SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Red Sox acquire Thornburg for Shaw, Dubon, Pennington
|
|
Post by brendan98 on Dec 6, 2016 13:11:25 GMT -5
If the 2016 Thornburg is the Thornburg the Sox are getting for the next 3 years, then I can't argue with this trade.
It is always difficult to know when to cut bait on a player, but I think there is a decent chance the Sox moved Shaw at a point when another team still looked at him as a starting 3B, and maybe he really isn't. Dubon profiles best as a utility player, and has value, but I'm okay with DD including him in this deal. Pennington is probably a reliever down the line, and has a long way to go, too much variance to predict his future.
|
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Dec 6, 2016 13:12:03 GMT -5
Dubon seems like he could've been a 3rd or 4th guy in a much bigger trade package for a much better player. This is always the go to, now if they trade for Sale I get to read about what they could have dealt instead if they never made any trades the last 13 months. |
|
|
|
Post by cotuitfan on Dec 6, 2016 13:16:45 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal @ken_Rosenthal
BREAKING: Sale to #RedSox. Moncada, Kopech and two other prospects to #WhiteSox.
TwitterToday at 1:11 PM
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,624
Member is Online
|
Post by nomar on Dec 6, 2016 13:19:50 GMT -5
Dubon is a bad fielder at SS. Says who? Scouting reports and FRAA. Good 2B not good SS. |
|
mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,049
|
Post by mobaz on Dec 6, 2016 13:28:22 GMT -5
Dubon seems like he could've been a 3rd or 4th guy in a much bigger trade package for a much better player. This is always the go to, now if they trade for Sale I get to read about what they could have dealt instead if they never made any trades the last 13 months. Except now it's true. What does Drew Pomeranz really give us now with Sale? "Saving" Neo for this trade, or doing a Sale trade at the deadline a MUCH better allocation of resources. |
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Dec 6, 2016 14:39:29 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 6, 2016 22:38:38 GMT -5
I certainly didn't mind losing Travis Shaw, but I do think Dubon has a shot at being more than a utility player. He would have been nice insurance to have around because he could step in and play SS if Bogaerts' defense declined. And I do like Pennington. I think he has a future.
That said, I very much liked the Tyler Thornburg acquisition. I honestly felt much better about this deal than the Chris Sale deal (also because a dominant reliever is a more glaring area of need, at least I thought), where the price looks and feels reasonable but could really, really be a huge price to pay down the road.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonyc on Dec 6, 2016 23:09:07 GMT -5
Like Thornburg, but the Sox did again give up depth. A key question is, assuming they lose Bogaerts to free agency, as it perhaps appears may occur, would Dubon potentially project as just a second baseman, or as a starter at shortstop?
|
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 6, 2016 23:12:34 GMT -5
That's hilarious. Go Pete Abe.. |
|
|
|
Post by thegoo13 on Dec 7, 2016 9:25:48 GMT -5
Theo turned Jorge Soler into Wade Davis. DD turned Travis Shaw, Mauricio Dubon and Josh Pennington into Tyler Thornburg. Soler, just because of his power potential, is worth more than Shaw even though Shaw has been the better MLB player so far. However is he worth more than all 3? Comes down to what the Royals were looking for and what the Brewers were looking for. However, I know this. There is not a huge difference between what the Sox gave up and the Cubs gave up but there is a HUGE difference between Wade Davis and Tyler Thornburg. Or at least there has been to date.
We have a great organization with the best owners we have ever had IMO, however we are worse off than we could be because they chased off Theo and Francona. DD is given cart blanche and is not as good of a GM as Theo or Cherington. JF is not even in the same class as TF as far as managers go.
Not a ton of faith DD is making great trades here despite his track record. It's early but his track record here is just not very good. Very sure JF will miss manage the AL East's best roster next summer.
|
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Dec 7, 2016 9:55:12 GMT -5
I haven't talked myself into this one totally, but one semi-notable point: Thornburg is younger than both Joe Kelly and Brandon Workman (but older than Chris Sale and Rick Porcello).
|
|
sarcasmo
Rookie
Formerly known as mtomeo
Posts: 91
|
Post by sarcasmo on Dec 7, 2016 10:39:46 GMT -5
Theo turned Jorge Soler into Wade Davis. DD turned Travis Shaw, Mauricio Dubon and Josh Pennington into Tyler Thornburg. Soler, just because of his power potential, is worth more than Shaw even though Shaw has been the better MLB player so far. However is he worth more than all 3? Comes down to what the Royals were looking for and what the Brewers were looking for. However, I know this. There is not a huge difference between what the Sox gave up and the Cubs gave up but there is a HUGE difference between Wade Davis and Tyler Thornburg. Or at least there has been to date. We have a great organization with the best owners we have ever had IMO, however we are worse off than we could be because they chased off Theo and Francona. DD is given cart blanche and is not as good of a GM as Theo or Cherington. JF is not even in the same class as TF as far as managers go. Not a ton of faith DD is making great trades here despite his track record. It's early but his track record here is just not very good. Very sure JF will miss manage the AL East's best roster next summer. Wade Davis is 31 and a FA next year. Thornburg is 28 and just hitting arb so we have 3 years of control. While Davis is [currently] a better pitcher, guys like Thornburg cost more. |
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 7, 2016 11:15:32 GMT -5
For me this is a risky trade that could go either way. Either we just bought low on a guy that turned the corner later in career like Miller or we just bought high on a guy that might have had a career year. It funny DD likes stars and proven guys most of time, but for second year in a row he's gambling on a young guy with only one great year. If Thornburg is anything like last year this should be a good deal.
