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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 15, 2015 21:24:46 GMT -5
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Post by bookiemetts on Mar 15, 2015 23:05:33 GMT -5
Mmm it's a nice read. If anyone has reached the Boston Globe 5 article limit you can open it in an incognito window to read it. It's definitely interesting how they got the five different pitchers to throw to him. I wonder if they could have taken some pitchers already in the system to throw him BP if the process was going on around this time. |
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 15, 2015 23:45:56 GMT -5
Did a search for the terms Yoan Moncada Taiwan and this video popped up. Looks as if it's been posted in a few places, but I don't think it's on this site yet. This is the first time that the Sox had a chance to scout Moncada. The footage is from Cuba vs. the US, 18U World Cup in Taichung, Taiwan 2013. The speed is a real eye-opener. He does appear to pull something running out a bunt on his last at bat. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 16, 2015 6:18:16 GMT -5
I really hope "go to 31" doesn't become the new "impact, dominate"
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 16, 2015 6:48:33 GMT -5
I really hope "go to 31" doesn't become the new "impact, dominate" It would have been cooler had the Sox assigned 31 to him instead of 22. On the other hand, 22 is more than likely to be available next year. |
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 16, 2015 8:38:07 GMT -5
... The Yankees, otoh, are a mess. They weren't prepared for the Moncada negotiations, having to hold multiple workouts to attempt to convince ownership to set a good price, and then they issue a stupid "take this in an hour" ultimatum that completely misread the game Hastings was playing. They lurch around, sometimes profligate, sometimes oddly stingy. Their money will still help them, but they sure seem like a long way from glory. It was obvious from my perch way out here in the interior NW, that Hastings was a straight shooter, and that this wasn't his regular gig. That understanding came simply from reading the newswire stories about the guy. The Yanks didn't do their homework and, as I wrote earlier, they badly screwed up the situation by getting the wrong read on the players. Time for the FO and ownership to sit down and figure that out. But if it really is disfunctional at this point, that might not happen. |
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dd
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Post by dd on Mar 16, 2015 8:54:29 GMT -5
... The Yankees, otoh, are a mess. They weren't prepared for the Moncada negotiations, having to hold multiple workouts to attempt to convince ownership to set a good price, and then they issue a stupid "take this in an hour" ultimatum that completely misread the game Hastings was playing. They lurch around, sometimes profligate, sometimes oddly stingy. Their money will still help them, but they sure seem like a long way from glory. It was obvious from my perch way out here in the interior NW, that Hastings was a straight shooter, and that this wasn't his regular gig. That understanding came simply from reading the newswire stories about the guy. The Yanks didn't do their homework and, as I wrote earlier, they badly screwed up the situation by getting the wrong read on the players. Time for the FO and ownership to sit down and figure that out. But if it really is disfunctional at this point, that might not happen. I, for one, get a great deal of enjoyment from disfunction in the NYY organization. I wish them continued success. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 16, 2015 9:13:58 GMT -5
dd love the geezer GIF
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Josh Norris ?@jnorris427
Got a little bit of a look at Yoan Moncada during infield today. One thing that jumps out: lightning quick hands. #redsox
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Post by iakovos11 on Mar 17, 2015 12:20:27 GMT -5
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Post by klostrophobic on Mar 17, 2015 13:28:43 GMT -5
Greenville sounds good. Mookie started 2013 there and finished 2014 with 213 MLB atbats. If Moncada is as legit, he could be up late next year, at age 21.
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nomar
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Posts: 11,622
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Post by nomar on Mar 17, 2015 17:16:42 GMT -5
Starting him in Greenville sounds perfect to me. To avoid people freaking out and any negative attention, he's going to have to perform well there right away. Should be able to, but it's been a long time between games for Moncada.
