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2017 Celtics offseason
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 7, 2017 13:27:41 GMT -5
No offense taken I simply said "it wouldn't surprise me if...". Wasn't a prediction. I do think it's worth discussing the possibilities though. You like context. Right now we have to assume the roster locks are: 1. IT 2. Smart 3. Rozier 4. Brown 5. Tatum 6. Crowder 7. Hayward 8. Horford 9. Morris 10. Zizic 11. Yabusele 12. Theis That leaves 3 spots. Nader and Ojeleye are in the mix, plus you think Allen is and you want a veteran rebounder and what you call a "true guard that can shoot". I agree on the veteran rebounding big. What I don't see is giving up Nader or Ojeleye for that guard you speak of. If Thomas goes down for a period during the regular season you can survive with Rozier and Smart as the primary ball-handlers. Remember when Bradley was out it was Brown who took his starting spot last year not smart or Terry. Hayward will also see time in that type of roll. Idk what's going to happen but right now I see one open spot and I want that to go to a big. That roster makes no sense. It screams please make another trade. I can't see us adding both Nader and Ojeleye to Crowder, Brown, Tatum, and Hayward. I like both Nader and Ojeleye, but that's why I wanted Bell. It would have helped the Roster construction and fixed our biggest need. Allen or some other guard has to be in play. No way they only carry 3 true guards. A couple of injuries, and what you are going to have Brown being a primary ball handler? Come on the Summer league showed he is not even close to ready for that. So either a guy like Theis doesn't make the team or they need to trade someone. Otherwise we are going to be the worst rebounding team in the league next year. We also won't be able to stop anyone from driving to the rim, yet again. I don't understand how we went from talking about a fourth guard to rebounding. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 7, 2017 13:34:07 GMT -5
Yeap, penetration to the rim and rebounding is going to be the Achilles heel for this team all season long and will probably be the reason they lose this year.
Thomas certainly can't stop anyone going to the rim, Bradley helped in this regard.
Too many wing players, not enough big men on this team.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 7, 2017 13:37:59 GMT -5
That roster makes no sense. It screams please make another trade. I can't see us adding both Nader and Ojeleye to Crowder, Brown, Tatum, and Hayward. I like both Nader and Ojeleye, but that's why I wanted Bell. It would have helped the Roster construction and fixed our biggest need. Allen or some other guard has to be in play. No way they only carry 3 true guards. A couple of injuries, and what you are going to have Brown being a primary ball handler? Come on the Summer league showed he is not even close to ready for that. So either a guy like Theis doesn't make the team or they need to trade someone. Otherwise we are going to be the worst rebounding team in the league next year. We also won't be able to stop anyone from driving to the rim, yet again. I don't understand how we went from talking about a fourth guard to rebounding. What? You clearly were just talking about both. Making it sound like the choice is a rebounder or 4th guard. So we can keep Nader and Ojeleye. For me it's simple you get a rebounder and guard. One of Nader or Ojeleye doesn't make team or a guy like Theis doesn't. You have to keep a 4th guard and a player like Green wouldn't fit because his handle is shaky at best. Crawford would work. The roster construction has two many SFs on it. Sure Crowder, Tatum and Ojeleye should be able to play small ball PFs. Still if you want Nader on team, then sign Ojeleye to a 2 way contract and park him in D league for a year. I don't see how he gets any minutes this year anyway. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 7, 2017 13:47:21 GMT -5
Let's agree not to go back and dissect what each of us said and derail what could be a legitimate conversation. What I tried to convey is that I agree on adding a big and disagree on the 4th guard. Keeping Nader and Ojeleye over a guy like Green doesn't have anything to do with rebounding.
I just fail to see how Green is a real need or what he has to do with losing Thomas. He's not a ball handler any more than Hayward is.
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Post by ctfisher on Jul 7, 2017 13:52:38 GMT -5
Nadar looks like a guy who can play the 2 and looks like he can shoot. Can he? He is a big guy and isn't a great athlete. Not sure he can play SG. Been trying to find a scouting report but can't. Not sure about lateral quickness, but check his d-league and Iowa state highlights - he's pretty explosive vertically. He's probably a little heftier than most NBA 2 guards but I think he'd be perfectly capable of sticking with average 2 guards and his length might bother them as well/make up for any shortcomings in foot speed/quickness he might have (although offensively he looks like he has good footwork and a relatively quick first step so I'd be optimistic myself) |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 7, 2017 13:53:38 GMT -5
I'm still hoping for another trade leading to a big man like Umass said.