The downside is we lose our 3B depth and a player I think was pushing Sandoval, he's now handed 3B and I hate that. I also really liked Doubon. If last year was for real we might regret this deal if Thornburg isn't close to an elite reliever.
DD the gambler is all in on a flush draw in my opinion. If he hits it, he'll win big, but he could also lose big.
With our 2 big trades, we have also now traded the two guys that were close to big leagues that could provide OF depth. On the other hand we might just have traded high on Shaw and Doubon.
|
|
|
|
Post by dmaineah on Dec 7, 2016 17:05:36 GMT -5
I doubt he makes it to May 1st without hitting the DL for the season. Terrible trade
|
|
|
|
Post by larrycook on Dec 7, 2016 22:13:19 GMT -5
Seems kind of weird to me that after trading for smith last year knowing he could need tommy John, we trade for a guy who hurt his elbow and instead of surgery, he took the plasma platelettes rich blood transfusions.
Could he and Pomeranz be tommy John victims next season?
|
|
|
|
Post by thegoo13 on Dec 8, 2016 9:41:18 GMT -5
Theo turned Jorge Soler into Wade Davis. DD turned Travis Shaw, Mauricio Dubon and Josh Pennington into Tyler Thornburg. Soler, just because of his power potential, is worth more than Shaw even though Shaw has been the better MLB player so far. However is he worth more than all 3? Comes down to what the Royals were looking for and what the Brewers were looking for. However, I know this. There is not a huge difference between what the Sox gave up and the Cubs gave up but there is a HUGE difference between Wade Davis and Tyler Thornburg. Or at least there has been to date. We have a great organization with the best owners we have ever had IMO, however we are worse off than we could be because they chased off Theo and Francona. DD is given cart blanche and is not as good of a GM as Theo or Cherington. JF is not even in the same class as TF as far as managers go. Not a ton of faith DD is making great trades here despite his track record. It's early but his track record here is just not very good. Very sure JF will miss manage the AL East's best roster next summer. Wade Davis is 31 and a FA next year. Thornburg is 28 and just hitting arb so we have 3 years of control. While Davis is [currently] a better pitcher, guys like Thornburg cost more. That really doesn't make sense and WEEI is now reporting that Boston tried for Davis before Thornburg. Royals wanted Soler and not Shaw. Davis makes way more sense for Boston with Sale trade. Because Davis is the much better pitcher and clearly this team is trying to win it all next year and the years to follow. He just gave a lot for Thornburg compared to what the Cubs gave for Davis. And again, Davis is the much better pitcher. |
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 8, 2016 9:52:40 GMT -5
Davis has declined quite a bit in the last two years. He's still quite good, but not the lights out guy he used to be. I'd worry that the decline may continue.
|
|
|
|
Post by thegoo13 on Dec 8, 2016 12:06:03 GMT -5
Davis has declined quite a bit in the last two years. He's still quite good, but not the lights out guy he used to be. I'd worry that the decline may continue. Really? Well his 2016 year of decline was still better than Thornburg's 2016 breakout year. He's only 31, not 36 and if you were to get 3 good years out of either, out of ANY relief pitcher you trade for, you have to consider that a win. I'll stick to my statement. Red Sox and Cubs packages were pretty equal. The guys they got back are not. I know i would WAY rather have Davis in the 8th next year than Thornburg. |
|
|
|
Post by soxfanatic on Dec 8, 2016 12:07:51 GMT -5
Davis has declined quite a bit in the last two years. He's still quite good, but not the lights out guy he used to be. I'd worry that the decline may continue. Really? Well his 2016 year of decline was still better than Thornburg's 2016 breakout year. He's only 31, not 36 and if you were to get 3 good years out of either, out of ANY relief pitcher you trade for, you have to consider that a win. I'll stick to my statement. Red Sox and Cubs packages were pretty equal. The guys they got back are not. I know i would WAY rather have Davis in the 8th next year than Thornburg. Two words: team control. |
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 8, 2016 12:12:29 GMT -5
Davis has declined quite a bit in the last two years. He's still quite good, but not the lights out guy he used to be. I'd worry that the decline may continue. Really? Well his 2016 year of decline was still better than Thornburg's 2016 breakout year. He's only 31, not 36 and if you were to get 3 good years out of either, out of ANY relief pitcher you trade for, you have to consider that a win. I'll stick to my statement. Red Sox and Cubs packages were pretty equal. The guys they got back are not. I know i would WAY rather have Davis in the 8th next year than Thornburg. Davis' SIERA for last 3 seasons has gone from 1.61 to 2.61 to 3.34. |
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Dec 8, 2016 12:28:30 GMT -5
