SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
What Can Be Done to Fix the Sox?
|
Post by jmei on Jun 14, 2015 12:39:13 GMT -5
I moved the Buchholz discussion to its own thread in the trade proposal subforum and started a consolidate trade deadline strategy thread there as well. As a reminder, let's keep trade-centered discussion to that forum. Thanks. I agree that specific trade proposals should not be here, but I don't see how we can write about what can be done to fix the Sox without some discussion of trading players, including specific players like Buchholz. This thread was initially focused on roster/lineup decisions, but as it comes closer to the trade deadline and they fall further out of it, it has veered more towards trade discussion. That's fine, but I'm generally of the belief that you can't have abstract trade discussion (e.g. "trade X") without it inevitably involving concrete hypothetical trades (e.g., "I'd only trade X for Y"), and as such, such discussion should be in the trade proposal subforum. I've started up a topic in that subforum to discuss those topics and encourage you to just shift it there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 14:26:37 GMT -5
It is fun to think how the Sox might be different today if Iglesias was at SS and Bogaerts had been moved to 3B in the minors before it might have become a problem for him. This front office has repeatedly deprioritized defense. Bogaerts passable ability to play SS was deemed to make Iglesias expendable, even though Iglesias is a very special defensive player. Even at the time, I simply did not understand the team's obstinate determination to keep Bogaerts at SS. Of course, since that time we've seen the team sign a free agent (Hanley) to play a position he'd never played before, sign another free agent (Sandoval) who's weight was already a concern with regard to his ability to continue playing his position, and play a second baseman (Betts) in center instead of a natural centerfielder (Bradley) who is again a very special defensive player. Perhaps management felt overly confident after having success in moving Napoli to first and Victorino to right field. Whatever the case, it hasn't turned out at all well. It would be nice to see a return to the fundamentals of solid pitching and solid defense, instead of trying to construct a team that resembles a Saturday softball beer league.
www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/06/13/pablo-sandoval-struggling-field/nNAdhbeitlpGZYXcW3Gx9M/story.html
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jun 14, 2015 14:31:17 GMT -5
Keeping Xander at SS turned out very well.
|
|
|
Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 14, 2015 14:33:51 GMT -5
Keeping Xander at SS turned out very well. Yup, just didn't get enough for Iglesia. Should have been able to get a young arm for him. Xander let playing 3b affect his game. He's much better than average defensively.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jun 14, 2015 14:37:13 GMT -5
Keeping Xander at SS turned out very well. Yup, just didn't get enough for Iglesia. Should have been able to get a young arm for him. Xander let playing 3b affect his game. He's much better than average defensively. Maybe we could have gotten Donaldson. But I hate going back in time and thinking about all this. Xander at SS doesn't put as much pressure on his bat. If Xander hits like we all dream about, he'll win an MVP someday.
|
|
steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 14, 2015 15:07:00 GMT -5
It is fun to think how the Sox might be different today if Iglesias was at SS and Bogaerts had been moved to 3B in the minors before it might have become a problem for him. This front office has repeatedly deprioritized defense. Bogaerts passable ability to play SS was deemed to make Iglesias expendable, even though Iglesias is a very special defensive player. Even at the time, I simply did not understand the team's obstinate determination to keep Bogaerts at SS. Of course, since that time we've seen the team sign a free agent (Hanley) to play a position he'd never played before, sign another free agent (Sandoval) who's weight was already a concern with regard to his ability to continue playing his position, and play a second baseman (Betts) in center instead of a natural centerfielder (Bradley) who is again a very special defensive player. Perhaps management felt overly confident after having success in moving Napoli to first and Victorino to right field. Whatever the case, it hasn't turned out at all well. It would be nice to see a return to the fundamentals of solid pitching and solid defense, instead of trying to construct a team that resembles a Saturday softball beer league.
