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2017 Celtics offseason
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Post by soxpatsceltics on Jun 19, 2017 14:54:09 GMT -5
I just don't think the "Butler can't take over games narrative" is true. Look at his supporting cast. The Bulls spacing was next level horrible, none could shoot a 3. That's fine but watching that series it wasn't a good look for him. He looked great in the first couple games with even less spacing then basically it felt like he disappeared. Didn't even feel like he really competed. In the 4 losses without Rondo, Butler averaged 21/4/7 with a better than 2:1 assist to TO ratio. He was basically asked to play PG because Canaan was a deep bench guy at best. That's not even close to his natural position. It's also relevant to say that you can't make those kind of judgements on 4 game sample sizes. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 19, 2017 15:00:18 GMT -5
That's fine but watching that series it wasn't a good look for him. He looked great in the first couple games with even less spacing then basically it felt like he disappeared. Didn't even feel like he really competed. In the 4 losses without Rondo, Butler averaged 21/4/7 with a better than 2:1 assist to TO ratio. He was basically asked to play PG because Canaan was a deep bench guy at best. That's not even close to his natural position. It's also relevant to say that you can't make those kind of judgements on 4 game sample sizes. I don't disagree; just wasn't the look of a super star is all. He is a very good player. |
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Jun 19, 2017 15:14:03 GMT -5
Hayward can play on and off the ball effectively, and I never mentioned Thomas. For the record, I'm not a Butler fan and don't want to see the Celtics give up major assets for him. Are we trading Thomas? You have to look at how the whole team fits together. Hayward wouldn't be great playing off the ball. As he's a good, but not great shooter. The only way that works is if Thomas plays as a pass first PG. He has the ability to do that, you saw it like 25% of the time last year. If he's willing to average like 18-20 points, but get around 10 assists a game it could work. Your words were that Butler and Hayward don't fit together, which is what I responded to. Stop moving the goalposts after the fact. |
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Post by soxpatsceltics on Jun 19, 2017 15:15:55 GMT -5
In the 4 losses without Rondo, Butler averaged 21/4/7 with a better than 2:1 assist to TO ratio. He was basically asked to play PG because Canaan was a deep bench guy at best. That's not even close to his natural position. It's also relevant to say that you can't make those kind of judgements on 4 game sample sizes. I don't disagree; just wasn't the look of a super star is all. He is a very good player. Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a superstar. By almost all metrics, Butler was a top 15 player this year. Personally, I would have no qualms about trading #3, Bradley and filler for Butler. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 19, 2017 15:21:24 GMT -5
I don't disagree; just wasn't the look of a super star is all. He is a very good player. Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a superstar. By almost all metrics, Butler was a top 15 player this year. Personally, I would have no qualms about trading #3, Bradley and filler for Butler. It's a hard thing to define for sure and stats don't do it. A superstar needs to consistently take over and impact games at a level that influences the outcome . There aren't a lot of those guys for sure which is why the NBA is hard to win. I'm not saying Butler can't be or won't be but he wasn't in that series. I wouldn't be happy giving up that package for Butler. Now that they aren't drafting Fultz I'm hoping they are keeping Bradley. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 19, 2017 15:59:32 GMT -5
Are we trading Thomas? You have to look at how the whole team fits together. Hayward wouldn't be great playing off the ball. As he's a good, but not great shooter. The only way that works is if Thomas plays as a pass first PG. He has the ability to do that, you saw it like 25% of the time last year. If he's willing to average like 18-20 points, but get around 10 assists a game it could work. Your words were that Butler and Hayward don't fit together, which is what I responded to. Stop moving the goalposts after the fact. They won't on the Celtics. Come on are you really trying to look at this without context? We are talking about them pairing up on the Celtics, not some other team. I never moved the goalposts, your acting like they don't exist. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 19, 2017 16:17:25 GMT -5
Ray Allen was great at playing off the ball. Sure he could create, but he would run around screens and get open for a three. Pierce was a guy that needed the ball to create. Both Hayward and Butler need the ball to create. Add in Thomas who needs the ball and I just don't see it. That's the exact opposite of Pierce, Allen and KG who fit together like a glove. Griffin, Butler and Thomas fit together in a better way. Butler is one of the best slashers in the game. He played that role before ascending to #1 option. He's also only had 1 year with a USG% above 25. His ability to create his own shot and drive means he could be fine off the ball as well. Shot 55% on corner 3s last year and 43% in his career. He doesn't need the ball. How exactly are you great at getting to basket without the ball? Are you talking about cutting to the basket without the ball? Butlers game is driving, creating and passing. His shot comes and goes from season to season. Since when is only corner 3 shooting the measure of being able to play off the ball? That's like saying Smart is great playing off the ball because he can shoot a corner 3. Butlers usage rate was 24.4 and 26.5 the last two years. I mean we aren't trading for Jimmy Butler 3-4 years ago. That was a developing player. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 19, 2017 16:27:41 GMT -5
The real truth is we don't exactly know how they would fit together. You can use usage rate or whatever you want but when put in different situations you don't know what those rates would be. Thomas usage is so high because it had to be. Likewise the other two had to be the main guy on their teams. Maybe they would all be happy sharing.
