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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 23, 2015 10:07:04 GMT -5
Well not to worry it was 14 seconds
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 23, 2015 10:08:56 GMT -5
Hanley is too bulked up because we watched him play there last year and that was obviously a problem for him. Some guys are bulky and can be flexible enough and agile enough. Hanley couldn't because he showed he couldn't Or it's possible that bodies are different when they're 21 than they are at 31. I was answering Sarasox question about why we said Hanley was too bulked up. There is a difference between making an observation after the fact than a prediction beforehand |
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 23, 2015 10:12:49 GMT -5
Well not to worry it was 14 seconds It wasn't the 14 seconds, or the shoulder shrugs for me, just the fact that he looks literally like a middle linebacker. Rather have him look like a safety. |
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Post by greatscottcooper on Nov 23, 2015 10:25:15 GMT -5
If there's one thing I love about internet sports commentary, it's various professors of Bro Science criticizing a professional athlete's workout plan based on six seconds of video. More of these important takes please. Well......I do have a degree in health and human performance....so there is that. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 23, 2015 11:13:56 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the full context of the reports were that Hanley was asked to slim down because he was returning to the infield. I don't think anyone has ever said that added bulk hindered Hanley this year, or that it at least was the primary problem as opposed to, say, effort on that side of the ball.
Now of course, as an infielder, Moncada would, in theory, have that issue. That said, we have absolutely no clue what's in the Red Sox offseason conditioning program, and for all we know, he decided to do some shrugs at the end of completing the program they gave him. As FTHW said, let's chill out about six 14 seconds of video.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 23, 2015 12:38:37 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the full context of the reports were that Hanley was asked to slim down because he was returning to the infield. I don't think anyone has ever said that added bulk hindered Hanley this year, or that it at least was the primary problem as opposed to, say, effort on that side of the ball. Now of course, as an infielder, Moncada would, in theory, have that issue. That said, we have absolutely no clue what's in the Red Sox offseason conditioning program, and for all we know, he decided to do some shrugs at the end of completing the program they gave him. As FTHW said, let's chill out about six 14 seconds of video. According to the eye test, it sure did look like Hanley's bulk contributed to his inability to move. Or maybe that was just his brain that was acting slowly. |
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,611
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Post by nomar on Nov 23, 2015 12:49:55 GMT -5
Hanley looked like he was running in a suit of armor all year. So uncomfortable looking, and that's not even delving into how ridiculous the helmet situation with him is.
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Post by dirtywater on Nov 23, 2015 13:02:23 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the full context of the reports were that Hanley was asked to slim down because he was returning to the infield. I don't think anyone has ever said that added bulk hindered Hanley this year, or that it at least was the primary problem as opposed to, say, effort on that side of the ball. Now of course, as an infielder, Moncada would, in theory, have that issue. That said, we have absolutely no clue what's in the Red Sox offseason conditioning program, and for all we know, he decided to do some shrugs at the end of completing the program they gave him. As FTHW said, let's chill out about six 14 seconds of video. According to the eye test, it sure did look like Hanley's bulk contributed to his inability to move. Or maybe that was just his brain that was acting slowly. Or maybe Hanley just was simply a guy who had never played outfield in his entire life and didn't have the mental capacity to figure out - on the fly - how to correctly judge dozens of types of batted balls that a typical outfielder sees on a daily basis. Now I can't say with 100% confidence the outfield was all a mental thing. The narrative of the Boston media desperately WANTED the story to be that he was out of shape / clubhouse cancer /didn't put the work in, but I still never saw one verified report that this was the case. The fact of the matter is, if a player doesn't know what they are doing in the OF, they are going to look lethargic, slow and general inept regardless of what shape they are in physically. My guess is the injuries played a large part into him looking slow as well. But like I said, we are never going to have 100% proof what the true reason was, but it seems as if it could have been a combination of a multitude things. |
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Post by beasleyrockah on Nov 23, 2015 13:13:41 GMT -5
Sure, Hanley bulked up last year, but so did Harper. So Moncada will either be incapable of playing the outfield or he'll win an MVP by the time he's 23.
