SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Red Sox acquire Thornburg for Shaw, Dubon, Pennington
|
Post by dmaineah on Mar 16, 2017 10:44:10 GMT -5
Well, I was mistaken. Looks like he doesn't make it through Spring Training or to Opening Day let alone May 1st. Only 1 1/3 innings pitched. Wow! Great trade Dave. They have 3 years of control for him. Let's wait until he actually on the DL before hurting yourself patting your own back. And even if he starts on the DL, they still have 3 years of control. It's not like he's never going to pitch again. You sure? I'm not
|
|
|
Post by thursty on Mar 16, 2017 11:02:39 GMT -5
Is there some breaking news regarding Thornburg that has prompted this? Haven't seen anything this morning online.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Mar 16, 2017 11:07:12 GMT -5
You're claiming to be correct because a pitcher has missed two weeks in spring training and bumping a thread for it. Let's bump the Bryce Brentz and Jackie Bradley threads too? No? Just that time you were right?
There were a lot of people who thought the Thornburg was risky or a bad value. But bumping the thread about it on March 16th to pat yourself on the back about a guy getting injured is a bad look.
|
|
|
Post by dmaineah on Mar 16, 2017 11:08:34 GMT -5
They have 3 years of control for him. Let's wait until he actually on the DL before hurting yourself patting your own back. And even if he starts on the DL, they still have 3 years of control. It's not like he's never going to pitch again. I think it is irresponsible for Red Sox president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski to trade three players, including one high-ranked prospect, for a reliever labeled as an "injury risk" just one year after trading for Carson Smith, who had the same label and broke down 2 2/3 innings into his 2016 season. (And remember, Dombrowski of course was criticized in Detroit for failing to build a strong enough bullpen to lead the Tigers to a World Series title.) And yes every pitcher comes with at least some injury risk. You want to argue that the good thing is Thornburg (and probably Smith as well) are under team control longterm. So the Red Sox can still get value out of both even if (more) injuries do happen. I want to argue that trading for relief pitchers with an injury history such as Thornburgs is bad management for a team considered to be a playoff contender
|
|
|
Post by dmaineah on Mar 16, 2017 11:12:48 GMT -5
You're claiming to be correct because a pitcher has missed two weeks in spring training and bumping a thread for it. Let's bump the Bryce Brentz and Jackie Bradley threads too? No? Just that time you were right? There were a lot of people who thought the Thornburg was risky or a bad value. But bumping the thread about it on March 16th to pat yourself on the back about a guy getting injured is a bad look. I did not "bump a thread" to "pat myself on the back"
|
|
|
Post by dmaineah on Mar 16, 2017 11:28:30 GMT -5
Is there some breaking news regarding Thornburg that has prompted this? Haven't seen anything this morning online. No, no new breaking news. What really got me going was when I went to the 2017 Projected Rosters page and saw that Thornburg was listed as starting the season on the DL along with Smith & Price.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 17, 2017 6:11:49 GMT -5
Eduardo Rodriguez and Stephen Wright spent time on the DL last year.
Are you going to blame Cherrington for this too?
Pitchers are injury risks no matter where and when. Stop blaming Dombrowski for injuries.
Also Keith Foulke was a relief pitcher with injury risks attached on 3 controllable years. How did that turn out? He won here. He didn't last long but the Sox got immediate impact out of him.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 17, 2017 6:19:23 GMT -5
Also, I loved the rise of Dubon but the only reason why he was a "highly ranked prospect" was because the Sox traded most of their better prospects away.
I have been skeptical of Dombrowski in the past (the Pomeranz deal still looks horrible to me). The moves he made this past offseason actually helped me have more faith in him actually. The Sale and Thornburg trades are not great in terms of value but could directly affect the Sox in terms of wins each year for the next three years. There's value in that.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Mar 17, 2017 8:59:11 GMT -5
From 108 Stitches:
THORNBURG TAKES A STEP: Righthander Tyler Thornburg expressed excitement with how his arm felt after his 32-pitch bullpen session on Wednesday. The difference from his last appearance in a game on March 1, he said, was marked.