www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/06/13/pablo-sandoval-struggling-field/nNAdhbeitlpGZYXcW3Gx9M/story.html
Certainly the notion of us being able to win some high scoring games seemed possible after this winter's moves. That in itself never wins pennants. The Sox, at one time, were thought of as bashers and somewhat below average defenders, and it got us no where. It wasn't until we started to play solid defense and get solid pitching that we were able to break through and win those 3 championships. Baseball doesn't change much with respect to who wins consistently. Winners play solid defensive baseball, get good pitching pretty much every day, and hit with men on base. This year....none of those things are apparent. Just trying to out-hit teams never works. It never leads to a Series victory lap. Our offense, currently, stinks....but there is potential for it to improve because of youngsters like Xander, Mookie, and Rusney. BUT....it is possible we will not see that until next year. These guys are going through growing pains and are not close to what they will eventually be. I'm HOPING and PRAYING that this Panda is going to be a average defender. I think he will, but he has lost confidence. Xander will be OK and Pedroia is excellent. Our catching will be much better, but maybe not until next year. The catching situation really HURT us this season!! The staff needs all of the help it can get. Hanley must be moved out of left unless he gets much better (don't see it). For me, Ortiz is currently playing for next year. Hanley may be our DH next season so we can improve our D in left. Bradley should be brought up and get his last big opportunity. Super D and maybe he finally has an idea what he needs to do at the plate. Anything above .260 is a big plus. Betts and Castillo will play the corners and immediately improve our outfield defense. Sign Cueto, Price, or Zimmerman this off season. We need an ace BADLY. We need hope each 5 days that will rub off on the other 4. This off season should be focused on improving our pitching!!!
|
|
|
Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 14, 2015 15:20:31 GMT -5
If Zimmerman goes to an AL Team, he won't be worth it. Price has Dodgers written all over him. Go ahead and sign Cueto if you want. Gonna cost 200m. Awfully risky for a team that is a long way from contending.
|
|
steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 14, 2015 16:30:10 GMT -5
If Zimmerman goes to an AL Team, he won't be worth it. Price has Dodgers written all over him. Go ahead and sign Cueto if you want. Gonna cost 200m. Awfully risky for a team that is a long way from contending. Not solidifying the rotation is a sure way of not competing next year. Not sure we are all fine with that. A team can turn itself around quickly, but the investment will have to hurt. Heading in the same direction is the usual doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. I have been so in your thinking until lately. But I think we can compete, but not until next season. We need someone who really gives us the confidence of stopping a losing streak. I think you are right that Cueto is the best possibility.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 16:45:53 GMT -5
Any grand scheme of fixing the Red Sox simply by throwing money at the situation is flawed by the financial reality that we have $84.5 million in guaranteed salary owed in 2016 to Hanley, Sandoval, Rusney, Craig, Porcello and Miley. That means that nearly half of next year's payroll is allocated to bad contracts. It's like the Sox have torn a page from the Ruben Amaro playbook "How to Financially Sabotage An MLB Team."
|
|
|
Post by grandsalami on Jun 14, 2015 17:21:57 GMT -5
“@peteabe: Things can change fast. But told postgame #RedSox ownership is not at a point of blaming this on Cherington or Farrell. No firings imminent.”
|
|
danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
|
Post by danr on Jun 14, 2015 17:44:50 GMT -5
diango, I think you are giving up on some players way too early. These players have adjustment problems of one kind or another, and are not performing as they should, based on their past records.
Hanley is a great hitter and I think he is going to be the next Ortiz. The priority with him is getting him off the field, which was the case with Ortiz, and it paid off.
I've argued all along that people worry far too much about Sandoval's weight. That is not his problem. He is going through a bad patch, but I think he will give the Sox several good years. He is a much better defender than we have seen recently.
It is impossible to assess Castillo. He hasn't had enough time. He seems to be a pretty good fielder and he definitely has some power. It is way too early to claim that his is a bad contract.
No argument on Craig. I feel sorry for the guy but I don't think he is going to make it back with the Sox. I think it was a reasonable risk to take a chance on him.