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Post by soxpatsceltics on Jun 19, 2017 16:27:53 GMT -5
Butler is one of the best slashers in the game. He played that role before ascending to #1 option. He's also only had 1 year with a USG% above 25. His ability to create his own shot and drive means he could be fine off the ball as well. Shot 55% on corner 3s last year and 43% in his career. He doesn't need the ball. How exactly are you great at getting to basket without the ball? Are you talking about cutting to the basket without the ball? Butlers game is driving, creating and passing. His shot comes and goes from season to season. Since when is only corner 3 shooting the measure of being able to play off the ball? That's like saying Smart is great playing off the ball because he can shoot a corner 3. Butlers usage rate was 24.4 and 26.5 the last two years. I mean we aren't trading for Jimmy Butler 3-4 years ago. That was a developing player. Marcus smart is a career 34% shooter on corner 3s. With Butler you can plant him in the corner on IT pick and rolls and improve the team twofold: Butler will nail more of those shots and his defender won't want to help on the roller given the shooting, giving both IT and the roller much more space to work with. Yes, by definition, a slasher is a guy that can work off the ball and gets to the rim at ease. Essentially Bradley's role, but with the ability to get to the line and create his own shot. Butler's Ftrate was much higher than even IT's last year. IT's usage percentage has been over 33% in a Celtic uniform. That's insane. 26.5% is extremely low usage for a star. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 19, 2017 16:27:59 GMT -5
I don't disagree; just wasn't the look of a super star is all. He is a very good player. Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a superstar. By almost all metrics, Butler was a top 15 player this year. Personally, I would have no qualms about trading #3, Bradley and filler for Butler. Everyone lumps star and superstar together. They just aren't the same thing. There are very few superstars and a bunch of stars. Jimmy Buter is a star, not a superstar. Superstars are LeBron, Durant, Curry, Davis type players. |
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 19, 2017 16:31:48 GMT -5
I don't disagree; just wasn't the look of a super star is all. He is a very good player. Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a superstar. By almost all metrics, Butler was a top 15 player this year. Personally, I would have no qualms about trading #3, Bradley and filler for Butler. Reports are that Chicago, looking to get younger, was willing to trade Butler to Philly for the #3 pick and that it would pick the superior athlete in Jackson. If so, we should be able to make that same trade. Butler will be 28 next season so a trade would be a shorter term view. www.google.com/amp/nesn.com/2017/06/nba-rumors-celtics-want-to-flip-no-3-pick-in-trade-for-jimmy-butler/amp/If we keep the pick, Jackson apparently has higher upside than Tatum, by consensus outside of Ainge, but Tatum could be of greater offensive help next year with already polished footwork and midrange shooting, albeit less defensive chops. Some Tatum comparisons are with a bigger Paul Pierce. Jackson has a few disturbing police run-ins and other issues. He sent a disparaging/challenging tweet toward Fultz after the trade as well. For me, I would keep the choice, trust Danny to pick the best and sign Hayward or Griffin who are both younger than Butler and cost nothing in return. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 19, 2017 16:40:44 GMT -5
How exactly are you great at getting to basket without the ball? Are you talking about cutting to the basket without the ball? Butlers game is driving, creating and passing. His shot comes and goes from season to season. Since when is only corner 3 shooting the measure of being able to play off the ball? That's like saying Smart is great playing off the ball because he can shoot a corner 3. Butlers usage rate was 24.4 and 26.5 the last two years. I mean we aren't trading for Jimmy Butler 3-4 years ago. That was a developing player. Marcus smart is a career 34% shooter on corner 3s. With Butler you can plant him in the corner on IT pick and rolls and improve the team twofold: Butler will nail more of those shots and his defender won't want to help on the roller given the shooting, giving both IT and the roller much more space to work with. Yes, by definition, a slasher is a guy that can work off the ball and gets to the rim at ease. Essentially Bradley's role, but with the ability to get to the line and create his own shot. Butler's Ftrate was much higher than even IT's last year. IT's usage percentage has been over 33% in a Celtic uniform. That's insane. 