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2015-2016 Boston Celtics Season Thread
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 12, 2016 11:27:44 GMT -5
I like the idea of this trade for the sole reason I don't think there will be anything better. Dwight had a rough couple of years with the Lakers saga and the awful basketball his team plays in Houston (everyone pretend to move around while Harden drives and gets to the FT line 20000 times). I think he is salvable, he doesn't scream chemistry spoiler to me. That Rockets team have a LOT of dysfunctional pieces besides him.
Talent-wise, I don't think anyone better is hitting the market. And while this move doesn't put the C's ahead of the Cavs, it brings them closer. Combine that core of Bradley, Thomas, Crowder, Howard and all the other role players with the Nets pick and yabadabadoo.
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Post by jmei on Feb 12, 2016 12:17:20 GMT -5
Also remember that it often takes a star or two in place to attract additional stars, and having Howard on the roster might make the Celtics a more attractive free agent or disgruntled star trade destination for a possible second trade at the deadline or over the offseason. Even if they don't ultimately beat the Cavs this year, if they go to a seven-game series with them and enter the offseason with max cap space and additional draft picks they're willing to deal, they'd be in prime position to get a guy like Horford or Melo or Hayward.
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Post by texs31 on Feb 12, 2016 14:25:07 GMT -5
But is he a) the type of star that will attract others and b) the guy you pay a max contract to?
I go back and forth on the answers.
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Post by jmei on Feb 12, 2016 14:37:01 GMT -5
a) I think so. He doesn't have the best reputation in the league, but star perimeter players love playing with a rim protector/rebounding big man, and Howard is still one of the better of those in the league.
b) Fair question, but if the cap continues to rise, he might be even in his 30s.
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Post by philarhody on Feb 12, 2016 17:08:07 GMT -5
Longshot, but if the Hawks decide to blow things up and trade Korver and Teague in addition to Horford, would they say no to the 2016 Brooklyn and Boston picks, David Lee and Amir Johnson for Millsap?
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Post by texs31 on Feb 13, 2016 8:54:28 GMT -5
Boston, New York and Cleveland supposedly talking a 3 - way putting Love on Boston and Melo on Cleveland.
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Post by jmei on Feb 13, 2016 9:29:48 GMT -5
If they can get Love and Howard without giving up any of their core rotation players (Thomas, Crowder, Smart, maybe Bradley and Olynyk) and while retaining at least one of the Nets picks, I think that's worth doing.
Love, in particular, is just 27 and signed to a reasonable long-term deal, and I think he can still be an offensive fulcrum if you surround him with the right players, most of which Boston has in place-- a secondary creator (Thomas) and defender/shooter wings (Crowder, Bradley, Smart, etc). They'd also need a defensive big man, which is where Howard comes in, but maybe they could get away with Amir Johnson.
ADD: the problem, of course, with a two-way trade between Boston and Cleveland for Love is that Cleveland will want win-now assets and Boston doesn't want to give them up. Thus the three-team proposals.
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 13, 2016 12:01:18 GMT -5
Oh God please no Kevin Love. I know that he's having a down year and is a prime buy low guy, but he can't play defense to save his life and that's the C's strength. Resist the urge Ainge.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Feb 13, 2016 12:53:48 GMT -5
Oh God please no Kevin Love. I know that he's having a down year and is a prime buy low guy, but he can't play defense to save his life and that's the C's strength. Resist the urge Ainge. I hear this a lot but I really don't think he's the atrocious defender you're making him out to be. He's meh... A little below average. But when you are putting him on the floor with guys like Smart, Bradley, Crowder, and Johnson (or Howard), I think he's a perfect fit. His defensive weaknesses will be masked by strong perimeter D and his offense is a perfect fit. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 13, 2016 13:41:35 GMT -5
I hear this a lot but I really don't think he's the atrocious defender you're making him out to be. He's meh... A little below average. But when you are putting him on the floor with guys like Smart, Bradley, Crowder, and Johnson (or Howard), I think he's a perfect fit. His defensive weaknesses will be masked by strong perimeter D and his offense is a perfect fit. I hear you. In defense of Love, it's not that he doesn't even try like James Harden or something. And he was poorly used in the Cavs right from the start. Maybe with a change of scenery he could do well. He could also be a weak link that crumbles a solid D, but if anyone can keep him from being that it's Brad Stevens. I've warmed up to the idea of trading for Love now that I think about it. Provided Ainge doesn't give up the Nets pick, of course. If the Nets pick is the price, I stand by my "Oh God please no" comment (: |
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Post by chavopepe2 on Feb 13, 2016 13:51:11 GMT -5
I hear this a lot but I really don't think he's the atrocious defender you're making him out to be. He's meh... A little below average. But when you are putting him on the floor with guys like Smart, Bradley, Crowder, and Johnson (or Howard), I think he's a perfect fit. His defensive weaknesses will be masked by strong perimeter D and his offense is a perfect fit. I hear you. In defense of Love, it's not that he doesn't even try like James Harden or something. And he was poorly used in the Cavs right from the start. Maybe with a change of scenery he could do well. He could also be a weak link that crumbles a solid D, but if anyone can keep him from being that it's Brad Stevens. I've warmed up to the idea of trading for Love now that I think about it. Provided Ainge doesn't give up the Nets pick, of course. If the Nets pick is the price, I stand by my "Oh God please no" comment (: I'm very, very torn on whether I'd give the nets pick. If I knew the pick was 1 or 2 I wouldn't do it. But if it's 3+ I almost certainly would. That is a tough gamble to make. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 13, 2016 14:24:22 GMT -5
For Love? I wouldn't do that. I realize this is not a popular opinion around here, but I'd trade the Nets pick for DeMarcus Cousins. I know, he's a headcase but he's been dealt a tough hand ever since he came into the NBA. He's insanely talented and still just 25 years old. He could be special once he escapes that radioactive waste dump fire of a team.