Porcello was a very good pitcher last year and he isn't consistently that pitcher yet with the Sox. He still is young, not even in his prime. I think he will be fine and give the Sox some solid pitching.
Miley was not himself for a while but he is doing better now. He is far from an ace, but OK as a fourth or fifth.
Every one of the top teams has top-ranked pitching. The Sox don't, and with what they have now, they won't. And they will not be a contender without it. The problem with the Sox rotation, other than the fact that everyone has had bad runs, is that no one has been exceptional, or is likely to be. There is no number 1 or number 2 pitcher except for Buchholz when he is in one of his good streaks. But you never know when that will end. I'm not counting Rodriguez because after today's performance we need to see more of him.
The Sox need a couple of ace-level pitchers. Maybe Rodriguez is one, but that's not enough. Johnson is not that guy. Owens may be, but with what he is going through this year, he may be further away than we thought he was. There is no one below AAA until the low levels with that kind of potential. They have to sign or trade for at least one.
The hitting, of course, is atrocious. I think it will improve some, but the heart of the batting order is problematical. Ortiz and Napoli should not be batting back to back anymore. I am not sure Napoli should be batting at all. De Aza should not be starting in the OF. I know it is the result of Betts getting hurt, but he is never going to be a good player. He cannot help the Sox. Trading for him made no sense.
At this point, with virtually no chance left to be a contender, the Sox should move into a rebuilding phase, and start getting rid of the players who will not be around next year - or shouldn't be. There are trades that can be made. There are players at Pawtucket who should be given opportunities. There need to be some promotions of players from lower levels so room needs to be made at the higher levels - and the highest level.
|
|
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,846
|
Post by wcp3 on Jun 14, 2015 17:55:33 GMT -5
“@peteabe: Things can change fast. But told postgame #RedSox ownership is not at a point of blaming this on Cherington or Farrell. No firings imminent.” Hmm, okay. Maybe the equipment manager is responsible for the entire roster underachieving.
|
|
|
Post by amfox1 on Jun 14, 2015 18:10:37 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 14, 2015 18:31:02 GMT -5
I honestly cant ever remember being this ambivalent about a Red Sox Team this early in the season. I feel like all the energy has been sucked out of me.
I am not a spoiled fan, and maybe I got greedy over the last 10 years, but the difference now is it doesn't seem like we can even field a .500 club. Even through all the dark years of the 80's and 90's, we pretty much always had decent clubs. I really don't know what to think, and I am not sure there is a solution to this years team.
|
|
|
Post by jdb on Jun 14, 2015 19:10:06 GMT -5
“@peteabe: Things can change fast. But told postgame #RedSox ownership is not at a point of blaming this on Cherington or Farrell. No firings imminent.” I think Farrell is Bens guy and he'll go down with him. If we get a new manager it's bc there's much bigger changes.
|
|
wbcd
Rookie
Posts: 33
|
Post by wbcd on Jun 14, 2015 19:35:38 GMT -5
. . . . we have $84.5 million in guaranteed salary owed in 2016 to Hanley, Sandoval, Rusney, Craig, Porcello and Miley.
Craig doesn't count against the salary cap at the moment. He was the kind of gamble one would expect a high-revenue team to take and if it doesn't work out, it's just the cost of doing business.
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 3,003
|
Post by TearsIn04 on Jun 14, 2015 19:54:49 GMT -5
This isn't really a suggestion to fix the RS, but it's an important step toward being competitive in 2016: they need to stay under $189 million in payroll here in 2015. That will give them the ability to go past $189 million in 2016 without getting crushed by a high luxury tax.
It's unclear to me where the 2015 payroll stands now based on AAV (which is what counts) and including benefits, etc. BRef has them at $182.4 and Cots says the cost of their 25-day opening day roster was $184.4 million. (For luxury tax purposes, it's the 40-man roster that counts.)