Really? Well his 2016 year of decline was still better than Thornburg's 2016 breakout year. He's only 31, not 36 and if you were to get 3 good years out of either, out of ANY relief pitcher you trade for, you have to consider that a win. I'll stick to my statement. Red Sox and Cubs packages were pretty equal. The guys they got back are not. I know i would WAY rather have Davis in the 8th next year than Thornburg. Davis' SIERA for last 3 seasons has gone from 1.61 to 2.61 to 3.34. It sort of depends on whether his home run-suppressing excellence is a skill or luck. He's allowed three in 182 2/3 over the last three seasons. If it's a skill, his FIP the last three years goes 1.19. 2.29, 2.29. |
|
|
|
Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 8, 2016 12:45:11 GMT -5
Davis has declined quite a bit in the last two years. He's still quite good, but not the lights out guy he used to be. I'd worry that the decline may continue. Really? Well his 2016 year of decline was still better than Thornburg's 2016 breakout year. He's only 31, not 36 and if you were to get 3 good years out of either, out of ANY relief pitcher you trade for, you have to consider that a win. I'll stick to my statement. Red Sox and Cubs packages were pretty equal. The guys they got back are not. I know i would WAY rather have Davis in the 8th next year than Thornburg. 1. The Red Sox are trying to get under the luxury tax for 2017 and Davis would have made that near impossible as he will make 10mil next year. 2. You pointed out that the Red Sox have a three year window and Thornburg is under control for 3 years. Davis will be a FA after the season and given the contacts for closers, would be highly unlikely to re-sign. 3. Davis' peripherals have dropped each of the last two years and given his age of 31, is in the decline phase of his career. Thornburg is 28 and in his prime. 4. Davis is pitching through major injury concerns and is expected by many to require Tommy John surgery in the near future. Thornburg had a scare a couple of years ago with a UCL injury but has rebounded stronger than ever and appears to have a clean bill of health. If this was Wade Davis from 2-3 years ago then I would completely agree with you. But this isn't the same guy. |
|
|
|
Post by thegoo13 on Dec 8, 2016 17:00:08 GMT -5
Really? Well his 2016 year of decline was still better than Thornburg's 2016 breakout year. He's only 31, not 36 and if you were to get 3 good years out of either, out of ANY relief pitcher you trade for, you have to consider that a win. I'll stick to my statement. Red Sox and Cubs packages were pretty equal. The guys they got back are not. I know i would WAY rather have Davis in the 8th next year than Thornburg. 2. You pointed out that the Red Sox have a three year window and Thornburg is under control for 3 years. Davis will be a FA after the season and given the contacts for closers, would be highly unlikely to re-sign. 3. Davis' peripherals have dropped each of the last two years and given his age of 31, is in the decline phase of his career. Thornburg is 28 and in his prime. 4. Davis is pitching through major injury concerns and is expected by many to require Tommy John surgery in the near future. Thornburg had a scare a couple of years ago with a UCL injury but has rebounded stronger than ever and appears to have a clean bill of health. If this was Wade Davis from 2-3 years ago then I would completely agree with you. But this isn't the same guy. I see your first point but if the WEEI report is true then the Sox were trying to get him anyway and must have had a plan to make it work? I am just going to have to agree to disagree with several of you here. Just my opinion but to me it seems like as a group we sort of miss the forest through the trees sometimes. Or the obvious through the advanced metrics sometimes. Like a couple years ago when the peripheral numbers supported Joe Kelly was not a terrible starting pitcher even though he was and continued to be. In this case I again stick to my argument that Wade Davis is just FAR better than Tyler Thornburg and as the packages the Cubs and Sox gave up are pretty even the Sox got less value for ours than the Cubs did. |
|
|
|
Post by dmaineah on Mar 16, 2017 10:06:06 GMT -5
I doubt he makes it to May 1st without hitting the DL for the season. Terrible trade Well, I was mistaken. Looks like he doesn't make it through Spring Training or to Opening Day let alone May 1st. Only 1 1/3 innings pitched. Wow! Great trade Dave. |
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Mar 16, 2017 10:23:35 GMT -5
I doubt he makes it to May 1st without hitting the DL for the season. Terrible trade Well, I was mistaken. Looks like he doesn't make it through Spring Training or to Opening Day let alone May 1st. Only 1 1/3 innings pitched. Wow! Great trade Dave. They have 3 years of control for him. Let's wait until he actually on the DL before hurting yourself patting your own back. And even if he starts on the DL, they still have 3 years of control. It's not like he's never going to pitch again. |
|
|
