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What Can Be Done to Fix the Sox?
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 15, 2015 7:42:58 GMT -5
Nice Cliché, but it just doesn't apply to baseball. You absolutely can do the same thing and get a different outcome in baseball, there's a lot of randomness involved. Interesting and very thought provoking. I have over the last 2 years totally agreed with the idea of completely staying away from long term contracts for starters 30 and over. There is a lot of data to back it up....but we may have to actually take a risk folks. I know the rational side of us are adverse to doing anything like that. But a 5 year contract to someone like Cueto may be our best bet to get back in contention. Not sure how we do it, but Hanley cannot stay in left next season, if what we get is this kind of effort. The pitchers have to cringe every time a ball goes in his direction. It is not only his response, but his baseball IQ is really poor. When I look at the starting eight....I can't get away from the poor defense on the left side. It is killing us on the score board and probably in the dugout. The only starter who we will be able to move (or want to move) is Mike Napoli. We could stay status quo or we could try something. What, at this time, do we have to lose? I know what most of you think about Allen Craig, but can he be much worse than Nap is currently, if we gave him one more chance? I would have Ortiz DH against only right-handed pitchers with Hanley there otherwise. I would have Ortiz take grounders daily and play him at first twice a week (you might as well get ready for inter-league anyway). Move Napoli and bring up Craig to play first on the days Ortiz is not. Bring Bradley up for the remainder of the season and make shoring up the defense a priority. Our outfield defense could become a plus, and at the moment we have none! Yes Ortiz is not great at first, but he has always been OK. Hanigan is almost ready, and will help behind the plate and with the pitchers. Will this all work? There is a good chance it won't. There is a good chance 2015 is not our year. But they need to attempt a different course. I won't use a cliché here. Steve, I admire your optimism. My glass is half empty. This year is done, cooked. We don't have the pitching staff and an all too familiar malaise has settled over the club. Nap has had too much sleep it appears (cough). Papi can't handle quality FBs even from RH. Craig is a RF Punch & Judy and Hanley should have been here when the chicken & beer crowd ruled...charter member. No, a house cleaning is coming. I would bet that Hanley gets jettisoned...can't stand his 'less than Cano' effort. Someone will want his still young bat. Miley will not give consistent quality starts and Masterson is beneath the streets of Boston...He will never return. Layne & Taz...ok...Time to ship the still valuable Koji to a team worthy of his remaining talents. I would like to pull a Rip Van Winkle or try cryogenics for the several years it will take to raise this Titanic. |
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Post by okin15 on Jun 15, 2015 7:44:10 GMT -5
What should be done? Realistically, what can be done? Nothing! (they are not fixable) |
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 15, 2015 8:24:37 GMT -5
Interesting and very thought provoking. I have over the last 2 years totally agreed with the idea of completely staying away from long term contracts for starters 30 and over. There is a lot of data to back it up....but we may have to actually take a risk folks. I know the rational side of us are adverse to doing anything like that. But a 5 year contract to someone like Cueto may be our best bet to get back in contention. Not sure how we do it, but Hanley cannot stay in left next season, if what we get is this kind of effort. The pitchers have to cringe every time a ball goes in his direction. It is not only his response, but his baseball IQ is really poor. When I look at the starting eight....I can't get away from the poor defense on the left side. It is killing us on the score board and probably in the dugout. The only starter who we will be able to move (or want to move) is Mike Napoli. We could stay status quo or we could try something. What, at this time, do we have to lose? I know what most of you think about Allen Craig, but can he be much worse than Nap is currently, if we gave him one more chance? I would have Ortiz DH against only right-handed pitchers with Hanley there otherwise. I would have Ortiz take grounders daily and play him at first twice a week (you might as well get ready for inter-league anyway). Move Napoli and bring up Craig to play first on the days Ortiz is not. Bring Bradley up for the remainder of the season and make shoring up the defense a