They literally have 7 players who have a similar skill set in Morris, Crowder, Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Yabu, and Semi.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 7, 2017 13:55:03 GMT -5
www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/morrima03.htmlHe is a bad rebounder for his career, not just in Detriot. It wasn't Drummond, it's he's a bad rebounder. For a PF he is about as bad as it gets. He will not even come close to rebounding like KO or Johnson, nevermind be better. Look at the numbers. It's a big downgrade. Thing is, he wasn't used as a PF most of the time, he played heavy minutes as a 3. I'm not saying he solves the issues Boston had with rebounding, but he's a good player. Danny got a good return for what is essentially a rental in AB, one that we wouldn't keep, and he did that by having no leverage whatsoever because everyone in the league knew he had to make a move. There were talks about him giving up Crowder for free to the Jazz. He kept Crowder, the IMO superior player on a better contract, and actually got a piece out the whole situation. It's not perfect, but it's honestly as good as you could have hoped for. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 7, 2017 14:03:01 GMT -5
Let's agree not to go back and dissect what each of us said and derail what could be a legitimate conversation. What I tried to convey is that I agree on adding a big and disagree on the 4th guard. Keeping Nader and Ojeleye over a guy like Green doesn't have anything to do with rebounding. I just fail to see how Green is a real need or what he has to do with losing Thomas. He's not a ball handler any more than Hayward is. You don't keep Green if that's your final roster construction. You need another ball handler like Allen or maybe a guy like Crawford that has played PG some in his career. The thing is who would help you more next year Green, Nader or Ojeleye? Without a trade or a bunch of injuries Nader and Ojeleye would be the new Jackson and Mickey. Guys that never get off the bench. Green could help you more in a 5th guard role, than having a 5th and 6th SF would. It probably won't happen but trading Crowder for lets say Chandler fixes a lot of issues on this team. Or maybe a WCS. By removing Bradley we got a useful big, but haven't solved our logjam at SF. I just don't see how Hayward, Crowder, Tatum and Brown get the minutes they need. Even if Hayward plays SG full-time which I don't see happening, there just aren't enough minutes. |
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,862
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Post by wcp3 on Jul 7, 2017 14:04:15 GMT -5
I'm still hoping for another trade leading to a big man like Umass said. They literally have 7 players who have a similar skill set in Morris, Crowder, Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Yabu, and Semi. They have some cap space left. Barring an unexpected Crawford signing, I expect that money to go to a rebounding big. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 7, 2017 14:08:11 GMT -5
I'm still hoping for another trade leading to a big man like Umass said. They literally have 7 players who have a similar skill set in Morris, Crowder, Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Yabu, and Semi. They have some cap space left. Barring an unexpected Crawford signing, I expect that money to go to a rebounding big. All they got left after they sign Yabu hopefully is maybe a million or two dollars under the cap. All they can use to sign a guy is the 4.4 million dollar exception they have now. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 7, 2017 14:10:48 GMT -5
I'm fine with trading Crowder for a big if that's what goes down but if we don't see enough minutes for Crowder, Tatum, Brown and Hayward as is then why is Green even important?
I'm not holding onto Nader and Semi for next year, I'm holding on to them for down the road. This team likely isn't winning a title next year and if things fall into place for them to maybe do that then Green wasn't a big part of that.
Nothing wrong with Semi and Nader being 14th and 15th guys.