But seriously, do you guys remember the 90s and early to mid 2000s? I saw plenty of muscular players handle the infield and outfield just fine.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 23, 2015 13:27:33 GMT -5
Yea, I'm not sure I'm going to get on a guy for getting stronger and bigger, especially when at minimum it shows the motivation to move in a certain direction.
I think we need to just throw Hanley's experience in LF away. Between his body size/type, his age, and his flat out inability to improve, it just wasn't going to work. Put a 21 year old Hanley Ramirez in LF and you probably at minimum see improvement. It's why I'm hesitant with him at 1B, but a hell of a lot less hesitant than randomly throwing him in LF, as getting reads off the ball aren't needed nearly as often. Learn to cover the bag when necessary, be ok at picking balls out of the dirt, and just don't do anything completely moronic, and he will be fine
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 23, 2015 14:12:33 GMT -5
I think people often forget how important first base defense is until it's gone. His poor defense may show up more in the other defenders than himself
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 23, 2015 14:27:45 GMT -5
I think people often forget how important first base defense is until it's gone. His poor defense may show up more in the other defenders than himself Let's see what he does. He wasn't *atrocious* (according to fangraphs def rating) at 3rd in 2013 and 2014, and generally 3b's move across the diamond when they suck defensively. At least first will be using a skill set he's been working on his entire career. |
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Nov 23, 2015 14:27:46 GMT -5
Well not to worry it was 14 seconds It wasn't the 14 seconds, or the shoulder shrugs for me, just the fact that he looks literally like a middle linebacker. Rather have him look like a safety. So more like Laron Landry And less like Jamie Collins,got it. Who cares what he looks like if his body can adapt to it. Landry, your safety, is ripped and moves like a sloth, collins, the linebacker is also ripped is out there jumping over linemen and doing flips in his backyard. Let's wait till we see this kid in the field before we criticize him. |
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 23, 2015 15:15:05 GMT -5
It wasn't the 14 seconds, or the shoulder shrugs for me, just the fact that he looks literally like a middle linebacker. Rather have him look like a safety. So more like Laron Landry And less like Jamie Collins,got it. Who cares what he looks like if his body can adapt to it. Landry, your safety, is ripped and moves like a sloth, collins, the linebacker is also ripped is out there jumping over linemen and doing flips in his backyard. Let's wait till we see this kid in the field before we criticize him. Notice that most linebackers (and safeties) for that matter are done by age 30 with a few elite exceptions. I find it hard to believe that baseball players benefit from being built like bodybuilders. I'm sure Moncada will be fine while he's under Red Sox control because of his age. |
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 23, 2015 15:22:34 GMT -5
I think people often forget how important first base defense is until it's gone. His poor defense may show up more in the other defenders than himself Let's see what he does. He wasn't *atrocious* (according to fangraphs def rating) at 3rd in 2013 and 2014, and generally 3b's move across the diamond when they suck defensively. At least first will be using a skill set he's been working on his entire career. I just remember ARod playing 1B in preseason last spring and saw just how terrible he was. The Yankees were planning on him playing there at times during the season. He ended up playing 9 2/3 innings at 1B and didn't make it through them without committing an error. There is a lot of footwork involved at 1B which is not natural for a SS or 3B. He doesn't exactly move like a ballerina. I am expecting a disaster again. I don't really understand why anyone is comfortable with Hanley learning anything new in the field and being ok at it after last season. Where was that article that said no gm's asked would take Hanley at a 50% discount? |
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Nov 23, 2015 15:23:16 GMT -5
So more like Laron Landry And less like Jamie Collins,got it. Who cares what he looks like if his body can adapt to it. Landry, your safety, is ripped and moves like a sloth, collins, the linebacker is also ripped is out there jumping over linemen and doing flips in his backyard. Let's wait till we see this kid in the field before we criticize him. Notice that most linebackers (and safeties) for that matter are done by age 30 with a few elite exceptions. I find it hard to believe that baseball players benefit from being built like bodybuilders. I'm sure Moncada will be fine while he's under Red Sox control because of his age. I mean, the same can be said for any position in the NFL, that is a 7-8 year career.I'm just pointing out that body type is unique to the individual, no need for a mass panic. What we need is a free agent signing so we can talk about real baseball issues. |
