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2017 Celtics offseason
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 19, 2017 18:58:04 GMT -5
I like Tatum a lot.... word is the Suns want to trade up to 3 to get Jackson - maybe Danny can trade down one more spot and snag the Suns first next year too (number 1 protected of course.. lol) I just don't know how you pass up on Jackson imo. The reason why the 76's pick and deal was so appealing was because of the fact thay Jackson should still be there at pick number 3. Jackson and Tatum are both really good players. I would be happy with either. While Jackson has a higher ceiling, Tatum has the higher floor. Outside of Fultz, Tatum has the second highest floor in top 5. The only thing is that most reports say the Suns want Fox, not Jackson. It's why Kings want to jump to 3 to get Fox. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 19, 2017 19:06:26 GMT -5
If the Kings really want Fox and you know trading down to 5 you can get Tatum or Jackson I would take the 10th pick to do that
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 19, 2017 19:12:10 GMT -5
Switching gears what is Zizic's ceiling?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 19, 2017 19:19:34 GMT -5
I just don't know how you pass up on Jackson imo. The reason why the 76's pick and deal was so appealing was because of the fact thay Jackson should still be there at pick number 3. Jackson and Tatum are both really good players. I would be happy with either. While Jackson has a higher ceiling, Tatum has the higher floor. Outside of Fultz, Tatum has the second highest floor in top 5. The only thing is that most reports say the Suns want Fox, not Jackson. It's why Kings want to jump to 3 to get Fox. Danny always airs on the side of upside imo. The Jeff Greene pick and the Brown picks are great examples of this. I do think the Celtics would take Tatum at number three though if Jackson is off the table. It all depends on what the Lakers do actually. The Lakers have a great chance to pee in the Celtics pool with the Jackson scenario. If the Suns truly want Jackson, they could trade up with the Lakers and take the 2 pick and take Jackson. The Lakers might do this because they could feel they might still get Ball at number 4 with the Suns pick. I'm not totally sure the Lakers would want to strengthen the Suns in the western conference however. I do think this is the reason why the Celtics are working out Tatum though. |
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Post by soxpatsceltics on Jun 19, 2017 19:22:58 GMT -5
Butler has been the #1 option in Chicago for 3 years now. I would hope that he's not just spotting up in the corner while the offense runs hobbled D-Rose, Rondo, MCW, and Jerrian Grant pick and rolls! For comparison, Butler shoots a higher percentage of corner 3s than IT the last 3 years. 2-3 and stretch 4 is positionless basketball at this point. Butler, Hayward and Crowder can play all 3 roles, and there are 2.5 good shooters in the group. What is it with you and corner 3s? Butler takes one like every 2 games. How does it really even matter? He's only good because he takes wide open easy shots. Thomas took over 1 a game. Again if Butler increased his attempts by over 50% his shooting % would go way down. He's not a good shooter. You're like a guy thinking innings doesn't matter for an era title in baseball or games for a batting title. His very limited attempts are the reason he has such a high shooting %. Thomas is 5 times the shooter Butler is. Thomas would shoot 85% from corner 3s if he took Butlers attempts and not the hard shots he takes. 2-3 and stretch 4 is not positionless in basketball. Not even close. You need to be able to defend. Hayward isn't defending pfs, i'm not even sure how he would do on sgs. Butler is a great defender, but does he have Crowders strength for guarding pfs? Crowder would also struggle with really quick guards. Just because Crowder can play pf for 15 minutes a night, doesn't mean he can play it full-time either. Not even close. If this is actually what you think then there s no reason to continue this discussion. IT is better on pullup 3s. Butler is a better spot up corner shooter. I'm talking about corner 3s because that's where Butler would be if he played off the ball. Crowder played the 2 a good amount in his entire Mavs career. Butler and Hayward have both played stretch 4 and they were both SGs as rookies and sophomores. Crowder can backup 2,3 and 4 and still play about 24 mpg. Even with limited minutes he's a huge bargain with 3/22 left on his deal. Making less/year than E'Twuan Moore, Delly, Alec Burks, Monta Ellis, Soloman Hill, Terrence Ross... The list goes on. The fact that you actually think IT would shoot 85% from 3 in the corners is laughable. The entire reason Butler isnt shooting that many corner 3s over the last 3 years is because he's a #1 option, like IT. He's shot 43% from the corner his entire career, the sample size isn't small... in fact it's over 250 3s. And once again, there's a reason corner 3s are the best shot in the game. They are uncontested almost 50% of the time. Shooting more corner 3s doesn't make opponents contest them any more than they already do. |
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
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Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 19, 2017 19:25:21 GMT -5
Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a superstar. By almost all metrics, Butler was a top 15 player this year. Personally, I would have no qualms about trading #3, Bradley and filler for Butler. Reports are that Chicago, looking to get younger, was willing to trade Butler to Philly for the #3 pick and that it would pick the superior athlete in Jackson. If so, we should be able to make that same trade. Butler will be 28 next season so a trade would be a shorter term view. www.google.com/amp/nesn.com/2017/06/nba-rumors-celtics-want-to-flip-no-3-pick-in-trade-for-jimmy-butler/amp/If we keep the pick, Jackson apparently has higher upside than Tatum, by consensus outside of Ainge, but Tatum could be of greater offensive help next year with already polished footwork and midrange shooting, albeit less defensive chops. Some Tatum comparisons are with a bigger Paul Pierce. Jackson has a few disturbing police run-ins and other issues. He sent a disparaging/challenging tweet toward Fultz after the trade as well. For me, I would keep the choice, trust Danny to pick the best and sign Hayward or Griffin who are both younger than Butler and cost nothing in return. Didn't know you were in to hoops also! I'm a big fan myself. Keep the pick and take Tatum. |
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Jun 19, 2017 19:40:12 GMT -5
I think Tatum will be a much better pro player than Jackson as he can create his own shot and he is a much better shooter and rebounder, three areas that the Celtics need. Jackson needs to re-tool his shot as he will have a hard time getting it off in the NBA with such a low release.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 19, 2017 19:53:28 GMT -5
I'm coming around on drafting Tatum, I wouldn't mind it now and may like him better than Jackson. God damn it umassgrad2005 (:
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 19, 2017 23:53:43 GMT -5
Switching gears what is Zizic's ceiling? That's hard with no college stats or game tape. Based of what we know I would say his ceiling is starter. With a range of very good bench player to good starter. I'm really high on him. Should be a very good rebounder right away. Questions I have are about his D and offensive game. How advanced is he? His lack of passing could be an issue. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 20, 2017 0:01:07 GMT -5
If the Kings really want Fox and you know trading down to 5 you can get Tatum or Jackson I would take the 10th pick to do that If you make that trade, just do it on draft day. Have an agreement in place, that if Fox is there at 3, we do the trade for 5 and 10, then draft this player or this one. Fords new info says Fox refused to workout for Suns. He wants to play for Kings. Says he thinks Suns board is now Ball, Jackson, Tatum and then Fox. Some members of Suns still love Fox, but with no workout it hurts his chances. So I wonder if that deal is still available. Maybe, it's rare when a top prospect wants to play for the Kings. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 20, 2017 0:07:17 GMT -5
Jackson and Tatum are both really good players. I would be happy with either. While Jackson has a higher ceiling, Tatum has the higher floor. Outside of Fultz, Tatum has the second highest floor in top 5. The only thing is that most reports say the Suns want Fox, not Jackson. It's why Kings want to jump to 3 to get Fox. Danny always airs on the side of upside imo. The Jeff Greene pick and the Brown picks are great examples of this. I do think the Celtics would take Tatum at number three though if Jackson is off the table. It all depends on what the Lakers do actually. The Lakers have a great chance to pee in the Celtics pool with the Jackson scenario. If the Suns truly want Jackson, they could trade up with the Lakers and take the 2 pick and take Jackson. The Lakers might do this because they could feel they might still get Ball at number 4 with the Suns pick. I'm not totally sure the Lakers would want to strengthen the Suns in the western conference however. I do think this is the reason why the Celtics are working out Tatum though. He didn't take the highest upside guy when he took Smart over Vonleh. If you put a gun to my head and made me choose one right now I say Jackson. I just don't think it's a slam dunk. Tatum has worked out for us, Jackson hasn't. Tatum also fills a bunch of needs and is pro ready. They are both really good prospects. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 20, 2017 0:54:33 GMT -5
What is it with you and corner 3s? Butler takes one like every 2 games. How does it really even matter? He's only good because he takes wide open easy shots. Thomas took over 1 a game. Again if Butler increased his attempts by over 50% his shooting % would go way down. He's not a good shooter. You're like a guy thinking innings doesn't matter for an era title in baseball or games for a batting title. His very limited attempts are the reason he has such a high shooting %. Thomas is 5 times the shooter Butler is. Thomas would shoot 85% from corner 3s if he took Butlers attempts and not the hard shots he takes. 