After watching that BA video: He looks smooth as it gets at 2B. And his bat whips right through the zone from the left side. Ton of bat speed, plane looks good for loft, and doesn't look too long. Easy to see why he is so hyped. From the right side he looked a lot less impressive though, as expected. Hard to put an exact word on it, but to me Monada's swing looked loopy from that side of the plate. Regardless, I hope he's the next big name in the prospect world.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 17, 2015 17:53:02 GMT -5
... The Yankees, otoh, are a mess. They weren't prepared for the Moncada negotiations, having to hold multiple workouts to attempt to convince ownership to set a good price, and then they issue a stupid "take this in an hour" ultimatum that completely misread the game Hastings was playing. They lurch around, sometimes profligate, sometimes oddly stingy. Their money will still help them, but they sure seem like a long way from glory. It was obvious from my perch way out here in the interior NW, that Hastings was a straight shooter, and that this wasn't his regular gig. That understanding came simply from reading the newswire stories about the guy. The Yanks didn't do their homework and, as I wrote earlier, they badly screwed up the situation by getting the wrong read on the players. Time for the FO and ownership to sit down and figure that out. But if it really is disfunctional at this point, that might not happen. If we define dysfunction as other teams actually winning on these type deals, I agree with these 2 posts. But I am of the thought that the Yankees, while slow to react to the changing economics of other teams positive cash flows, are also reassessing their business model and that change is opening doors that normally were not there. Someone could justifiably point out that they spent alot of money in last years FA binge...but I see a team that is waiting for some big contracts to get off the books before they engage in risky investments (and Moncada is that) Even last years contracts were different in length than some of the 10 year FA contracts they used to dole out. I would hesitate to call it a mess. |
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 17, 2015 18:56:23 GMT -5
Good points. I get the feeling that Cashman's been trying to drag ownership along, that it's a slog. That said, the points that were made by Brian ring true in that the team seems almost schizoid in the way it spends money. They'll buyout the market one day, and then pull back on what seems like a no brainer on another.
I do believe they are trying to change their model, but I also believe there's a bit of internal friction. The adamant refusal to go any higher on Moncada was a shocker. It's why I think they misunderstood the situation. If they are going to try and rebuild their system, what better way to do it than with a highly touted player who won't bust the cap or cost them draft picks? This is someone who's major league career they could control for six years. As owners of those rights, they'd also be the ones who might entice him into an extension if he does prove out. Now Boston gets that golden opportunity.
Which brings me back to my question: Why play hardball with a neophyte agent who's just trying to get the best deal and is open about what others have offered? Where did the line in the sand come from, and why?
Like I said, they need to sit down and debrief, try to understand how this happened.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 17, 2015 19:46:26 GMT -5
Good points. I get the feeling that Cashman's been trying to drag ownership along, that it's a slog. That said, the points that were made by Brian ring true in that the team seems almost schizoid in the way it spends money. They'll buyout the market one day, and then pull back on what seems like a no brainer on another. I do believe they are trying to change their model, but I also believe there's a bit of internal friction. The adamant refusal to go any higher on Moncada was a shocker. It's why I think they misunderstood the situation. If they are going to try and rebuild their system, what better way to do it than with a highly touted player who won't bust the cap or cost them draft picks? This is someone who's major league career they could control for six years. As owners of those rights, they'd also be the ones who might entice him into an extension if he does prove out. Now Boston gets that golden opportunity. Which brings me back to my question: Why play hardball with a neophyte agent who's just trying to get the best deal and is open about what others have offered? Where did the line in the sand come from, and why? Like I said, they need to sit down and debrief, try to understand how this happened. I agree. It was easier for them when George just opened the checkbook. And that one change may be the genesis for the tension. As far as the line in the sand...it really could just be a change in how we view the Yankees from past experiences.....they had an internal valuation and weren't going past it. Maybe an oversimplification...but we are able to accept that when the Sox make those decisions...maybe that is how the Yanks are going to do it. They will always have more monopoly money....but their trying to be smarter with risk. IOW, we are prejudiced by our past experiences in dealing with the SOB's |
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Post by WindyCityRedSox169 on Mar 17, 2015 19:57:45 GMT -5
Norm as to their adamant refusal to go any higher on Moncada, isn't that the point of a new business model? Before the Yankees would say a few more million not a problem. Now they are assigning a value to a player and not going any higher. Is that right in this particular case?