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Post by philarhody on Feb 13, 2016 15:26:23 GMT -5
For Love? I wouldn't do that. I realize this is not a popular opinion around here, but I'd trade the Nets pick for DeMarcus Cousins. I know, he's a headcase but he's been dealt a tough hand ever since he came into the NBA. He's insanely talented and still just 25 years old. He could be special once he escapes that radioactive waste dump fire of a team. I don't think there's any question that Cousins is the superior talent Love or Harden or nearly every other star. The question is, why would Sacramento trade the best center in basketball? As an aside, advanced statistics show Love to be a pretty decent defender in the same vein as Sullinger or Olynyk. He's smart enough to get by. And there's currently a a lack of frontcourt scoring talent in the East, so he wouldn't be guarding Blake Griffin, Draymond Green or Lamarcus Aldridge come playoff time anywag. My bigger concern with Love is that he's a sulking baby. My concern with Harden is that he's just so unmotivated on defense. If Boston acquired Harden (which they should if he's the only star available), i'd want to see him play 30 minutes off the bench and just punish 2nd units and rack up all kinds of assists throwing cross court bullets to Olynyk and Jerebko. Just have Danny and Brad sit him down and say "James we didn't acquire you to be the face of the franchise; we want you to be Manu Ginobili+ and make every minute count." |
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Post by chavopepe2 on Feb 13, 2016 15:42:35 GMT -5
The difference between Love and Cousins/Harden is the downside risk. This is a really good team as is and the latter two run the risk of making them worse by hurting the chemistry, camaraderie, and flow of the team. I don't see that downside risk with Love. He almost certainly makes the team better and potentially quite a bit better.
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 13, 2016 16:19:40 GMT -5
I think Love is every bit as sulky as Harden and Cousins, the main difference being that Boogie never had the chance of playing at a good team. I'm not sure why Sacramento would trade him ever, but he'd be my preferred target if the C's do make a move.
I'm also not a fan of Harden at all.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 14, 2016 14:21:29 GMT -5
In a post on The Vertical, Bobby Marks suggested a David Lee, Jonas Jerebko and the 2 non-Brooklyn picks this year for Dwight Howard and Montrezl Harrell (and explains why it would make sense). I'm no big fan of Howards but, at some point, the value would make a lot of sense. Jerebko has been fine at the back end of the rotation but Howard would HAVE to give them more. I think Harrell would actually offset one of the 1st rounders that they'd be giving up. If Howard walks away at the end of the year (or you don't want to pay him), you've really only "lost" Jerebko ' s non-guaranteed money for next year and 1 1st rounder. Marks suggestion is that Howards market isn't very strong and 2 1st rounders might be as good an outcome as they can expect. I make that trade in one second. Howard is exactly the type of player we need. Injuries are a risk, but he can still control the paint with his rebounding and D. Two late first are worth the risk for me |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 14, 2016 14:31:07 GMT -5
If they can get Love and Howard without giving up any of their core rotation players (Thomas, Crowder, Smart, maybe Bradley and Olynyk) and while retaining at least one of the Nets picks, I think that's worth doing. Love, in particular, is just 27 and signed to a reasonable long-term deal, and I think he can still be an offensive fulcrum if you surround him with the right players, most of which Boston has in place-- a secondary creator (Thomas) and defender/shooter wings (Crowder, Bradley, Smart, etc). They'd also need a defensive big man, which is where Howard comes in, but maybe they could get away with Amir Johnson. ADD: the problem, of course, with a two-way trade between Boston and Cleveland for Love is that Cleveland will want win-now assets and Boston doesn't want to give them up. Thus the three-team proposals. No brainer all the way. Just don't get Cleveland trading Love for Melo. It makes zero sense, so I have to think this is just someone's idea and not a real rumor. They need players like Crowder not Melo, team first guys. They already have two type A scorers, they don't need a third one |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 14, 2016 14:38:46 GMT -5
For Love? I wouldn't do that. I realize this is not a popular opinion around here, but I'd trade the Nets pick for DeMarcus Cousins. I know, he's a headcase but he's been dealt a tough hand ever since he came into the NBA. He's insanely talented and still just 25 years old. He could be special once he escapes that radioactive waste dump fire of a team. If you can get Love you have to give up the Nets pick this year. Cousins is a pipe dream. Did you ever think that maybe just maybe Cousins is part of the problem for the Kings? I think George Karl is a very good coach and he seems to think he can't win with Cousins, that's very telling to me. Cousins doesn't make players around him better. He puts up crazy good stats, but it never leads his teams to success. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 14, 2016 15:29:56 GMT -5