Theis is the one I cannot comment on at all because I know basically next to nothing on him.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 7, 2017 14:11:42 GMT -5
www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/morrima03.htmlHe is a bad rebounder for his career, not just in Detriot. It wasn't Drummond, it's he's a bad rebounder. For a PF he is about as bad as it gets. He will not even come close to rebounding like KO or Johnson, nevermind be better. Look at the numbers. It's a big downgrade. Thing is, he wasn't used as a PF most of the time, he played heavy minutes as a 3. I'm not saying he solves the issues Boston had with rebounding, but he's a good player. Danny got a good return for what is essentially a rental in AB, one that we wouldn't keep, and he did that by having no leverage whatsoever because everyone in the league knew he had to make a move. There were talks about him giving up Crowder for free to the Jazz. He kept Crowder, the IMO superior player on a better contract, and actually got a piece out the whole situation. It's not perfect, but it's honestly as good as you could have hoped for. He is a good player. A good defender that can shoot the 3 ball and doesn't rebound. He'll fit right in. I don't hate the trade, but he is a bad rebounder. A guy with his size should have had a big advantage rebounding playing SF he didn't. He has also played a ton of PF in this league. Compared to KO and Johnson he is a major downgrade in rebounding. People liked to hate on KO, can't wait to hear what they say about Morris and his rebounding. To but this in perspective, Crowder has better rebounding numbers than Morris. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 7, 2017 14:19:24 GMT -5
I'm fine with trading Crowder for a big if that's what goes down but if we don't see enough minutes for Crowder, Tatum, Brown and Hayward as is then why is Green even important? I'm not holding onto Nader and Semi for next year, I'm holding on to them for down the road. This team likely isn't winning a title next year and if things fall into place for them to maybe do that then Green wasn't a big part of that. Nothing wrong with Semi and Nader being 14th and 15th guys. Theis is the one I cannot comment on at all because I know basically next to nothing on him. The thing is the log jam won't go away for 3 years. So something needs to give. Green is a weapon off bench. A guy that can not play for 15 games and come out and give you instant offense. That's a great thing for your bench. Ojeleye and Nader need playing time to develop. Green proved his worth in playoffs. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 7, 2017 14:44:04 GMT -5
Well at least my Vucevic dream is still alive with Crowder and Morris could match salaries in a trade with the Magic. Just saying lol.
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Post by texs31 on Jul 7, 2017 14:54:45 GMT -5
I'd say we're looking at:
Ball Handlers - Thomas, Smart and Rozier
Wings - Hayward, Crowder, Tatum, Brown, Ojeleye
Bigs - Horford, Morris, Zizic, Yabusele, Theis
Morris actual would fit better into the "swing" category but based on Stevens comments, he groups into these 3 (not sure if he can guard 2s so I'm putting him there for now - if you want him as a wing instead of a big, I won't argue).
That's 13.
Hopefully, you're looking at a big signed with the RME (but, as said above, is anyone good going to take that or is it a minimum guy)
Nader and Jackson would fight over the 15th spot. Allen and Bird would occupy 16 and 17 (which are the new 2-way contracts)
I could still see another move coming but at the Celtics terms (instead of being forced into a deal to get Hayward in). Crowder still seems like a logical candidate if they can get the value.
Having both Smart and Rozier might be considered surplus as ball handlers (especially if you consider Hayward and, even, Tatum having that ability as some reports have suggested).
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Post by tizzle on Jul 7, 2017 14:56:46 GMT -5
They had to make a move to create room for Hayward, obviously. And that's the most important thing. And one of those three Gs wasn't going to be re-signed, and there was just no way it would be IT. I'd rather it be Bradley than Smart because Smart is bigger and younger. I can see Smart being a real nice starter/6th man on the next great Celtics team of the future with Tatum, Brown, the BKN pick and the LAL/SAC pick. And we get to bring Yabusele onboard now, which is a positive.
So I'm happy with trading Bradley, in spite of really liking him as a player.
That said, this trade still ranks as a big disappointment. Rebounding is our biggest issue, and making Morris part of our rotation makes us worse in that department (amazingly, Bradley even beat him by more than a rebound per gam). That's not a good trade. A good trade might not have brought a better player but it would have brought on a better fit.
We should have done better.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 7, 2017 14:59:06 GMT -5
Guys develop in many ways. The majority of these guys coming out of college aren't ready to play right away they develop by practicing - working out - and playing in the G league. Over 40% of the players now in the NBA played in that league. Yes, I know when you are playing in the G league you cannot practice with the big squad but that's one of the reasons why they shuttle guys (like Jackson last year) back and forth.
Guys also get PT by filling in during injures etc.
