Boston Celtics 2016-17 Season Discussion

FWIW,

I can't find the source, so I understand the value placed on it, but there was commentary by an "insider" that around the league, Bradley was considered to have the most value of any Celtics player. Of course, that was almost a month ago, before IT added to his legendary status. But still, gotta believe you should be able to get more for AB (depending on when you trade him) then Kosta Koufos.

I'd also add that this defensive statistics (and, therefore, win shares and/or PER) are going to be impacted by the team performance as well (and, yes, playing next to IT). I think those in the know give him more credit for his defense than his statistics would let on.

If I'm Philly, Smart isn't the right option (I guess in lieu of nothing, sure). If there plan is to have Simmons as their Point Forward (or big point guard, or whatever), I would think they'd want shooters/defenders on the floor. Sure, Smart is the latter but definitely not the former. For them, hitting in the lottery and getting Fultz (who can shoot and be a secondary ball handler) and, say Malik Monk could be huge.

I saw an interesting non-Celtic proposal (unlikely but made so much sense). The basics were Noel and unprotected 2017 pick for C.J. McCollum (the 2017 picking having less value since, you'd think, the addition of CJM (and Simmons) would move them out of the top 5 heading into the lottery. There would be some other things that had to be dealt with given the challenges of trading a player who just signed an extension off of his rookie deal but the article said Philly could make it happen.

Doesn't help our situation, obviously, but I DO think THAT is the type of guard Philly needs (and then they could pair him up with a defender at the other guard position). Not Smart as much (who, outside of his defensive contributions, really does much better with the ball in his hands).

Sorry was not trying to say Smart is better than Bradley. But the team may be better off trading one of Bradley or IT and I think Thomas is too good offensively to do that. I understand defensive numbers and PER aren't the end all and be all but we make reference to things in short posts to make a point. Bradley and Thomas together on the court is a defensive liability. Bradley isn't a great one on one defender and never truly has been. His overall defense had slipped but his 6'3 small frame doesn't match well with our 5'9 guy. However, Smart and Fultz can both guard multiple spots. Combined with Bradleys trade value I think dealing him makes the most sense.

Koufos was brought up because he's signed for multiple more years at low dollars and fits a need on the team. He could really flourish in his role under Stevens. Trades in the NBA are tricky. Bradley will be on a 8m expiring contract... what do you expect to get for him?

I'm talking about after he draft btw not now. I wouldn't trade for Noel now unless it's incredibly cheap. Sure it would be nice to see how he fits but not that nice that you give up too much for him. I'd basically swap Rosier for him and that won't get it done.

It definitely wasn't a rumor. It was a suggestion based on the following:

1. Portland went all in on this team and they are NOT good. Dame and CJM are horrible, defensively, together (their assertion, not mine).
2. They have little to no flexibility to improve
3. ET's benefit as a ball handler is not handling the ball (which is where his value comes from) with the 1 of the Dame/CJM being in the lineup most times.

Because it wasn't a rumor, I didn't bother to come up with an equal trade. Just referenced the highlights to get the point across.

Point is, you can have 2 young 20+ scorers signed long term but if it isn't working (and with few options to fix it) you need to explore other options. That's all.

Sure Fultz could be better, but chances Philly pick is high enough to get him are very slim at this point.  Chances are that pick is around #5.  The point is Portland isn't rebuilding so you don't trade a guy that's close to his prime years playing at a high level, that's signed long-term, for a chance to get a better player.  A player that could take years to develop and then bolt town if he turns into a star.

CJM is averaging 23.7 points, 3.6 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 1 steal and .6 blocks a game, while shooting well over 40% from deep.  Sure he's not great at D, but he's young and keeps getting better.  Raised PER from 17.7 last year to 21 this year.  In my book he's a top 30-40 player, that keeps getting better.  An elite shooter at a time where shooting is very important.

I take it your talking about Corey Maggette?  He was a good player, I think CJM is better.  He's forced to play SG, when he'd be better at defending PGs.  Players can improve D, a lot of time it's just about effort.  Remember Pierce?  He didn't become a great defender until the big three got to town.