Yes they are trying to rebuild their farm system but haven't they already done that on a bunch of lotto kids? Yes Moncada is more highly touted and I am thrilled he is a member of the Sox however he is still very risky and needs quite a bit of seasoning still before he is ready for the big leagues.
Yes there are incredible incentives to signing him but isn't the downside pretty large for a team trying to dwindle their payroll as well?
I don't think there system is incredibly weak and arguably in a year we will look back and it will be underrated at this time as they have talent there, however isn't the more prudent move for a not so stacked farm system at a time is to accumulate assets as opposed to betting big on one guy?
They spent a sizable amount liked the guy but weren't going to go whatever was necessary.
Their negotiating tactics were clearly hoping to fluster and bully a new agent which was not the right decision.
I don't see how they need to sit down and debrief, and try to understand how this happened. This happened because they weren't willing to spend the most money. That was a sit down and decision they made before Moncada. If they tried the ultimatum but instead offered $35 million I am guessing Moncada is in pinstripes. Even if they were very cordial at the end if they weren't willing to go to $30 million it seems like they didn't have a chance.
Unless they re-evaluate and say regardless of cost we are getting every IFA available to us until the draft this won't really impact them. Nor should it if they believe in their talent evaluation.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 17, 2015 22:17:16 GMT -5
I'd be willing to go along with all of that, except for the noise we heard about their not believing the agent, and giving him one hour to take it or leave it. That isn't a negotiating strategy, it's an ultimatum, and it doesn't seem all that smart. And the payroll stuff isn't relevant in my mind. He wouldn't have had any impact their ML payroll at all. The additional dollars he might have cost them - in bonus and penalty - amounts to maybe 1.5 wins above replacement. That's so little additional risk as to be pocket change for the biggest of the big-market teams.
So it goes. There will be other options for them, I'm sure. I'm just glad that they were decisive on their end, if that's what it was, and that the Sox were decisive on their - winning - end also.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 18, 2015 8:01:53 GMT -5
Yea the key here is it has zero impact on the major league payroll or luxury tax. The other point is they were over their international spending limit as well and that combined with the draft cap means they will not be spending much money at the armature level the next couple off seasons. Add those things together and the Yankees, should have done everything they could to get a young potential star player they obviously coveted....
Just doesn't make sense. They have the money and we all know the best way to save money long term is to have a strong farm system.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 18, 2015 8:17:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not buying that they assigned a value to a player and stuck to it. This is the one time they didn't have to do that and there were literally zero reasons to do that. There is no business model for 19 year old Cubans.
