsbury will be 36 and costing the Yankees north of 20M. Everything is awesome.
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,862
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Post by wcp3 on Feb 23, 2015 21:17:17 GMT -5
Very excited for Moncada, and the risk is worth taking. People say that he is a 5 tool guy, realistically projects for 3-4 good tools at the MLB level. Not sure he passes Swihart as our top prospect quite yet, but with a great showing in Salem he could definitely jump up to the highest echelon of guys (Bryant, Buxton, Lindor, etc.) He should definitely be rated ahead of Swihart. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 23, 2015 21:18:26 GMT -5
Pete Abraham ?@peteabe 2h2 hours ago
Moncada will be in Ft. Myers tomorrow to start his physical. He'll also go to Boston as part of that. Hope is to complete by Friday.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,618
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Post by nomar on Feb 23, 2015 21:38:28 GMT -5
Very excited for Moncada, and the risk is worth taking. People say that he is a 5 tool guy, realistically projects for 3-4 good tools at the MLB level. Not sure he passes Swihart as our top prospect quite yet, but with a great showing in Salem he could definitely jump up to the highest echelon of guys (Bryant, Buxton, Lindor, etc.) He should definitely be rated ahead of Swihart. We don't even know what position he will play for sure, so we can't truly grade his defense yet. We don't know how he will hit and how much power he will bring. His tools are great, but we have nothing to go off of. Placing him behind Swihart is definitely justifiable depending on how you weight things. But yes, hopefully he rakes right away wherever he is sent. |
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Feb 23, 2015 22:08:00 GMT -5
The Red Sox just gave the guy more than $30 million before playing a single minor league game.
Let me repeat that: the Red Sox just gave the guy more than $30 MILLION!
He might not end up being as good as Swihart, but he's a better prospect.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,618
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Post by nomar on Feb 23, 2015 22:23:35 GMT -5
The Red Sox just gave the guy more than $30 million before playing a single minor league game. Let me repeat that: the Red Sox just gave the guy more than $30 MILLION! He might not end up being as good as Swihart, but he's a better prospect. If Swihart was posted as a free agent right now he would've gotten probably around the same. He's arguably less risky too. Was Soler a better prospect than Jose Fernandez because he was paid $25M and Fernandez wasn't? Money doesn't earn you a prospect ranking. You can make a case for either. |
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Post by charliezink16 on Feb 23, 2015 22:25:29 GMT -5
The Red Sox just gave the guy more than $30 million before playing a single minor league game. Let me repeat that: the Red Sox just gave the guy more than $30 MILLION! He might not end up being as good as Swihart, but he's a better prospect. If Blake Swihart was declared a free agent right now, would he get more or less than $61mil? I'd argue more. A catcher with his defensive profile alone would probably exceed $61mil (plus league min. & arbitration) in value over the next 6 years. ADD: Damn you Nomar |
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Post by youngbillrussell on Feb 23, 2015 22:47:19 GMT -5
I love the Carlos Mesa signing, a young guy like Moncada needs someone to keep him in line. Especially someone who somewhat flamed out pursing a MLB career. I think his purpose in all this is to make sure Yoan Moncada lives up to his potential.
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Post by bluechip on Feb 23, 2015 22:47:24 GMT -5
The Red Sox just gave the guy more than $30 million before playing a single minor league game. Let me repeat that: the Red Sox just gave the guy more than $30 MILLION! He might not end up being as good as Swihart, but he's a better prospect. If Blake Swihart was declared a free agent right now, would he get more or less than $61mil? I'd argue more. A catcher with his defensive profile alone would probably exceed $61mil (plus league min. & arbitration) in value over the next 6 years. ADD: Damn you Nomar Swihart is less risky having been scouted in game action more and facing known pitchers. There are hundreds of hours worth of games that scouts watched of Swihart over the last couple of years. if Swihart would get more, it is because he is less risky. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 23, 2015 22:52:23 GMT -5
One other not insignificant factor here is that it's unlikely that Moncada will need to be put on the 40 man roster until he's actually in Boston. In a way, it's like our 40 man just became 41.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 22:52:57 GMT -5
Go on nyyfans, there thread is up to 125 about Yoan Moncada. If you took calculate measurements of snow fall in boston this year or Yankee tears for not signing this kid it would be very close.