priority. Our outfield defense could become a plus, and at the moment we have none! Yes Ortiz is not great at first, but he has always been OK. Hanigan is almost ready, and will help behind the plate and with the pitchers. Will this all work? There is a good chance it won't. There is a good chance 2015 is not our year. But they need to attempt a different course. I won't use a cliché here. Steve, I admire your optimism. My glass is half empty. This year is done, cooked. We don't have the pitching staff and an all too familiar malaise has settled over the club. Nap has had too much sleep it appears (cough). Papi can't handle quality FBs even from RH. Craig is a RF Punch & Judy and Hanley should have been here when the chicken & beer crowd ruled...charter member. No, a house cleaning is coming. I would bet that Hanley gets jettisoned...can't stand his 'less than Cano' effort. Someone will want his still young bat. Miley will not give consistent quality starts and Masterson is beneath the streets of Boston...He will never return. Layne & Taz...ok...Time to ship the still valuable Koji to a team worthy of his remaining talents. I would like to pull a Rip Van Winkle or try cryogenics for the several years it will take to raise this Titanic. Actually Ken, don't get me wrong......I think we are probably cooked also! The changes I propose are primarily to position ourselves for 2016. IF we have to put up with Hanley next season, I do not want to see him in left much, if at all. I like Mike Napoli but he is gone after this year.....so try to get a young arm or a relief pitcher that MAY help us in 2016. I think Ben Cherington has to start somewhere now for 2016 (and beyond). No more sugar coating the situation. No more fantasy thinking. This team does NOT fit together! I really do not like picking on Hanley Ramirez, but it is not only his terrible base running and outfield play. Our young kids (Xander, Mookie, Castillo, and Swihart) need positive role models. Pedroia is the only guy playing up to his abilities at all. I may be able to stomach seeing Hanley at the plate 4 times a game, but that is it. After the last 6 games, I really do believe this year is shot.....but we can attempt to get a handle on whether some players have a future in Boston or not. I know I'm in the minority about Craig, but he deserves one more chance. I think Bradley has little or nothing to gain from staying in Pawtucket. This team has no real chemistry and probably does need to be blown up (once again), but lets try a few things and see if we can solve some of the problems internally. |
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 15, 2015 8:44:47 GMT -5
Well since I'm on a roll.....let me make a point about DEFENSE.
At one time, I was a very successful varsity basketball coach in New Jersey (6 straight championships), I learned very early that in basketball as in other sports you need to RELY on what you can count on night after night. We all love offense (damn I love watching Steph Curry), but it comes and goes. On the road you would run into rims that were too rigid or too giving. You would have glass back-boards and wood (etc.). Even the bounce of the ball was dictated by the playing surface. But even at home a key player would have an off-night.
So, as much as I love watching Golden State play, they didn't get to the finals until they decided to play defense every night.
I couldn't make anything totally constant in basketball when I coached, but I could pretty much rely on 3 things. And it was these 3 things that I put a majority of my time into to get a team ready for a season. Those 3 things were: 1) rebound like an animal; 2) hit your free-throws, and 3) play aggressive man-to-man defense as a team.
Now only one of those is completely applicable to the game of baseball, but as the Royals showed last year.......defense....really good defense allows a team to minimize some other faults and keeps you in a game. Offense comes and goes. A team built on playing the game right and error-free has a much better chance of competing every night.
So what should any team be trying to build around to be in a game every night? Defense, base-running, knowing what the situation is at all times, and hustling your butt off. None of those points define one Hanley Ramirez. Start there! Change that! Bring up Bradley. Minimize poor defense and it will help our pitching considerably.
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danr
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Post by danr on Jun 15, 2015 9:10:02 GMT -5
Are there any restrictions on trading a player who was just signed as a free agent? Could Hanley, Sandoval, Miley or Porcello be traded this season? For some reason I have been under the impression that there is some kind of restriction, maybe just a time restriction.