Given how close they're cutting it, I doubt that Allen Craig has a shot at getting back in the mix. And I think I read that they could do the same thing with Masterson. Giving Masterson the Craig treatment halfway through the season would knock off another $4.75 million for luxury tax purposes.
And of course, if they can move Napoli - though I think they'd have to eat some of his remaining 2015 salary - that would provide a bit more wiggle room. Ship Koji to a contender and they could save even more.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 20:15:02 GMT -5
. . . . we have $84.5 million in guaranteed salary owed in 2016 to Hanley, Sandoval, Rusney, Craig, Porcello and Miley.
Craig doesn't count against the salary cap at the moment. He was the kind of gamble one would expect a high-revenue team to take and if it doesn't work out, it's just the cost of doing business.
The Red Sox aren't the Dodgers. Regardless of salary cap, we do have an actual budget. Just to toss a few names out there, Scherzer, Lester and Shields combined won't cost their teams $84.5 million in 2016.
|
|
|
Post by bosox81 on Jun 14, 2015 22:00:34 GMT -5
The team has a top 3 farm system and dead money in the form of Napoli and Victorino coming off the books. They have been very unlucky in the sense that all their position prospects have struggled in their early going.
The worst thing they can do right now is make panic moves. However, a couple of things need to happen: 1. JBJ must get another long look. What have you got to lose at this point? 2. The DH spot must be made available for Hanley next season.
|
|
|
Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Jun 14, 2015 22:13:56 GMT -5
Given how close they're cutting it, I doubt that Allen Craig has a shot at getting back in the mix. And I think I read that they could do the same thing with Masterson. Giving Masterson the Craig treatment halfway through the season would knock off another $4.75 million for luxury tax purposes. Masterson had 6 1/2 years service time coming into this season, so if he ever cleared waivers ... they couldn't outright him without his permission, making him a free agent. If he ended up a free agent, the Sox are on the hook for the full season $ 9.5 million (minus any prorated portion of the minimum if he signs with another team).
I have seen no information that a released player does not count toward luxury tax.
reference: CRAIG: A player with 3 years of Major League service may refuse an outright assignment and choose to become a free agent immediately or at the end of the season.
MASTERSON: A player with 5 years of Major League service who refuses an outright assignment is entitled to the money due according to the terms of his contract. www.cbabaseball.com/rules/index.php?title=Outright_Assignment_(MLB)
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 14, 2015 22:26:25 GMT -5
There isn't anything that can be done to "fix" the 2015 Red Sox.
The question I have is how good will this team be in 2016? They're locked into Sandoval at 3b who is mediocre at best. They're locked into all of their position players except for Napoli, and as much sense as it makes to play Hanley at 1b next year, that could also backfire as the player doesn't want to play there and could pout if he's asked to, and/or also could be every bit as brutal at 1b as LF. With Ortiz set to come back at DH next year, Hanley won't be DHing.
I know there's a "trade" Ortiz sentiment, but Ortiz would have to be willing to go, and at this point is an icon the way Jeter was with the Yankees, who put up with a declining Jeter for a couple of years. Logic tells you that Hanley should be better over the course of the next few years, but the guy could get hurt, get his ego bruised, who knows? I actually trust Ortiz more than I trust Hanley. Either way I don't see Ortiz playing beyond next year, once he hits his 500th homer. I don't "dump" Ortiz so Hanley can DH, although I can see the logic to it.
They're stuck with the contracts of Porcello (who I haven't given up on quite yet, but worry that he's still more of a backend starter on a good team) and Miley, and will most likely pick up Buchholz's option. You figure Rodriguez, Johnson, Kelly, Wright, and eventually Owens battle for the last two spots.
It's obvious they need a legit ace starter, but I doubt the Sox spend all that money on a pitcher.
While they need it, my question is when do they REALLY need it?