“Today it felt worlds different than that one. I’m definitely excited,” said Thornburg. “The last game I threw, I was trying to grind through it, hoping it was a little spring training soreness and that it would loosen up. It didn’t . . . [Wednesday’s session] means I can continue to improve and work on things I need to work on rather than throw another bullpen to make my arm feel better.”
The Sox remain hopeful that Thornburg will be ready to start the season as their setup man. He said that he’s likely to have one more mound session — either a bullpen session or live batting practice — before progressing to games.
|
|
|
Post by dmaineah on Mar 17, 2017 10:16:41 GMT -5
Eduardo Rodriguez and Stephen Wright spent time on the DL last year. Are you going to blame Cherrington for this too?Pitchers are injury risks no matter where and when. Stop blaming Dombrowski for injuries. Also Keith Foulke was a relief pitcher with injury risks attached on 3 controllable years. How did that turn out? He won here. He didn't last long but the Sox got immediate impact out of him.
Are you going to blame Cherrington for this too?
No
Stop blaming Dombrowski for injuries.
I'm not blaming Dombrowski for injuries. I'm calling him out for trading for Relief Pitchers with previous & existing injuries. Re read my post!
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 17, 2017 13:01:43 GMT -5
Eduardo Rodriguez and Stephen Wright spent time on the DL last year. Are you going to blame Cherrington for this too?Pitchers are injury risks no matter where and when. Stop blaming Dombrowski for injuries. Also Keith Foulke was a relief pitcher with injury risks attached on 3 controllable years. How did that turn out? He won here. He didn't last long but the Sox got immediate impact out of him.
Are you going to blame Cherrington for this too?
No
Stop blaming Dombrowski for injuries.
I'm not blaming Dombrowski for injuries. I'm calling him out for trading for Relief Pitchers with previous & existing injuries. Re read my post!
Keith Foulke was a reliever signed to a 3 year deal with injury histories. How did that work out?
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Apr 13, 2017 7:28:47 GMT -5
So far this decade the Red Sox have traded Jed Lowrie, Kyle Weiland, Josh Reddick, Raul Alcanatara, Miles Head, Ivan De Jesus, Stolmy Pimentel, Jerry Sands, Jonathan Aro, Wade Miley, Travis Shaw, Mauricio Dubon, and Josh Pennington for -1.1 bWAR of Melancon, Bailey, Hanrahan, Carson Smith, and Tyler Thornburg. Brock Holt is good but I'm not sure he makes up for that. So yeah, good game, good effort.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Apr 13, 2017 7:49:38 GMT -5
So far this decade the Red Sox have traded Jed Lowrie, Kyle Weiland, Josh Reddick, Raul Alcanatara, Miles Head, Ivan De Jesus, Stolmy Pimentel, Jerry Sands, Jonathan Aro, Wade Miley, Travis Shaw, Mauricio Dubon, and Josh Pennington for -1.1 bWAR of Melancon, Bailey, Hanrahan, Carson Smith, and Tyler Thornburg. Brock Holt is good but I'm not sure he makes up for that. So yeah, good game, good effort. Other than some people with Reddick no one has missed any of those guys, yet. Too early to even be talking about the Thornburg trade and honestly the Smith trade has been a wash too... Miley wasn't good last year and Smith didn't pitch.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 13, 2017 8:03:21 GMT -5
Are you going to blame Cherrington for this too?
No
Stop blaming Dombrowski for injuries.
I'm not blaming Dombrowski for injuries. I'm calling him out for trading for Relief Pitchers with previous & existing injuries. Re read my post!