If they can be traded, then maybe we should be talking about a huge overhaul of the team, not just a couple of tweaks. Maybe trades of a number of the significant players, completely altering the lineup and the pitching staff. I don't have any specific ideas and if I did I would put them in the trade forum. Right now I am just throwing out the idea for a complete blow up of this team.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 15, 2015 9:18:45 GMT -5
Are there any restrictions on trading a player who was just signed as a free agent? Could Hanley, Sandoval, Miley or Porcello be traded this season? For some reason I have been under the impression that there is some kind of restriction, maybe just a time restriction. If they can be traded, then maybe we should be talking about a huge overhaul of the team, not just a couple of tweaks. Maybe trades of a number of the significant players, completely altering the lineup and the pitching staff. I don't have any specific ideas and if I did I would put them in the trade forum. Right now I am just throwing out the idea for a complete blow up of this team. I would be shocked if any were traded. It would be like admitting a mistake for BC, and could put himself in jeopardy. Also, why sell low on all four? |
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Post by kman22 on Jun 15, 2015 9:25:00 GMT -5
Are there any restrictions on trading a player who was just signed as a free agent? Could Hanley, Sandoval, Miley or Porcello be traded this season? For some reason I have been under the impression that there is some kind of restriction, maybe just a time restriction. If they can be traded, then maybe we should be talking about a huge overhaul of the team, not just a couple of tweaks. Maybe trades of a number of the significant players, completely altering the lineup and the pitching staff. I don't have any specific ideas and if I did I would put them in the trade forum. Right now I am just throwing out the idea for a complete blow up of this team. 6 months I believe is the rule, otherwise they have the right to veto the trade. |
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Post by kman22 on Jun 15, 2015 9:26:03 GMT -5
But Porcello and Miley were traded for this winter, so that might be different than a free agent signing.
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Post by jmei on Jun 15, 2015 9:32:10 GMT -5
It's less about being unwilling to admit a mistake and more about the best way to salvage things going forward. I think it's unlikely any team is going to want to acquire Sandoval or Ramirez without the Red Sox eating a big chunk of their contract, and while you want to be cognizant of sunk costs, you also don't want to sell low. It's hard to believe that Sandoval and Ramirez could have their perceived values drop any lower than they are now, so you might as well hold onto them and wait for the inevitable rebound.
For the most part, the core of this team is fairly settled. There might be ways to be creative (e.g., the Punto trade or what the Padres did this past offseason), but more likely than not, their roster next year will look a lot like the roster this year.
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danr
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Post by danr on Jun 15, 2015 9:39:09 GMT -5
I am not saying that all the new players should be traded, but that maybe some should, and which ones would depend on what deals could be done. But I don't think the Sox would be selling low. Other teams know the problems the Sox are having with defense and with injuries which are major contributors to the poor performance.
There have been a number of posters who have said there isn't much that can be done. I don't believe that is true. There is tremendous competition among many teams this season for the post season. Many of those teams will have needs that some of the Sox players might fill. Some teams will be willing to take chances, especially if the Sox sweeten the deals by paying some of the salaries.
The only players I would try hard not to trade are Pedroia, Swihart, Betts, Bogaerts and Rodriguez, but to me, only Pedroia and maybe Rodriguez truly are untouchable.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 15, 2015 9:46:50 GMT -5
Hanley can't play LF, but he'd make a great DH. He's got a spot in our team for a long time.
Sandoval is another story. He's overpaid and doesn't have the bat for positional flexibility. But the FA market for 3B is horrible next year, and I wouldn't expect Moncada or Devers to be ready to play 3B until 2017 at the earliest, so selling low on Sandoval goes from ill-advised to completely detrimental right there.