I mean, if the Sox are basically the same team next year minus Napoli, aren't they really more than one good pitcher away from seriously contending? And if so, would that pitcher still be good when Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, and Castillo truly mature and when the next wave hits with Margot and Devers? That's important.
If the young core is improving, but it's offset by declining veterans - as Sandoval (who's young but has a body that's much older), Pedroia, Ortiz, and Ramirez aren't getting any younger, that they Sox are locked into contractually, can the Sox really be expected to improve dramatically in 2016?
The Cubs didn't sign Lester until they thought that they're ready to win. Are the Sox really ready to win in 2016? We thought they'd be in for a bounceback this season, but that's not the case.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 22:34:20 GMT -5
Trading Ortiz is a very dangerous proposition. You'd be throwing open the door to Hanley and Sandoval having entirely too much clubhouse influence.
|
|
|
Post by mgoetze on Jun 14, 2015 23:20:26 GMT -5
Not solidifying the rotation is a sure way of not competing next year. Not sure we are all fine with that. A team can turn itself around quickly, but the investment will have to hurt. Heading in the same direction is the usual doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Nice Cliché, but it just doesn't apply to baseball. You absolutely can do the same thing and get a different outcome in baseball, there's a lot of randomness involved.
|
|
|
Post by dcsoxfan on Jun 15, 2015 5:58:37 GMT -5
“@peteabe: Things can change fast. But told postgame #RedSox ownership is not at a point of blaming this on Cherington or Farrell. No firings imminent.” Hmm, okay. Maybe the equipment manager is responsible for the entire roster underachieving. Or maybe it's because John Henry recognizes that he has as much responsibility as anyone for the current situation. The organization made a number of decisions over the last decade in which it exchanged future wins for present wins. On top of that, it had a three year period of weak drafts (2008-2010). The team appears to have done better in recent years in acquiring amateur talent, but those players are still young or in the Minors. I suspect that Cherington and Farrell will keep their jobs, because the FO is working to a different timetable. The big contracts were only intended to make the team respectable in the short-term until the next wave of home-grown stars arrived. The short term plan may have failed, but the long term strategy may yet succeed.
|
|
steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 15, 2015 7:06:40 GMT -5
Not solidifying the rotation is a sure way of not competing next year. Not sure we are all fine with that. A team can turn itself around quickly, but the investment will have to hurt. Heading in the same direction is the usual doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Nice Cliché, but it just doesn't apply to baseball. You absolutely can do the same thing and get a different outcome in baseball, there's a lot of randomness involved. Interesting and very thought provoking. I have over the last 2 years totally agreed with the idea of completely staying away from long term contracts for starters 30 and over. There is a lot of data to back it up....but we may have to actually take a risk folks. I know the rational side of us are adverse to doing anything like that. But a 5 year contract to someone like Cueto may be our best bet to get back in contention. Not sure how we do it, but Hanley cannot stay in left next season, if what we get is this kind of effort. The pitchers have to cringe every time a ball goes in his direction. It is not only his response, but his baseball IQ is really poor. When I look at the starting eight....I can't get away from the poor defense on the left side. It is killing us on the score board and probably in the dugout. The only starter who we will be able to move (or want to move) is Mike Napoli. We could stay status quo or we could try something. What, at this time, do we have to lose? I know what most of you think about Allen Craig, but can he be much worse than Nap is currently, if we gave him one more chance? I would have Ortiz DH against only right-handed pitchers with Hanley there otherwise. I would have Ortiz take grounders daily and play him at first twice a week (you might as well get ready for inter-league anyway). Move Napoli and bring up Craig to play first on the days Ortiz is not. Bring Bradley up for the remainder of the season and make shoring up the defense a priority. Our outfield defense could become a plus, and at the moment we have none! Yes Ortiz is not great at first, but he has always been OK. Hanigan is almost ready, and will help behind the plate and with the pitchers. Will this all work? There is a good chance it won't. There is a good chance 2015 is not our year. But they need to attempt a different course. I won't use a cliché here.
|
|
|