The other reason why it was virtually zero risk for them is that they weren't tying up a 25-man roster spot. If Moncada busts, they don't have to keep him around like ARod.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Mar 18, 2015 8:31:52 GMT -5
Good points. I get the feeling that Cashman's been trying to drag ownership along, that it's a slog. That said, the points that were made by Brian ring true in that the team seems almost schizoid in the way it spends money. They'll buyout the market one day, and then pull back on what seems like a no brainer on another. I do believe they are trying to change their model, but I also believe there's a bit of internal friction. The adamant refusal to go any higher on Moncada was a shocker. It's why I think they misunderstood the situation. If they are going to try and rebuild their system, what better way to do it than with a highly touted player who won't bust the cap or cost them draft picks? This is someone who's major league career they could control for six years. As owners of those rights, they'd also be the ones who might entice him into an extension if he does prove out. Now Boston gets that golden opportunity. Which brings me back to my question: Why play hardball with a neophyte agent who's just trying to get the best deal and is open about what others have offered? Where did the line in the sand come from, and why? Like I said, they need to sit down and debrief, try to understand how this happened. I agree. It was easier for them when George just opened the checkbook. And that one change may be the genesis for the tension. As far as the line in the sand...it really could just be a change in how we view the Yankees from past experiences.....they had an internal valuation and weren't going past it. Maybe an oversimplification...but we are able to accept that when the Sox make those decisions...maybe that is how the Yanks are going to do it. They will always have more monopoly money....but their trying to be smarter with risk. IOW, we are prejudiced by our past experiences in dealing with the SOB's It's not just the fact that they lost out on Moncada that made me say that ... really, if they valued him at $25 million, they were right to stick to that. I mean, that's exactly what happened with the Red Sox and Jose Abreu, so it's not ipso facto evidence of a dysfunctional organization. It's more the whole process and how they went about it and how it fits into what I see as their pattern. Take the workouts as an example: the Sox were prepared and had all the decision-makers present (all baseball people), ran Moncada threw a wide gauntlet of tests and workouts, had him face a lot of starters, and felt they got the information they needed from that workout and never held another. Then they processed that information, made the recommendation to ownership, and ownership trusted their evaluation and agreed to the amount. OTOH, the Yankees had to bring him back for three different workouts in front of a shifting array of people, including at least one with ownership to try to "sell" them on the prospect and get money agreed to. They didn't have the relationship with the agent that the Red Sox had and misread his methods, and then when they lost you had Cashman out with some passive-aggressive comments about how they couldn't afford him because of previous decisions on major league players. And then htere was the comment from ownership that they thought the extra money was better spent on the major league roster. That's asinine and completely counter to other comments they've made about prioritizing building a strong organization from the ground up. One organization had a plan, had built a foundation upon which to operate, and clearly had a decision-making process where everyone had their role and understood that role. The other organization was flailing around unprepared, with overlapping responsibilities and lack of trust from ownership, and public comments that were counter to other comments about their priorities and at odds with each other. That's just a striking contrast in functionality between the two organizations. |
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Post by WindyCityRedSox169 on Mar 18, 2015 8:49:46 GMT -5
I'd be willing to go along with all of that, except for the noise we heard about their not believing the agent, and giving him one hour to take it or leave it. That isn't a negotiating strategy, it's an ultimatum, and it doesn't seem all that smart. And the payroll stuff isn't relevant in my mind. He wouldn't have had any impact their ML payroll at all. The additional dollars he might have cost them - in bonus and penalty - amounts to maybe 1.5 wins above replacement. That's so little additional risk as to be pocket change for the biggest of the big-market teams. So it goes. There will be other options for them, I'm sure. I'm just glad that they were decisive on their end, if that's what it was, and that the Sox were decisive on their - winning - end also. As to the ultimatum not being a negotiating strategy, of course it is. It is a hard line negotiating strategy that is very boom or bust. Either you bully the other negotiating party into making a rash decision and bullying them into accepting an offer at the price you want. The other end of that is you risk upsetting the other party and having them turned off by your negotiating tactics. That seems to be the case here, however you don't really know as they were $4MM off from the Sox. The noise about believing their agent on the numbers was the fault of theirs but it isn't like an agent has never lied about offers before, Hastings was up front and that was their biggest mistake not believing the top offer. You say the payroll stuff isn't relevant in your mind. I get that he doesn't have any impact on their ML payroll at all. However there is still a budget relating to minor league guys. Rightly or wrongly they are choosing a path of assigning value to every player. They deemed him worth $27MM, bottom line. Originally they were willing to go to $25MM and pushed it up. Is that not different than the Red Sox going up $4MM from $27MM to $31MM? They liked him, just didn't value him quite enough. It is so little risk but when you start sliding to meet demands it creates a sliding effect down the line potentially of well here is a few million and it starts to add up. I think they should have valued him higher as well but at the end of the day they are determining their new approach and it aided us this time around. |