2-3 and stretch 4 is not positionless in basketball. Not even close. You need to be able to defend. Hayward isn't defending pfs, i'm not even sure how he would do on sgs. Butler is a great defender, but does he have Crowders strength for guarding pfs? Crowder would also struggle with really quick guards. Just because Crowder can play pf for 15 minutes a night, doesn't mean he can play it full-time either. Not even close. If this is actually what you think then there s no reason to continue this discussion. IT is better on pullup 3s. Butler is a better spot up corner shooter. I'm talking about corner 3s because that's where Butler would be if he played off the ball. Crowder played the 2 a good amount in his entire Mavs career. Butler and Hayward have both played stretch 4 and they were both SGs as rookies and sophomores. Crowder can backup 2,3 and 4 and still play about 24 mpg. Even with limited minutes he's a huge bargain with 3/22 left on his deal. Making less/year than E'Twuan Moore, Delly, Alec Burks, Monta Ellis, Soloman Hill, Terrence Ross... The list goes on. The fact that you actually think IT would shoot 85% from 3 in the corners is laughable. The entire reason Butler isnt shooting that many corner 3s over the last 3 years is because he's a #1 option, like IT. He's shot 43% from the corner his entire career, the sample size isn't small... in fact it's over 250 3s. And once again, there's a reason corner 3s are the best shot in the game. They are uncontested almost 50% of the time. Shooting more corner 3s doesn't make opponents contest them any more than they already do. There's a reason why people don't put too much stock in limited sample sizes. Corner 3s aren't all wide open looks. Come on that's just not true. The ones Butler takes are and that's why his % is so high and his attempts are so low. There's a reason why Thomas took almost 3 times as many 3s this year compared to Butler. One is a great shooter, the other varries between good to below average. You keep acting like Butler being a #1 option is why his attempts are so low. Yet Thomas attempted more than double the corner 3s. How many of those do you think were wide open? How many wide open shots does Thomas get? Yes if Thomas took those same limited wide open attempts Butler took, Thomas would shoot 85%. Thomas shot 38% from deep, taking some of the toughest 3 point attempts you will see a player take. He almost doesn't miss wide open three point shots and teams aren't stupid enough to give him many. Butler is totally different. You will give him the outside shots, instead of letting him drive to the lane at will. Butler is not a better shooter than Thomas from deep. It's just not true! Are you really going to argue that players can double the amounts of shots a player takes from a certain spot in a given season and the efficiency stays the same? Were not talking about some guy playing limited minutes either. There is a reason why Butler doesn't attempt 650 3 point attempts a year like Thomas. He is not a great shooter, Thomas is. If Butler took 650 3s next year you wouldn't like the results. That's why Butler picks his spots and Thomas just shoots away. It's like comparing Horfords attempts to Thomas. Horford picks his spots, mainly wide open looks. If Hordford took the shots Thomas did, it would be downright awful to watch. When it comes to Hayward, Butler and Crowder what exactly are you trying to prove? That they can play limited minutes at a position against certain teams or that all 3 can play the 2, 3 and stretch 4 like you said? Sure they can play limited minutes based on match up. All 3 can't play those positions full time, which was your orginal point. Hayward has played sf the majority of the time for his whole career. Butler did play sg for years. Crowder has added so much muscle since he played sg full time. All 3 have never been even close to full-time stretch 4s. Only limited minutes based on match ups. Do you really think anyone of those players can be a fulltime starter as a stretch 4? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 20, 2017 1:02:53 GMT -5
I think Tatum will be a much better pro player than Jackson as he can create his own shot and he is a much better shooter and rebounder, three areas that the Celtics need. Jackson needs to re-tool his shot as he will have a hard time getting it off in the NBA with such a low release. Tatum is much better at creating his own shot. He's not a better rebounder, the are equal, both will be elite for sfs. Shooting is also debatable. Tatum has an edge at the line and in mid range, but Jackson was better from deep. Both players biggest flaw is shooting. Jackson is the better defender and we really need D. So it comes down to D or O on draft night. If last season was a clue to our future, they take Tatum. If the teams goal is to just outscore everyone. It's not going to be an easy choice. I wouldn't want to make it. Will be happy either way! |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 20, 2017 1:04:27 GMT -5