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 23, 2015 15:28:03 GMT -5
Let's see what he does. He wasn't *atrocious* (according to fangraphs def rating) at 3rd in 2013 and 2014, and generally 3b's move across the diamond when they suck defensively. At least first will be using a skill set he's been working on his entire career. I just remember ARod playing 1B in preseason last spring and saw just how terrible he was. The Yankees were planning on him playing there at times during the season. He ended up playing 9 2/3 innings at 1B and didn't make it through them without committing an error. There is a lot of footwork involved at 1B which is not natural for a SS or 3B. He doesn't exactly move like a ballerina. I am expecting a disaster again. I don't really understand why anyone is comfortable with Hanley learning anything new in the field and being ok at it after last season. Where was that article that said no gm's asked would take Hanley at a 50% discount? Look, I'm not going to base what Hanley can do around another player. For every A-Rod (who's old and has hip conditions) there are a myriad of guys who have made the move. I'm not saying he'll be great, I'm just willing to see what happens. Could be a disaster, could be passable. Mike Napoli ended up being an asset over there, and that was wildly different footwork. And Fangraphs even rated Napoli as a below average defender in 2014, and to be honest, I didn't notice at the time. I think it's all kind of moot because I think they're in wait and see mode with him. They don't want to eat 80% of his contract, especially with Ortiz retiring, so they're probably fine with seeing what he does. Him going off and playing winter ball is a good start. Honestly didn't see that coming. |
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Post by jmei on Nov 23, 2015 15:36:44 GMT -5
And Fangraphs even rated Napoli as a below average defender in 2014, and to be honest, I didn't notice at the time. Nit-pick-- both UZR (which is the defensive rating that Fangraphs uses) and DRS (which is the defensive rating that B-R uses) rated Napoli as an above-average defender at 1B in 2014. You're probably looking at the "Def" stat, which combines UZR (i.e., how good a certain player was at his given position) and the positional adjustment (i.e., how defensively challenging a player's defensive position was). |
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 23, 2015 15:39:00 GMT -5
I just remember ARod playing 1B in preseason last spring and saw just how terrible he was. The Yankees were planning on him playing there at times during the season. He ended up playing 9 2/3 innings at 1B and didn't make it through them without committing an error. There is a lot of footwork involved at 1B which is not natural for a SS or 3B. He doesn't exactly move like a ballerina. I am expecting a disaster again. I don't really understand why anyone is comfortable with Hanley learning anything new in the field and being ok at it after last season. Where was that article that said no gm's asked would take Hanley at a 50% discount? Look, I'm not going to base what Hanley can do around another player. For every A-Rod (who's old and has hip conditions) there are a myriad of guys who have made the move. I'm not saying he'll be great, I'm just willing to see what happens. Could be a disaster, could be passable. Mike Napoli ended up being an asset over there, and that was wildly different footwork. And Fangraphs even rated Napoli as a below average defender in 2014, and to be honest, I didn't notice at the time. I think it's all kind of moot because I think they're in wait and see mode with him. They don't want to eat 80% of his contract, especially with Ortiz retiring, so they're probably fine with seeing what he does. Him going off and playing winter ball is a good start. Honestly didn't see that coming. I guess the difference is that Arod used to be an elite defensive SS and that didn't make him look comfortable at 1B. Yeah I get that he had a year off and was 40, but he doesn't move any more slowly than Hanley from my eye test. Best hope is that Hanley kills it in the gym this winter and shows up fast and flexible in the spring instead of like an actual bodybuilder who can't move because his muscles are too big. Seriously, I bet Papi would be a better 1B if he could play the field without wearing down. |
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 23, 2015 15:42:26 GMT -5
And Fangraphs even rated Napoli as a below average defender in 2014, and to be honest, I didn't notice at the time. Nit-pick-- both UZR (which is the defensive rating that Fangraphs uses) and DRS (which is the defensive rating that B-R uses) rated Napoli as an above-average defender at 1B in 2014. You're probably looking at the "Def" stat, which combines UZR (i.e., how good a certain player was at his given position) and the positional adjustment (i.e., how defensively challenging a player's defensive position was). Yep, I don't think defensive metrics really tell the whole picture ever. That's just one I see that sometimes gives a good overall estimation, but I definitely see it as limited. UZR also doesn't factor in shifts and all that so it's all a little bit of a crapshoot. |