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Post by WindyCityRedSox169 on Mar 18, 2015 8:56:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not buying that they assigned a value to a player and stuck to it. This is the one time they didn't have to do that and there were literally zero reasons to do that. There is no business model for 19 year old Cubans. The other reason why it was virtually zero risk for them is that they weren't tying up a 25-man roster spot. If Moncada busts, they don't have to keep him around like ARod. Absolutely they did. You are saying anything off the major league payroll should just go to the end extreme to get players. How is this any different than pre-draft rules when you could give a kid any bonus you wanted? They didn't take up a 40 man spot, it didn't count towards the luxury tax and yet every team (including the Red Sox) had some type of valuation on a kid and didn't sign every top guy that fell. Yes there are no business models for 19 year old Cubans but there is a business model on highly touted international free agents. As for the risk of course there is a risk. If Moncada busts they paid $60MM for a sunk cost. Yes you aren't keeping him around but it is still money spent and money allocated elsewhere that could have been spent on other players. Teams have budgets for non-MLB related payroll and I am guessing if Hastings came in and said I want $45MM the Red Sox wouldn't have gone that high for him IMO. I think they should have met the demands too but it is their new business model. |
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 18, 2015 9:49:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not buying that they assigned a value to a player and stuck to it. This is the one time they didn't have to do that and there were literally zero reasons to do that. There is no business model for 19 year old Cubans. The other reason why it was virtually zero risk for them is that they weren't tying up a 25-man roster spot. If Moncada busts, they don't have to keep him around like ARod. Absolutely they did. You are saying anything off the major league payroll should just go to the end extreme to get players. How is this any different than pre-draft rules when you could give a kid any bonus you wanted? They didn't take up a 40 man spot, it didn't count towards the luxury tax and yet every team (including the Red Sox) had some type of valuation on a kid and didn't sign every top guy that fell. Yes there are no business models for 19 year old Cubans but there is a business model on highly touted international free agents. As for the risk of course there is a risk. If Moncada busts they paid $60MM for a sunk cost. Yes you aren't keeping him around but it is still money spent and money allocated elsewhere that could have been spent on other players. Teams have budgets for non-MLB related payroll and I am guessing if Hastings came in and said I want $45MM the Red Sox wouldn't have gone that high for him IMO. I think they should have met the demands too but it is their new business model. Then they value their players wrong. And there is no business model on highly touted international free agents who are 19 and not ready for the majors. |
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Post by WindyCityRedSox169 on Mar 18, 2015 9:54:05 GMT -5
Of course there is a business model. It is valuing each case independently, evaluating the risks/rewards, assigning how much money they deem acceptable to take on the risk while possibly seeing incredibly upside.
As opposed to the old business model which when George was there was go a dollar higher on everyone we want.
In this case the new model lost out on a prime talent, while the ladder would have likely got it done.
I do agree they value their players wrong and that can be said for the last 10-15 years.
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alnipper
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Living the dream
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Post by alnipper on Mar 18, 2015 10:27:29 GMT -5
Starting him in Greenville sounds perfect to me. To avoid people freaking out and any negative attention, he's going to have to perform well there right away. Should be able to, but it's been a long time between games for Moncada. After watching that BA video: He looks smooth as it gets at 2B. And his bat whips right through the zone from the left side. Ton of bat speed, plane looks good for loft, and doesn't look too long. Easy to see why he is so hyped. From the right side he looked a lot less impressive though, as expected. Hard to put an exact word on it, but to me Monada's swing looked loopy from that side of the plate. Regardless, I hope he's the next big name in the prospect world. I totally agree on your evaluation of his swings. I noticed bat speed from the right side. Getting his mechanics worked out from the right side might slow his progression. His bat speed is insanely fast to me. He has elite bat speed. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 18, 2015 10:37:51 GMT -5
I should think that for any young switch hitter, the right side would be the least advanced since the majority of pitchers are right handed. No major surprise for me.
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