26.5% is extremely low usage for a star. Bradley shoot 39% from corner 3 and 30% of his 3s were from the corner, Butler was only at 15% of his 3s. Butler's numbers will drop if he doubles his attempts. Goes from taking wide open shots, to shots with a hand in face. It's not going to be an improvement. I mean come on Bradley's defenders weren't leaving him open. The big improvement is Butlers ability to drive and create, but that's also the issue if you have Thomas, Butler and Hayward. Come on Hayward is by far the better choice to play off the ball, not Butler. Butler played in 20 more games than Bradley and had like 20 less 3 point attempts. Meaning he attempted half of the corner 3s that Bradley did. Butler took like 40 corner 3s all season and Bradley took like 90 in 20 less games. One player is taking almost 2 a game, the other is taking one every two games. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 19, 2017 16:42:56 GMT -5
If the Celtics don't keep this pick and draft Tatum over Jackson, then I will lose my mind.
Jackson is the guy you pick and keep at this point, unless for some odd reason that the Lakers pick Jackson. Then Ball is the guy you pick, unless you know he doesn't want to sign here. Then you should trade down again.
Jackson is the guy though that Danny should want.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 19, 2017 16:46:33 GMT -5
Whats funny is the third overall pick by itself is substantially less than what we've offered before for Jimmy.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 19, 2017 16:51:36 GMT -5
Whats funny is the third overall pick by itself is substantially less than what we've offered before for Jimmy. What did we offer? Only reports i've seen is what the Bulls wanted from us. |
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Post by soxpatsceltics on Jun 19, 2017 16:53:04 GMT -5
Marcus smart is a career 34% shooter on corner 3s. With Butler you can plant him in the corner on IT pick and rolls and improve the team twofold: Butler will nail more of those shots and his defender won't want to help on the roller given the shooting, giving both IT and the roller much more space to work with. Yes, by definition, a slasher is a guy that can work off the ball and gets to the rim at ease. Essentially Bradley's role, but with the ability to get to the line and create his own shot. Butler's Ftrate was much higher than even IT's last year. IT's usage percentage has been over 33% in a Celtic uniform. That's insane. 26.5% is extremely low usage for a star. Bradley shoot 39% from corner 3 and 30% of his 3s were from the corner, Butler was only at 15% of his 3s. Butler's numbers will drop if he doubles his attempts. Goes from taking wide open shots, to shots with a hand in face. It's not going to be an improvement. I mean come on Bradley's defenders weren't leaving him open. The big improvement is Butlers ability to drive and create, but that's also the issue if you have Thomas, Butler and Hayward. Come on Hayward is by far the better choice to play off the ball, not Butler. Butler played in 20 more games than Bradley and had like 20 less 3 point attempts. Meaning he attempted half of the corner 3s that Bradley did. Butler took like 40 corner 3s all season and Bradley took like 90 in 20 less games. One player is taking almost 2 a game, the other is taking one every two games. 40% of corner 3s are uncontested. When you change that to unassisted corner 3s it raises above 45%. By design they are supposed to be wide open shots, they won't get less open if volume increases. Hayward is the #1 target, I agree. But since the Jazz have the ability to offer him 1 more money and Hayward has the leverage to convince the Jazz to sign a 1+1 max and go to FA in a higher max tier next year. Trading for Butler eliminates all uncertainty. It also is worth mentioning that trading Butler doesn't rule out Hayward, because Butler's salary is comparatively low. Shipping out Bradley and IT for future lottery picks and bringing in Hayward and Butler matches up salary wise and improves both the team's talent and future pick situation. |
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Jun 19, 2017 16:59:42 GMT -5
Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a superstar. By almost all metrics, Butler was a top 15 player this year. Personally, I would have no qualms about trading #3, Bradley and filler for Butler. Everyone lumps star and superstar together. They just aren't the same thing. There are very few superstars and a bunch of stars. Jimmy Buter is a star, not a superstar. Superstars are LeBron, Durant, Curry, Davis type players. Bingo. There are usually a couple players that are debatable superstars, but Butler ain't on that list. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 19, 2017 17:04:01 GMT -5
Bradley shoot 39% from corner 3 and 30% of his 3s were from the corner, Butler was only at 15% of his 3s. Butler's numbers will drop if he doubles his attempts. Goes from taking wide open shots, to shots with a hand in face. It's not going to be an improvement. I mean come on Bradley's defenders weren't leaving him open. The big improvement is Butlers ability to drive and create, but that's also the issue if you have Thomas, Butler and Hayward. Come on Hayward is by far the better choice to play off the ball, not Butler. Butler played in 20 more games than Bradley and had like 20 less 3 point attempts. Meaning he attempted half of the corner 3s that Bradley did. Butler took like 40 corner 3s all season and Bradley took like 90 in 20 less games. One player is taking almost 2 a game, the other is taking one every two games. 40% of corner 3s are uncontested. When you change that to unassisted corner 3s it raises above 45%. By design they are supposed to be wide open shots, they won't get less open if volume increases. Hayward is the #1 target, I agree. But since the Jazz have the ability to offer him 1 more money and Hayward has the leverage to convince the Jazz to sign a 1+1 max and go to FA in a higher max tier next year. Trading for Butler eliminates all uncertainty. It also is worth mentioning that trading Butler doesn't rule out Hayward, because Butler's salary is comparatively low. Shipping out Bradley and IT for future lottery picks and bringing in Hayward and Butler matches up salary wise and improves both the team's talent and future pick situation. So Butler improves IT going to the basket, because once every 2 games he can hit a wide open corner 3? Butler will not be an upgrade over Bradley when it comes to floor spacing or playing off the ball. Bradley is great at playing off the ball, thats all he does. To be clear, my argument is that Butler and Hayward aren't a good match. Mainly because shooting isn't Butlers strong suit, driving to the basket is. So Butler at SG is not good in my opinion. If you play Butler at SF and he replaces Crowder that's a different story. That's a big upgrade. Call me crazy but I want a good shooter to play SG. |
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Post by soxpatsceltics on Jun 19, 2017 17:08:58 GMT -5
40% of corner 3s are uncontested. When you change that to unassisted corner 3s it raises above 45%. By design they are supposed to be wide open shots, they won't get less open if volume increases. Hayward is the #1 target, I agree. But since the Jazz have the ability to offer him 1 more money and Hayward has the leverage to convince the Jazz to sign a 1+1 max and go to FA in a higher max tier next year. Trading for Butler eliminates all uncertainty. It also is worth mentioning that trading Butler doesn't rule out Hayward, because Butler's salary is comparatively low. Shipping out Bradley and IT for future lottery picks and bringing in Hayward and Butler matches up salary wise and improves both the team's talent and future pick situation. So Butler improves IT going to the basket, because once every 2 games he can hit a wide open corner 3? Butler will not be an upgrade over Bradley when it comes to floor spacing or playing off the ball. Bradley is great at playing off the ball, thats all he does. To be clear, my argument is that Butler and Hayward aren't a good match. Mainly because shooting isn't Butlers strong suit, driving to the basket is. So Butler at SG is not good in my opinion. If you play Butler at SF and he replaces Crowder that's a different story. That's a big upgrade. Call me crazy but I want a good shooter to play SG. Butler has been the #1 option in Chicago for 3 years now. I would hope that he's not just spotting up in the corner while the offense runs hobbled D-Rose, Rondo, MCW, and Jerrian Grant pick and rolls! For comparison, Butler shoots a higher percentage of corner 3s than IT the last 3 years. 2-3 and stretch 4 is positionless basketball at this point. Butler, Hayward and Crowder can play all 3 roles, and there are 2.5 good shooters in the group. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 19, 2017 17:58:21 GMT -5
Would you rather trade Crowder or Bradley?