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 23, 2015 15:45:13 GMT -5
Look, I'm not going to base what Hanley can do around another player. For every A-Rod (who's old and has hip conditions) there are a myriad of guys who have made the move. I'm not saying he'll be great, I'm just willing to see what happens. Could be a disaster, could be passable. Mike Napoli ended up being an asset over there, and that was wildly different footwork. And Fangraphs even rated Napoli as a below average defender in 2014, and to be honest, I didn't notice at the time. I think it's all kind of moot because I think they're in wait and see mode with him. They don't want to eat 80% of his contract, especially with Ortiz retiring, so they're probably fine with seeing what he does. Him going off and playing winter ball is a good start. Honestly didn't see that coming. I guess the difference is that Arod used to be an elite defensive SS and that didn't make him look comfortable at 1B. Yeah I get that he had a year off and was 40, but he doesn't move any more slowly than Hanley from my eye test. Best hope is that Hanley kills it in the gym this winter and shows up fast and flexible in the spring instead of like an actual bodybuilder who can't move because his muscles are too big. Seriously, I bet Papi would be a better 1B if he could play the field without wearing down. Yeah hopefully he gets in a good groove. I think reps are important, so it's great to see him getting a bunch before spring, especially when they won't be televised or hugely reported down there in the dominican. I think Hanley definitely has an effort problem, but I think it's partly because he's kinda soft. I don't really have much to go on, but his body language just sometimes sorta looked like a guy who knew he sucked at left field, and just kinda shut down. Getting him going early on 1st and gaining some confidence is good. Just think it's a great sign he was for it, because it goes heavily against the narrative about his character. Him giving up his offseason is about as good of sign as we can get right now. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 23, 2015 18:16:18 GMT -5
So more like Laron Landry And less like Jamie Collins,got it. Who cares what he looks like if his body can adapt to it. Landry, your safety, is ripped and moves like a sloth, collins, the linebacker is also ripped is out there jumping over linemen and doing flips in his backyard. Let's wait till we see this kid in the field before we criticize him. Notice that most linebackers (and safeties) for that matter are done by age 30 with a few elite exceptions. I find it hard to believe that baseball players benefit from being built like bodybuilders. I'm sure Moncada will be fine while he's under Red Sox control because of his age. I'm going to go ahead and assume that the whole "running into other large human beings at high speed" thing has more to do with why NFL players have shorter careers than Major League Baseball players than body type does. |
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Post by heisenberg on Nov 23, 2015 19:54:12 GMT -5
If there's one thing I love about internet sports commentary, it's various professors of Bro Science criticizing a professional athlete's workout plan  |
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 4,202 
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Post by jimoh on Nov 23, 2015 19:59:42 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the full context of the reports were that Hanley was asked to slim down because he was returning to the infield. I don't think anyone has ever said that added bulk hindered Hanley this year, or that it at least was the primary problem as opposed to, say, effort on that side of the ball. [...] This Edes story suggests that the Sox think that Hanley's bulk both hindered his defense and contributed to his injuries: espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/47424/red-sox-ask-hanley-ramirez-to-drop-15-20-pounds"David Dombrowski suspects Hanley Ramirez decided it would be a good idea last winter, since he was moving to the outfield, to show up in Red Sox camp as a bulked-up version of himself, all the better to display the power he believed should come with the position. In doing so, however, Ramirez robbed himself of much of his athleticism, which made the move to the outfield painful to watch. In the view of the Red Sox, the added bulk also made him susceptible to injury, which is why, interim manager Torey Lovullo said Sunday, the Sox sent Ramirez home last week with a mandate: Drop 15 to 20 pounds. Ramirez actually looked like he was on to something in April when he slugged a team-leading 10 home runs. But he never looked comfortable in the outfield, often appearing slow and ponderous..." |
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 24, 2015 3:55:27 GMT -5
Hell, if Hanley can hit like he did through June, basically pre-injury, even sub level defense makes him a potential elite player. His surplus value, or even value close to his salary, will come from his bat. I hope he is able to do whatever will help him be an elite hitter who could still be able to post a 130 wRC+, which could put him close to Ortiz
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