I agree Green is a nice piece for all the reasons you stated. I guess where I differ is I see too much potential in those other guys to care about the role Green played last year for this year. If we need a guy like him again, I'd rather sink or swim with guys like Rozier, Brown and Tatum filling that role - a role I hope the Heyward addition eliminates a need for.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,862
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Post by wcp3 on Jul 7, 2017 14:59:58 GMT -5
I'd say we're looking at: Ball Handlers - Thomas, Smart and Rozier Wings - Hayward, Crowder, Tatum, Brown, Ojeleye Bigs - Horford, Morris, Zizic, Yabusele, Theis Morris actual would fit better into the "swing" category but based on Stevens comments, he groups into these 3 (not sure if he can guard 2s so I'm putting him there for now - if you want him as a wing instead of a big, I won't argue). That's 13. Hopefully, you're looking at a big signed with the RME (but, as said above, is anyone good going to take that or is it a minimum guy) Nader and Jackson would fight over the 15th spot. Allen and Bird would occupy 16 and 17 (which are the new 2-way contracts) I could still see another move coming but at the Celtics terms (instead of being forced into a deal to get Hayward in). Crowder still seems like a logical candidate if they can get the value. Having both Smart and Rozier might be considered surplus as ball handlers (especially if you consider Hayward and, even, Tatum having that ability as some reports have suggested). I'm with you on Crowder, but if he goes I think it'd be as part of a larger deal. The Celtics have been able to hang onto all of their most valuable trade chips. Bradley isn't included in that because of his contract. I don't think the Celts make another big move this offseason, but they all their ammo left if/when a star becomes available. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 7, 2017 15:14:56 GMT -5
I'm still hoping for another trade leading to a big man like Umass said. They literally have 7 players who have a similar skill set in Morris, Crowder, Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Yabu, and Semi. I would just caution you that the fact they are all in the 6-7 to 6-9 range does NOT mean they have similar skill sets. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 7, 2017 15:20:04 GMT -5
On Morris' rebounding, I'd also add that Bradley went from under 3 RPG to over 6 RPG . . . because they designed it that way.
They COULD put Morris in position to get more rebounds. Not saying they will. Not saying that he'll get the boards when he's put in that position. Just cautioning on looking at the numbers only.
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Post by tizzle on Jul 7, 2017 15:27:58 GMT -5
I'm still hoping for another trade leading to a big man like Umass said. They literally have 7 players who have a similar skill set in Morris, Crowder, Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Yabu, and Semi. I would just caution you that the fact they are all in the 6-7 to 6-9 range does NOT mean they have similar skill sets. "similar skill sets" isn't accurate. But none of those 7 are ball handlers or rim protectors so they're really competing for playing time with each other. Which is the bigger point. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 7, 2017 15:29:18 GMT -5
Disgree on Hayward and, someday, Tatum.
For now, just focusing on Hayward (since it's not the projection that Tatum is) I think you're going to see a LOT of him with the ball in his hands.
Rim protection, I'd agree with.
EDIT: And I wouldn't worry about Yabusele and Semi right now. IF they are getting playing time it's because something awesome (they are the steals of their respective drafts and way better than imagined) or something terrible (someone in front of them got hurt) has happened.
For now, I wouldn't pencil them in for anything more than single-digit MPGs (and time in the D-League - I'm just not ready to say G-League yet)
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Post by tizzle on Jul 7, 2017 15:29:41 GMT -5
On Morris' rebounding, I'd also add that Bradley went from under 3 RPG to over 6 RPG . . . because they designed it that way. They COULD put Morris in position to get more rebounds. Not saying they will. Not saying that he'll get the boards when he's put in that position. Just cautioning on looking at the numbers only. My line about Bradley getting more rebounds was a throwaway, not any kind of major point. The point is that Morris has always been a bad rebounder, and we're adding him to a poor rebounding team. Hopefully there is another move coming. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 7, 2017 15:35:43 GMT -5
Oh I think they SHOULD add rebounding and rim protection, for sure.
But just bc he has low numbers for a 6-9 guy doesn't mean that Stevens won't design a scheme that increases his rebounding numbers.
What happened with Bradley was a real thing. They set it up so he'd get a lot.
EDIT - Just realized that you thought I was addressing your comment about Bradley getting more rebounds. I actually wasn't. Just pointing out they COULD set up a scheme that increases Morris' rebounds as they did Bradley.
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Post by tizzle on Jul 7, 2017 15:53:32 GMT -5
Disgree on Hayward and, someday, Tatum. For now, just focusing on Hayward (since it's not the projection that Tatum is) I think you're going to see a LOT of him with the ball in his hands. Rim protection, I'd agree with. I was trying to short-hand what these guys are, which is mostly limited to being 3s and 4s. You can play some small ball lineups with them, but you should limit it because they're not rim protectors. Likewise, you can play some minutes with one of them at the 2, but none of them are pure Gs, so I'm not sure how wise it is to do that too much. So, as I say, they are really competing for only so many minutes. And, to the extent you can expand those minutes, I'm not sure how great an idea that is. I mean, is it the value in minutes for Morris or Crowder worth forcing one of them into the 5 spot, or Hayward in at the 2? |
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