Keith Foulke was a reliever signed to a 3 year deal with injury histories. How did that work out?So basically, go ahead and acquire injured relievers, just make sure that you know ahead of time that they're going to make a heroic run in the playoffs to help your team snap an eight-decade World Series drought.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Apr 13, 2017 8:20:00 GMT -5
So far this decade the Red Sox have traded Jed Lowrie, Kyle Weiland, Josh Reddick, Raul Alcanatara, Miles Head, Ivan De Jesus, Stolmy Pimentel, Jerry Sands, Jonathan Aro, Wade Miley, Travis Shaw, Mauricio Dubon, and Josh Pennington for -1.1 bWAR of Melancon, Bailey, Hanrahan, Carson Smith, and Tyler Thornburg. Brock Holt is good but I'm not sure he makes up for that. So yeah, good game, good effort. Other than some people with Reddick no one has missed any of those guys, yet. Too early to even be talking about the Thornburg trade and honestly the Smith trade has been a wash too... Miley wasn't good last year and Smith didn't pitch. The Red Sox traded value and got none back. Also, Jed Lowrie. Lowrie and Reddick for all five of those relievers is a disaster. Trading future risk/reward for current stability but continuously misidentifying current stability is bad. Plus, in each of the deals they took on payroll.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Apr 13, 2017 8:32:22 GMT -5
I'm not saying they were not bad deals but they aren't even close to being a disaster.
Knowing what we know now, I would still do the Smith deal. I'm pretty sure they dropped payroll in that deal too.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 13, 2017 9:33:45 GMT -5
Other than some people with Reddick no one has missed any of those guys, yet. Too early to even be talking about the Thornburg trade and honestly the Smith trade has been a wash too... Miley wasn't good last year and Smith didn't pitch. The Red Sox traded value and got none back. Also, Jed Lowrie. Lowrie and Reddick for all five of those relievers is a disaster. Trading future risk/reward for current stability but continuously misidentifying current stability is bad. Plus, in each of the deals they took on payroll. Well, Holt's been worth 5.2 bWAR, so he's essentially a wash with Lowrie (5.5). Lowrie has also averaged 109 games since being traded, and that was part of the issue when he was dealt. Losing Reddick in the Bailey deal, which looked like a bad deal at the time and only got worse, leaves a much more sour taste than losing Lowrie in the Melancon deal when it turned out they were right about him in the long run.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Apr 13, 2017 9:36:13 GMT -5
Agreed, the Smith deal is (at worst) defensible. The injury risk was high to begin with so I question it as an allocation of resources, but Aro didn't have the upside and/or value that the prospects in the other deals did. And Miley was Miley.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 13, 2017 11:24:18 GMT -5
I think everyone would love a bullpen full of home grown players, but it's not that easy. So you either sign them to big long-term deals or you trade for them. The Ross trade worked out just fine. The Hembree trade was a good one. You can't just look at the bad and forget the good ones.
What would you have done?
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 13, 2017 12:15:13 GMT -5
I think the point was to focus on trades for relievers who were supposed to be either top setup guys or closers. The Ross and Hembree deals are probably examples of better places to shoot with trades and help make his point. You could add Badenhop for a GCL non-prospect to that too.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Apr 13, 2017 12:30:28 GMT -5
Ross was traded for a fringy pitcher (Ranaudo) who was in roughly the same situation as he was. Hembree was a prospect (arguably the secondary prospect) picked up in the deadline deal for Peavy. Neither were situations where the team traded future value for present. When it comes to relievers, it's all about identifying undervalued talent. Established relievers are, on the whole, a poor value.
|
|
|
Post by Coreno on Apr 13, 2017 13:04:46 GMT -5
Those were also guys who were acquired under a different regime that operated under a different MO. I think the point is that we actually want to see more deals like that and less Thornburg type deals. Though BC definitely made his fair share of those type of deals too, albeit for "established closers" instead of "setup guys with closer stuff."
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 13, 2017 13:18:23 GMT -5
That's a catch 22 though. You can bring in a bunch of guys you think are about to breakout and they could suck. It's not like it's easy to just pick up guys that are ready to breakout without trading future value. There's a reason why building a good bullpen is the hardest thing to do in Baseball year after year.
BTW shouldn't we see how Smith and Thornburg pitch this year before we think those were bad trades?
|
|
|
Post by greatscottcooper on Apr 13, 2017 17:52:26 GMT -5
If Thornburg and Smith make those trades look good this team is going to be stupid good. Especially when Betts/Pedroia/Bogaerts/Benintendi get going.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on May 16, 2017 13:00:18 GMT -5
|
|
|