Maybe Cousins is part of what's wrong with the Kings, but I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. The owner of the team is batsh*t crazy, the management is a joke, Karl is a great coach but he's in a tough spot and the level of talent on the roster through DMC career has been atrocious. I even think he has been slowly maturing as a person. I like him way better than Love, who was also notorious for putting up crazy stats and not leading his team to any success.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 16, 2016 3:07:34 GMT -5
Fair points. I just think the Kings have talent this year and the West is weak for the first time in years. With a good coach and more talent then they have ever had in Cousins time with the team, they have been very bad this year. Also reports of Cousins not getting along with his coach and playing team ball have not stopped this year. If cousins can't respect George Karl is he going to respect and respond to any coach?
Go back and look at Loves Minny teams, Kevin Martin was the second best player he ever played with. He never had a Gay and Rondo combo and a bench with some good players. Sure most years they both had roster with a bunch of young players. The difference is the Kings added a bunch of veteran players this offseason to make a run, something Love was never given.
Talent wise Cousins is way better then Love, but Love is a great team guy that will do whats needed for his team to win. If you put Love on Kings I have no doubt they are a playoff team in the West this year. Love plays team ball and makes players around him better, Cousins has yet to show he can do that.
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Post by jmei on Feb 16, 2016 7:59:26 GMT -5
I don't know that Gay and Rondo are any better of a supporting cast than Love had. Those two are the leading "good stats, don't actually help you team win" guys, especially Rondo (who gets a lot of assists but gives back a lot of that value on defense and his inability to stretch the floor).
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Feb 16, 2016 9:13:26 GMT -5
I would be happy with buying low on Ben Mclemore. Everyone who leaves the Kings seems to get better and he has quite a bit of potential as a shooter and slasher.
I have a feeling a bigger move is coming though.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 16, 2016 10:09:57 GMT -5
I don't know that Gay and Rondo are any better of a supporting cast than Love had. Those two are the leading "good stats, don't actually help you team win" guys, especially Rondo (who gets a lot of assists but gives back a lot of that value on defense and his inability to stretch the floor). I would take Gay over Martin any day of the week. I have to strongly disagree that Rondo isn't a help your team win guy. He is having a great year for them, shooting 36% from 3 point range on over 2 attempts per game and he has his best steal rate in 4 years. I mean Rondo was a help us win guy for every year but his last. He helped us win one title and almost a second one. Rondo has a plus/minus of 1.2, with 1.0 on offense and .2 of D. So I don't think he is giving a lot of value back on D. |
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Post by philarhody on Feb 16, 2016 10:39:11 GMT -5
You can rest assured if Kevin Love was ok doing whatever was needed to help his team win he wouldn't be mentioned as a midseason trade candidate despite being a 30+ minute player on a contender.
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Post by jmei on Feb 16, 2016 12:30:04 GMT -5
I don't know that Gay and Rondo are any better of a supporting cast than Love had. Those two are the leading "good stats, don't actually help you team win" guys, especially Rondo (who gets a lot of assists but gives back a lot of that value on defense and his inability to stretch the floor). I would take Gay over Martin any day of the week. I have to strongly disagree that Rondo isn't a help your team win guy. He is having a great year for them, shooting 36% from 3 point range on over 2 attempts per game and he has his best steal rate in 4 years. I mean Rondo was a help us win guy for every year but his last. He helped us win one title and almost a second one. Rondo has a plus/minus of 1.2, with 1.0 on offense and .2 of D. So I don't think he is giving a lot of value back on D. Rondo's real plus-minus this year is 0.27, which is 22nd in the league among point guards (sandwiched between Michael Carter-Williams and Patrick Beverley). You can't look at his raw plus-minus because he plays so much with Cousins (who has the second-best RPM among centers in the league); once you adjust for the lineups he plays in, Rondo starts to look not very good. |
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