I said this way back when the C's put the big 3 together and I will say it again now when people were questioning their ability to play D. Defense is about desire, especially for guards and wings. If they have the athleticism to be in the NBA they have the ability to play D. That may not be totally true about bigs as they have to have more instincts in protecting the rim and blocking or altering shots. The thing is with many stars who are expected to score they are putting forth more effort on the offensive end and don't have the focus and energy to do it on both ends. Often also because it is not and has not been demanded of them ever, they have always been scorers at every level. Allen and Pierce both became better defensive players when they were all put together and played a more balanced offensive game sharing the ball.
Brad Stevens I believe will always demand a high level of defensive pressure so it is a very good environment for young stars to develop with veterans who play that way in the system. It does make me wonder about this years C's not playing great D, are there injuries that are hampering players athleticism. Like Crowder who has not been the same this year and has had ankle issues. When it comes to IT he has both his height and the expectations on the offensive end keeping him from being an elite defensive player. Which leads me to the belief that a few years down the road a guard tandem of Smart and Fultz could be very good, with a little luck of course.
Once again I will state what should be obvious by now. Developing 19 year olds into NBA stars takes time, just take a look at Minnesota. They have some great young players who are going to be stars but at the moment don't know how to win yet. The C's are pretty good and should be for a while but the really good team that we are all hoping for could be years down the road unless Danny can get lucky. And as has been said before, the new CBA is going to make that difficult. Does anybody know the ramifications of trading for Cousins now that he has signed the big deal?

I agree that for a lot of players defense is about desire but some are just dumb and incapable of being good defenders. Kyrie Ivring is this type of player imo... he's a bad defender but very capable and you see him step it up when he feels he needs to.

I'm not married to Koufos just used him as an example of a player type and someone who could fit both scheme and salary.

Team building is tricky so if you add a guy like Fultz another guard had to go and it's better to get something than lose them for nothing. Koufos is less valuable than Bradley but he may be more valuable for the Celtics at that point if they have Bradley, IT, Smart, Rosier and Fultz.... it's not easy to make trades that work so a trade like that would be more a decision that "we aren't going to pay Bradley because we are going to pay the other guys so let's trade the asset rather than lose him for nothing".

Anyways, let's not focus on Koufos it's more about the overall strategy than anything else.

I agree Smart will never shoot as well as Bradley but he doesn't need to. He's better with the ball in his hands but he'd be the 3rd guard and his ball handling would be valuable. Plus, he's really developing into a solid corner 3 guy and he's really developing a great driving game. He's not a finished product but where was Bradleys game at Smarts age?

Sorry for all the posts but I'm sitting in a hospital waiting area....

I just wanted to throw a shout out to Isaiah Thomas... my god that guy is a stud.... if his shooting from deep this year is the new norm, the guy is going to have a nice run here as a top scorer in this league.

 Stupidity aside you make my point at the end of your post when you say "you see him step it up when he feels he needs to."
 If your a great NBA type athlete you can play D, you just need to want to and be coached to.

Your going to have to give both new contracts after next season.  So what each player will sign for has to come into play.  Also you keep assuming we get Fultz which is a flawed logic at this point.  Chances we get #1 pick is slim and even if we do, it's way to early to say he's the top player.  Chad Ford has said more teams have Fultz at #1, but a bunch of teams have other players.  So if we are going to talk long-term team building we really need to know where we pick first.

Also even if we get Fultz you seem to be penciling him into starting role right away.  For me I keep Bradley and Thomas as starters and Fultz becomes my #3.  Hence why I think Smart is the one to be traded if we get Fultz.  Long-term you can switch Fultz with Thomas.  I've always said I see Thomas as a super 6 man long-term on a true title contender due to his D.

As to the comparing Bradley to Smart at same age.  It's really not the same, as Smart has had a lot more playing time.  Smart played two years of College, to Bradley one.  Smart has played big minutes for 2 1/2 years,  3 years at year end, at 22 Bradley was just getting his first chance at big minutes.  At 21 in limited minutes Bradley showed he could hit the 3 and his pull up jumper.  That was his calling card, good D, can shoot 3 ball and pull up jumper.  These are the things he showed at College.  There was also Doc's comments that Bradley was hitting the 3 ball all the time in practice.

Smart on the other hand, has yet to show the skill that had me excited when we drafted him.  His ability to drive to lane and get to line at a very high rate.  I know when we drafted him, the worry was that he wouldn't be able to bull pro players around like he did in College.  So far that seems to be true, I just don't understand why.  As far as guards go he's still huge compared to almost all guards.  Instead of driving to the lane like a bull all the time, he seems to have fallen in love with the 3 ball.  Unless you think he's going to become a 35% or better 3 point shooter, he needs to get back to what he did in College.  That's the only way I see him becoming a good offensive player.  He's young, so he sure can improve, but so far in 2 and half years he yet to get better at getting to line, hence why I'm not high on him right now.

He does have to make an all-NBA team! He is not a lock but he sure can do it!