We're not going to trade either of them.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 15, 2015 9:50:17 GMT -5
Hanley can't play LF, but he'd make a great DH. He's got a spot in our team for a long time. Sandoval is another story. He's overpaid and doesn't have the bat for positional flexibility. But the FA market for 3B is horrible next year, and I wouldn't expect Moncada or Devers to be ready to play 3B until 2017 at the earliest, so selling low on Sandoval goes from ill-advised to completely detrimental right there. We're not going to trade either of them. Moncada and Devers are in Low-A. They need 2+ years after this year. 2018 at the earliest. No sense in wasting a rookie contract on someone who isn't ready. It's throwing away a cost-controlled year. Something we're doing with regularity. |
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 15, 2015 9:55:40 GMT -5
Hanley can't play LF, but he'd make a great DH. He's got a spot in our team for a long time. Sandoval is another story. He's overpaid and doesn't have the bat for positional flexibility. But the FA market for 3B is horrible next year, and I wouldn't expect Moncada or Devers to be ready to play 3B until 2017 at the earliest, so selling low on Sandoval goes from ill-advised to completely detrimental right there. We're not going to trade either of them. Moncada and Devers are in Low-A. They need 2+ years after this year. 2018 at the earliest. No sense in wasting a rookie contract on someone who isn't ready. It's throwing away a cost-controlled year. Something we're doing with regularity. Agreed. |
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danr
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Post by danr on Jun 15, 2015 10:08:04 GMT -5
I am being the devil's advocate here, not sure, as I said when I started this, that this is what should be done. But in my experience when things really are bad (and I have a fair amount of experience with things going really bad), minor changes seldom help.
There really are two options, ride it out and gamble that things will improve, or bite the bullet and make radical changes, also gambling that things then will improve.
When you are deeply invested, or committed to something, or if that something is iconic, that second option is very hard to do.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 15, 2015 10:30:48 GMT -5
I am being the devil's advocate here, not sure, as I said when I started this, that this is what should be done. But in my experience when things really are bad (and I have a fair amount of experience with things going really bad), minor changes seldom help. There really are two options, ride it out and gamble that things will improve, or bite the bullet and make radical changes, also gambling that things then will improve. When you are deeply invested, or committed to something, or if that something is iconic, that second option is very hard to do. You are right danr. There is no real 3rd option at this time. I'd like to see them try a few things, but in reality this team really does not seem to have it. Cherington has got to be thinking about jumping in the bay. I thought he actually made some out-of-the-box moves that had the potential to be brilliant, and none of them have panned out. After this week, riding it out doesn't appeal to me. Other than Brian Johnson and maybe later a Pat Light, there is little to consider other than Jackie Bradley. I can see when one of those golden starters we have has a poor start, we need to see what Johnson can do. But, if nothing improves over the next 3 weeks, move the vets like Nap and Koji for some pieces that may be useful in 2016. |
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Jun 15, 2015 11:22:55 GMT -5
notes on "moving vets":
De Aza is FA, which is why Nava is still a better option going forward
Breslow. a moving vet. only pitched once thus far in June.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jun 15, 2015 11:23:01 GMT -5
Dave Cameron at Fangraphs is laying it out to move Ramirez already and noticed earlier over at WEeI that Bradford is blaming Ramirez mostly for the failures of the current team: Fangraphs SoxWhilt thing they are looking for mostly a scapegoat, especially Bradford. Both seem to be leaving out Sandoval who isn't hitting, nor is fielding better than an even close to average third baseman all the while raking in as much cash as is Ramirez with his lackadaisical play at 3b. There is more than enough blame to go around several people on this team, including it's manager who needs bullpen management 101 lessons. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 15, 2015 11:35:24 GMT -5
Some thoughts:
1) Firing Farrell right now doesn't solve anything - no manager is going to come in and right this ship. The players aren't playing well. If they decide in the offseason they need someone new to come in and run the show, then fine, but changing the manager isn't going to suddenly make Ramirez, Sandoval, Ortiz, etc. better.
2) There aren't assets to trade off, for those who are hoping for a fire sale. I'm not sure what they'd get for Napoli, but it wouldn't be much. And there is NO way they're trading Ortiz. Even if he didn't have 10/5 rights, that's the one time they wouldn't take the PR hit.
3) I can't see another Punto trade. There's no Adrian Gonzalez who will make taking on other unsavory contracts palatable in this case. The Punto trade was a one-in-a-million opportunity where a number of factors came together - the Dodgers suddenly being able to take on a ton of salary, both sides seeing the opportunity, the players lining up to make it work. The Gonzalez in this deal would need to be something like trading the likes of a Betts, Bogaerts, and/or Swihart, and I think we can all agree that's not happening (nor worth it).