Danny always airs on the side of upside imo. The Jeff Greene pick and the Brown picks are great examples of this. I do think the Celtics would take Tatum at number three though if Jackson is off the table. It all depends on what the Lakers do actually. The Lakers have a great chance to pee in the Celtics pool with the Jackson scenario. If the Suns truly want Jackson, they could trade up with the Lakers and take the 2 pick and take Jackson. The Lakers might do this because they could feel they might still get Ball at number 4 with the Suns pick. I'm not totally sure the Lakers would want to strengthen the Suns in the western conference however. I do think this is the reason why the Celtics are working out Tatum though. He didn't take the highest upside guy when he took Smart over Vonleh. If you put a gun to my head and made me choose one right now I say Jackson. I just don't think it's a slam dunk. Tatum has worked out for us, Jackson hasn't. Tatum also fills a bunch of needs and is pro ready. They are both really good prospects. Smart could of been viewed as a higher upside guy with a improved shot. He still has upside in that regard for me at least. He's still 23 I think. Danny shouldn't be going into this thinking about improving this year's team. He needs to go into every draft looking for the next superstar in this league. Jackson is the exact player that has a chance to be the next Kawhi Leonard. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 20, 2017 1:13:46 GMT -5
He didn't take the highest upside guy when he took Smart over Vonleh. If you put a gun to my head and made me choose one right now I say Jackson. I just don't think it's a slam dunk. Tatum has worked out for us, Jackson hasn't. Tatum also fills a bunch of needs and is pro ready. They are both really good prospects. Smart could of been viewed as a higher upside guy with a improved shot. He still has upside in that regard for me at least. He's still 23 I think. Danny shouldn't be going into this thinking about improving this year's team. He needs to go into every draft looking for the next superstar in this league. Jackson is the exact player that has a chance to be the next Kawhi Leonard. No way, Smart is just too limited athletically. Vonleh had one of the highest upsides in draft, he was just super raw. You can't just look at upside and not at the chances he reaches that upside. I loved the James Young pick because he had massive upside, but also a very low chance of reaching it. If Jackson upside is Leonard and Tatum is Pierce, you take Jackson if they both have the same percentage chance of reaching that upside. Thing is I feel Tatum has a much better chance of becoming Pierce than Jackson does of becoming Leonard. That's why this is such a tough choice. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 20, 2017 1:45:02 GMT -5
Smart could of been viewed as a higher upside guy with a improved shot. He still has upside in that regard for me at least. He's still 23 I think. Danny shouldn't be going into this thinking about improving this year's team. He needs to go into every draft looking for the next superstar in this league. Jackson is the exact player that has a chance to be the next Kawhi Leonard. No way, Smart is just too limited athletically. Vonleh had one of the highest upsides in draft, he was just super raw. You can't just look at upside and not at the chances he reaches that upside. I loved the James Young pick because he had massive upside, but also a very low chance of reaching it. If Jackson upside is Leonard and Tatum is Pierce, you take Jackson if they both have the same percentage chance of reaching that upside. Thing is I feel Tatum has a much better chance of becoming Pierce than Jackson does of becoming Leonard. That's why this is such a tough choice. I never said that Smart had the highest upside at the time of his draft, I said his game had upside if his shot improved and he still has a chance to do that imo. They liked Smart at the time for his competitiveness and other tangible things Smart does on the floor. Smart is a unique guy in that regard. I do think Jackson has a higher floor than what you're giving him credit for too. Jackson can explode to the rim and create easy buckets. He is a pretty good finisher inside the paint. His shot isn't as bad as people think either. He has a pretty quick release and good form. He needs to add strength and maybe get his shot off higher in the NBA, but his athleticism is off the charts. I'll be ticked if the Celtics pass on him. |
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Post by pedroelgrande on Jun 20, 2017 3:56:45 GMT -5
After doing my midnight research ie watching Draft Express scouting video I have come to the conclusion that I prefer Tatum over Jackson. He is younger, his shot looks better and has a better body to play the 3/4 position. Jackson is more athletic and projects to guard 3/2 better but I think his shot is suspect.
I still would have prefer they stood pat and took Fultz cause he is a great shooter and the Celtics sorely lack that but I do think he has limitations in his game I don't see the quickness I see in other elite PGs.
I think the top 3 will go down Fultz, Jackson, Tatum. I think the Lakers will pass on Ball and be the "shock" of the night.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 20, 2017 4:54:27 GMT -5
I feel the same way. Reports out of LA were that Jackson had a terrible workout...perhaps a smokescreen so Danny wouldn't take him at 1. Also Jackson would not work out for others including the Cs, with rumors that he had been promised being selected by another team. That was when it was assumed the C's would take Fultz. That team could be LA and probably not Philly, then at #3. Further no guarantees were made to Ball. Finally, to me Jackson fits the LA athlete profile.
We aren't going to take Ball for the same reason we passed on Fultz..set at guard. And, we don't want Dad in the huddle.
Tatum is the guy, perhaps by default.