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 19, 2017 18:07:02 GMT -5
I find it fascinating that Griffin is talking about Boston and if I weren't so concerned about his injury history I would probably prefer him to Hayward.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 19, 2017 18:12:13 GMT -5
If the Celtics don't keep this pick and draft Tatum over Jackson, then I will lose my mind. Jackson is the guy you pick and keep at this point, unless for some odd reason that the Lakers pick Jackson. Then Ball is the guy you pick, unless you know he doesn't want to sign here. Then you should trade down again. Jackson is the guy though that Danny should want. Pedro Ball is yet another guard...with 4 inch less reach than Fultz and without the offense/ability to get his own shot. He is a great passer but a ball dominator. With IT getting 35 minutes, how does he help unless we jettison one or two of our guards? Not....Going.... To.... Happen. We either keep the pick, trade for Butler with #3, trade down further for picks 5 & 10 (hoping for Tatum et al) or try to get Davis...exhausting our future cache. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 19, 2017 18:14:31 GMT -5
I like Tatum a lot.... word is the Suns want to trade up to 3 to get Jackson - maybe Danny can trade down one more spot and snag the Suns first next year too (number 1 protected of course.. lol)
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 19, 2017 18:33:33 GMT -5
I like Tatum a lot.... word is the Suns want to trade up to 3 to get Jackson - maybe Danny can trade down one more spot and snag the Suns first next year too (number 1 protected of course.. lol) I just don't know how you pass up on Jackson imo. The reason why the 76's pick and deal was so appealing was because of the fact thay Jackson should still be there at pick number 3. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 19, 2017 18:52:01 GMT -5
So Butler improves IT going to the basket, because once every 2 games he can hit a wide open corner 3? Butler will not be an upgrade over Bradley when it comes to floor spacing or playing off the ball. Bradley is great at playing off the ball, thats all he does. To be clear, my argument is that Butler and Hayward aren't a good match. Mainly because shooting isn't Butlers strong suit, driving to the basket is. So Butler at SG is not good in my opinion. If you play Butler at SF and he replaces Crowder that's a different story. That's a big upgrade. Call me crazy but I want a good shooter to play SG. Butler has been the #1 option in Chicago for 3 years now. I would hope that he's not just spotting up in the corner while the offense runs hobbled D-Rose, Rondo, MCW, and Jerrian Grant pick and rolls! For comparison, Butler shoots a higher percentage of corner 3s than IT the last 3 years. 2-3 and stretch 4 is positionless basketball at this point. Butler, Hayward and Crowder can play all 3 roles, and there are 2.5 good shooters in the group. What is it with you and corner 3s? Butler takes one like every 2 games. How does it really even matter? He's only good because he takes wide open easy shots. Thomas took over 1 a game. Again if Butler increased his attempts by over 50% his shooting % would go way down. He's not a good shooter. You're like a guy thinking innings doesn't matter for an era title in baseball or games for a batting title. His very limited attempts are the reason he has such a high shooting %. Thomas is 5 times the shooter Butler is. Thomas would shoot 85% from corner 3s if he took Butlers attempts and not the hard shots he takes. 2-3 and stretch 4 is not positionless in basketball. Not even close. You need to be able to defend. Hayward isn't defending pfs, i'm not even sure how he would do on sgs. Butler is a great defender, but does he have Crowders strength for guarding pfs? Crowder would also struggle with really quick guards. Just because Crowder can play pf for 15 minutes a night, doesn't mean he can play it full-time either. Not even close. |
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