To me, the club's just going to have to wear it for the time being and figure out what players will be on this club going forward and how best to deploy their various assets, both in the majors and minors.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 15, 2015 11:40:50 GMT -5
We're headed into bumpy waters. Need to ride this one out. Might have to toss a few deck-chairs to keep this puppy afloat. I'm thinking Buchholz and Koji. Can add a lesser prospect if we're getting a good return. Or, giving them Victorino if he's healthy or Napoli if he straightens it out a little. With us eating all of the money.
Someone might even want a guy like Miley. We basically have his replacement in AAA don't we? Brian Johnson.
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Post by jmei on Jun 15, 2015 12:13:10 GMT -5
There's not going to be another Punto deal, but I could see a bad contract swap. I'll think about it some and post some ideas in the trade proposal subforum.
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Post by justinp123 on Jun 15, 2015 12:21:01 GMT -5
I think Ramirez and Pablo will get going soon. I don't see the Redsox making the playoffs, but i do see them making a push. I just don't believe they will suck this bad for the entire season. The bats seem to be coming alive as of late and the pitching has been pretty good for the most part lately. We will probably just have to hope for some momentum going into next season with the players that we already have and hope the young guys take the next step in their developments.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Jun 15, 2015 12:28:40 GMT -5
Things aren't as bleak as they feel at the moment, at least from a future perspective. Xander is by far the biggest positive to come out of the first half of this season, and I've seen enough to think Mookie and Swihart are legitimate starters at their respective positions (and they have the upside to be much more than that).
Having the SS, catcher and CF positions locked up for the next 3-5 years means the cupboard isn't close to bare. Then you have Rusney, E-Rod and Barnes, who have all showed some promise.
Their veterans are a completely different story. They need to cut ties with as much dead weight as possible this offseason (Napoli, Clay, etc. Clay's been a solid pitcher this year, but it seems like the time to move on.). They won't be able to do much with Ortiz, Hanley, or Panda, but if those young guys take leaps next season, you can get by with the inconsistencies of the older players.
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Post by GyIantosca on Jun 15, 2015 13:01:27 GMT -5
The best thing with Clay is he continues to pitch good and move him at deadline. He is worth it to another team he has two option years . How good is that he is pitching for his bacon this and next year. I don't want the Sox to bring him back. His money and Masterson equals an excellent pitcher.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jun 15, 2015 13:05:31 GMT -5
I'm with you there Chris. Nobody is going to take either deal anyway and really? Can anyone expect Sandoval to get any worse? He's got to improve.
It *IS* time to let it ride out the season however, meaning no big moves in order to salvage what has happened, unless this team manages to right it's ship. Then over the winter? Napoli, Victorino, Masterson, Breslow, Mujica, either leave, or are already gone (Mujica) freeing 45m for a possible starter and maybe a 1st baseman?
Bucholz's option isn't that bad, if he maintains his performance since end of April. last 4 starts previous to 6/7 were 7+IP and rock solid. That's hard to find for 13m
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 15, 2015 13:40:27 GMT -5
Dave Cameron at Fangraphs is laying it out to move Ramirez already and noticed earlier over at WEeI that Bradford is blaming Ramirez mostly for the failures of the current team: Fangraphs SoxThe most interesting thing about that article is probably that Eric Van has given up on rational discourse in this forum to the point that he is now trying to engage people in the FanGraphs comments section instead.  The main point, that the Sox have saddled themselves with 2 players who are only fit to play DH, is bleedingly obvious. Solutions to this problem seem scarce. Honestly, if I were them, I would come to the conclusion that the only thing to do is say "David, here's your $15 million, and it's up to you - we can either have a really, really nice retirement ceremony at Fenway, or we can designate you for assignment." Of course they'll have to find a better way to say it than I could come up with, but that's one of the reasons I'm not a GM. |
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