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Post by ryan24 on Jun 20, 2017 6:39:40 GMT -5
You guys are really getting into it. Except for the over the top discussion on 3 balls from the corner you all bring up interesting opinions. Danny is very strong in his opinion that the 1st four guys in the draft are pretty equal. Trading the first pick for the 3rd and getting another 1st rounder seems like an excellent value. Danny still gets one of his guys. I do not think that Danny is locked in on IT. Who is his franchise player he feels comfortable paying HUGE money? I do not think it is IT. The lakers probably will not take Jackson or tatum. Because that would duplicate what they already have. What they do not have is a true point guard. It would not surprise me that the lakers take fox instead of ball. It would not surprise me that Danny takes ball or fox and uses them in a trade. The warriors have the window shut on the title for 2 maybe 3 years, so many teams are rethinking their roster. Outside of the warriors how many teams have a pretty set roster for next year? I think many players that you never thought would be available will turn up on the market. Jordan from the clippers, westbrook, even davis in NO. Danny has LOTS of chips to play if someone of this magnitude comes available. The trend with the stars, seems to be that they will give up some money if they can win a ring. NOT SAYING any of these guys will be available, but lots of turmoil out there. Brad has the Celtics playing team ball . Playing d and passing. Whatever changes they make I think they will fall into this mind set. Do not think butler or George get Danny to the promise land which comes in 2 or 3 years. Lastly, it will be interesting to see if fultz and simmons are winners or just look good on the roster. Their results in college kind of muddy the waters for me.
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Post by ctfisher on Jun 20, 2017 8:37:50 GMT -5
Jackson and Tatum are both really good players. I would be happy with either. While Jackson has a higher ceiling, Tatum has the higher floor. Outside of Fultz, Tatum has the second highest floor in top 5. The only thing is that most reports say the Suns want Fox, not Jackson. It's why Kings want to jump to 3 to get Fox. Danny always airs on the side of upside imo. The Jeff Greene pick and the Brown picks are great examples of this. I do think the Celtics would take Tatum at number three though if Jackson is off the table. It all depends on what the Lakers do actually. The Lakers have a great chance to pee in the Celtics pool with the Jackson scenario. If the Suns truly want Jackson, they could trade up with the Lakers and take the 2 pick and take Jackson. The Lakers might do this because they could feel they might still get Ball at number 4 with the Suns pick. I'm not totally sure the Lakers would want to strengthen the Suns in the western conference however. I do think this is the reason why the Celtics are working out Tatum though. Jeff green isn't exactly a great example there given we made that pick for Seattle at the time. I'd also say that smart is an example of a high floor pick rather than a high ceiling, and on top of that we took Kelly olynyk the pick or maybe 2 picks before Giannis antetokounpo (however you spell that). Danny has been a very good draft gm, but I don't buy the narrative that he always goes upside over everything else - there's plenty of examples of him passing on big upside guys for players he thought had a clear fit on the roster |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 20, 2017 8:44:52 GMT -5
Also wouldn't Jackson have a higher floor than Tatum as a guy who at worst can probably be a Shumpert type?
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 20, 2017 9:22:51 GMT -5
Sam Vecenie thinks that Tatum is the Celtics guy and another reporter made mention that whenever he spoke to Celtics front office people when they spoke about Tatum their tone changed...
Per Vecenie: Important to note that Tatum's last 12 games in college were on another level and that he was slowed early in the year and missed preseason due to a foot injury.
Also, and incredibly hard worker and dedicated to things off the court ala Jaylen Brown. Seems like an Ainge guy.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 20, 2017 9:35:16 GMT -5
The way I kind of look at it is Fultz could be a superstar and Tatum could be a star and that's why I don't like it today but come next year if that Lakers pick is the second pick then I could feel differently depending on how that draft is.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 20, 2017 10:07:18 GMT -5
Woj reporting that Knicks aren't ruling out trading Porzingis. What would you be willing to give up?
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Post by jmei on Jun 20, 2017 10:46:49 GMT -5
Late to the party, but...
-I suspect the reason they announced the trade when they did (as opposed to immediately before/after the draft) is that Fultz wasn't going to meet with the 76ers when they were picking at 3 and the 76ers wanted to at least leak the trade discussions to cajole Fultz into meeting with them before they finalized the trade.
-This trade is a bet that whoever Ainge ends up drafting is at least on the same tier as Fultz. If Danny is sure that Tatum/Jackson/etc. is just as good as Fultz, it makes perfect sense. It's a gutsy call. Ainge is certainly not afraid to take a risk.
-The protections on the Lakers and SAC/PHI pick are interesting. Ainge is trying to guarantee that the pick is as good as possible. Looks like the cost of doing so was that he had to give up the possibility of getting the #1 pick. Still, the odds are pretty likely that Boston ends up with a lottery pick out of it, and potentially a high lottery pick. There's risk in both directions. You can bet that Zarren and the rest of the stat guys in the front office ran some simulations and are happy with those odds.
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