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Post by m1keyboots on Feb 24, 2015 0:11:05 GMT -5
I happen to believe his contract notwithstanding, he's ready for the bug leagues in a year or so. then what. Have him in the minors another year for however many million. I just feel like they're going after the wrong type of players. IE a pitcher. And people can make claims tht it's trade ammunition what does that say about ppl that want to sign here? If Moncada is ready to play in the bug leagues, the only possible place for him is as at third. I'm glad people are seeing the sunny side up part of this, I just don't see a lot of common sense behind it If the Red Sox are choosing between Moncada and a 19 year old pitcher out there to sign for nothing but money that's a similar caliber to Moncada, I'd agree. But there isn't, and there likely never will be ever again. there never will be, but proven good starters are worth more than unproven, hyped kids. I'd love to see him turn out to be puig, but I just worry about the fact he can never tread water in triple a, or advance in several years. Which is when we'd likely stick him at third (given the semiperfect storm in which Napoli is gone, panda wants to dh, and Hanley wants to play first. None of these are givens. I just see so much happiness on the board about signing him and I can see the excitement. Id be ecstatic with Hanley at 1st, Moncada at 3rd, Pablo at dh/3b/fb, and betts rusney and whoever else out there in a few years. It just seems like it's askin a lot and granted that's only one scenario, if he pans out. Judt worries me so many people are hemming and hawing that anyone would dare have doubts bc we just signed the next possible superstar. This is the only forum I can vent my concern with mostly informative and constructive feedback. |
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Post by m1keyboots on Feb 24, 2015 0:13:09 GMT -5
there never will be, but proven good starters are worth more than unproven, hyped kids. I'd love to see him turn out to be puig, but I just worry about the fact he can never tread water in triple a, or advance in several years. Which is when we'd likely stick him at third (given the semiperfect storm in which Napoli is gone, panda wants to dh, and Hanley wants to play first. None of these are givens. I just see so much happiness on the board about signing him and I can see the excitement. Id be ecstatic with Hanley at 1st, Moncada at 3rd, Pablo at dh/3b/fb, and betts rusney and whoever else out there in a few years. It just seems like it's askin a lot and granted that's only one scenario, if he pans out. Judt worries me so many people are hemming and hawing that anyone would dare have doubts bc we just signed the next possible superstar. This is the only forum I can vent my concern with mostly informative and constructive feedback. Edit:I wasn't suggesting a 19 yo old pitcher his age and talent level st that contract not sure where you got that from. I spoke of a proven ml starter, which it seems are much Harder to find than "young Cuban future superstars" jury is still out on the castillos,tomas', Moncada of this world and it takes me bsck to how highly viciedo was hyped. So your point is I want the Red Sox to go after proven good starters as they are worth more than unproven, hyped kids. However isn't there a problem with that stance? Most proven MLB starters (And I am guessing you are talking the top tier of aces) are going to get nearly three to three and half times what the Red Sox paid for Moncada. So this wasn't a well if we paid $60MM for Moncada we could have used that to sign a super star pitcher. The only one that went for that amount was James Shields. Do you want to spend frivolously on large 'proven' contracts? Given the injury history, particularly with pitching, you are one blown elbow away from a terrible contract and you go from wanting proven starters to where is the youth movement? The Red Sox have put together an offseason where they hope to blend both veteran signings with young talent. That way they aren't crippled if the veterans are injured repeatedly (See the situation in New York) or get burned by underperforming young talent. At the end of the day no one is disputing that Moncada is unproven. However the Red Sox have put together a collection of assets that have a better than not chance of at least a few of those guys working out quite well. Between Swihart, Betts, Moncada, Castillo, Bogaerts, Vazquez, Owens, Rodriguez and Barnes they have a handful of talent that is on the MLB level or very nearly there. Will all of those guys turn into superstar type talents? Very likely no if they did that then the Red Sox have a dynasty on their hands similar to what the Yankees did in the 90s. However proven pitching is difficult to obtain regardless of where you are at. Either you give up very talented assets in young prospects or you pay a boat load of money. If you don't have a great farm system option one is off the table and option two presents its own challenges given those contracts you are likely paying for the decline of a pitcher. I think you are being way too critical here. you misunderstood my criticism by directly relsting it to this years pitching crop and all i was saying is a 30 million mistake is a little different than Manuel margot, or Rafael devers slumming it in the ml down the road. I stated before I just think it's a high risk, high reward gamble, that Maybe it isn't something that should be universally praised, as it seems to be... I guess im not part of the group that's happy that Moncada will be 24 when Pablo is done, that's a lot of Money to hit for providence or part time for the Bosox (assuming Pablo does well which I happen to think he will) |
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Post by brnichols19873 on Feb 24, 2015 0:14:42 GMT -5
As far as the Smiley comments are concerned...In my opinion this is a very short-sighted argument for a member of the players union to make; the simple fact is that the contracts given to these Cuban stars actually frees up more cash for American major league talent. Take Puig for example, he is making “only” 7 mill a year (6 years 42 million) thus allowing LA to go out and spend more capital on free agents who came into the league via the draft. The same applies for the White Sox who have the discounted contract of Abreu…at the end of the day the only prospects who have a “true gripe” with this system are the truly elite ones ie the harpers/trouts as a “reasonable” equilibrium would naturally develop when it came to the vast majority of prospects and their salaries would be comparable to those handed out in the draft. However, even for these “elite” US talents they make out in the end as there is more free cash to a lot to their contracts when they hit free agency as recent history has shown that these very elit and thus highly paid Cuban players have become underpaid assets on the whole, allowing them to lead the teams these us born players star on to victories while also allowing them to take in more capital.
Also as an aside, for the truly elite us players like trout/harper it also increases their appeal from a marketing perspective as the language and culture barriers make these Cuban stars less marketable and thus the more Cuban stars who excel yet are no
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Post by m1keyboots on Feb 24, 2015 0:30:04 GMT -5
I said it before originally, I don't think the moncada signing should be so universally praised, not trying to be pessimistic. I happen to believe hell be ready in 1-2 years max. Likely less. With the team we put together of guys in their prime, or pre-prime, I don't see where he fits in. Someone is going to get tradedx and there is a lot of investment in thr infield. Pablo Doesn't WANT to dh despite what ppl seem to think he'll so gladly Accept. He wants to play third. I can dig that considering how good he can be there. Pedey is not moving off second unless he god forbid serves into Fenway park, and bogaerts is believed to be our next middle of the order power bat. If the outfield implodes and Moncada wants to play left in 3 years, color me pinstripes and call me stupid
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Post by ramireja on Feb 24, 2015 1:06:57 GMT -5
Go on nyyfans, there thread is up to 125 about Yoan Moncada. If you took calculate measurements of snow fall in boston this year or Yankee tears for not signing this kid it would be very close. That was very enjoyable, thanks for the tip. For those interested, on Page 87, that start to get pretty cocky about signing him. On Page 94 all hell breaks loose. Its like watching a replay of Seahawk fan reactions to last drive of the Super Bowl... |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 24, 2015 1:24:26 GMT -5
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