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2017 Celtics offseason
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 8, 2017 7:40:45 GMT -5
I have no problem paying IT the max for 3 years. Anything beyond that isn't ideal.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 8, 2017 7:53:49 GMT -5
Yes we should look at how he uses and groups players but by the way they are talking they look at Hayward, Tatum and even Brown as ball handlers the way you look at Bradley as one. Agree or disagree that seems to be how they look at it. I need a definition of what Brad thinks makes up a ball handler if those 3 are considered ball handlers. Brown a ball handler? I just don't see it. I think that proves just how silly Brad's terms are when it comes to roster building. He can use whatever terms he wants when coaching. I'm just glad Danny clearly doesn't do the same thing. I'm just trying to piece it together based on things I've listened to them both say. I think they would look at him as a secondary ball-handler on the court. Bradley was never a primary ball handler but he can dribble the ball up the court at times. In the NBA teams don't full court press and trap all that often - they will in spurts and that's easy enough to substitute around so I think they feel 90% of the game it really doesn't matter who's on the court to bring the ball up. It's way more important the 5 guys who are there to: 1. Play in the offensive half court 2. Run in transition 3. Match up on defense Not sure why you think Danny and Brad don't agree. I'm not saying they do but I don't see how you can be so confident he doesn't. We seem to be in the middle of a compete evolution of how a roster is constructed. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 8, 2017 7:59:25 GMT -5
I'm not too worried about Jeff Green the guy has done nothing for years and he's going to be 31 this year. My guess is he drives LeBron nuts with his lazy play. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 8, 2017 8:01:11 GMT -5
I have no problem paying IT the max for 3 years. Anything beyond that isn't ideal. He's getting max money. He literally just said yesterday "I'm a max guy". They've known that and recruited players using him. He will be here for a 3-4 year max deal which is fine as long as it's not a reason they don't sign other people. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 8, 2017 8:03:40 GMT -5
Yes we should look at how he uses and groups players but by the way they are talking they look at Hayward, Tatum and even Brown as ball handlers the way you look at Bradley as one. Agree or disagree that seems to be how they look at it. I need a definition of what Brad thinks makes up a ball handler if those 3 are considered ball handlers. Brown a ball handler? I just don't see it. I think that proves just how silly Brad's terms are when it comes to roster building. He can use whatever terms he wants when coaching. I'm just glad Danny clearly doesn't do the same thing. By the way I'm sure he considered Brown a wing first and foremost but I know he thinks he can handle the ball considering he's talked about it along with Tatum. Again, I don't think he means as the primary guy. Hayward, I do think he thinks they could run a lineup with him at the "point" for small periods of time. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 8, 2017 8:09:49 GMT -5
Not sure why it's silly. The best team in the world this year was lead in assists by a guy who plays the tradiational 4 and 5 spots and was lead in blocks by a guy who spent a significant chunk of his time playing the traditional 3.
The traditional positions and what they do have changed. It only matters that you have 5 guys with a mix of skills that you need and can cover the 5 guys against you.
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Post by ryan24 on Jul 8, 2017 10:10:49 GMT -5
Not sure why it's silly. The best team in the world this year was lead in assists by a guy who plays the tradiational 4 and 5 spots and was lead in blocks by a guy who spent a significant chunk of his time playing the traditional 3. The traditional positions and what they do have changed. It only matters that you have 5 guys with a mix of skills that you need and can cover the 5 guys against you. Yup totally agree with that. All that matters is that your guys score at least one more point than the other guys.If you give up 4 more points a game because you lost Bradley and maybe crowder, but score 6 more points a game with the addition of Hayward and tatum then I guess it is all good. BUT, like pedro said earlier, rebound the ball. I like the suggestion that we pay IT the max for 3 yrs. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 8, 2017 10:16:29 GMT -5
www.celticshub.com/2017/07/08/celtics-post-hayward-roster-cap-review/Good summary of where things stand and what type of things could be next. What I hadn't considered in the Crowder discussion was the idea of turning around and flipping Morris. Give what's likely available, his 2 year contract could, in theory, get you a big man version of Avery Bradley. I'm not sure how long you'd have to wait to aggregate his salary. The new cba helps in that, depending on the outgoing salary, a match is upwards of 175% + 100k. EDIT - So I just asked Ryan and he said, bc they were under the cap when the deal was made, there is no waiting period. They can combine Morris' salary immediately.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 8, 2017 11:08:34 GMT -5
I need a definition of what Brad thinks makes up a ball handler if those 3 are considered ball handlers. Brown a ball handler? I just don't see it. I think that proves just how silly Brad's terms are when it comes to roster building. He can use whatever terms he wants when coaching. I'm just glad Danny clearly doesn't do the same thing. I'm just trying to piece it together based on things I've listened to them both say. I think they would look at him as a secondary ball-handler on the court. Bradley was never a primary ball handler but he can dribble the ball up the court at times. In the NBA teams don't full court press and trap all that often - they will in spurts and that's easy enough to substitute around so I think they feel 90% of the game it really doesn't matter who's on the court to bring the ball up. It's way more important the 5 guys who are there to: 1. Play in the offensive half court 2. Run in transition 3. Match up on defense Not sure why you think Danny and Brad don't agree. I'm not saying they do but I don't see how you can be so confident he doesn't. We seem to be in the middle of a compete evolution of how a roster is constructed. For all the talk about only 3 types of players. The first thing you do is breakdown ball handlers into two sub groups. Which makes sense, but also means there really isn't only 3 groups of players. Calling Thomas, Smart and Rozier primary ball handlers and Hayward a secondary ball handler makes sense. I'm sure Hayward can run the offense at times like Pierce used to. I haven't seen enough of Tatum to make that call yet. Brown I don't see how he is a ball handler. He doesn't yet have a great handle and isn't a good passer. How is Brown a ball handler and Crowder isn't? Right now I would trust Crowder to run the offense over Brown. You can't build a team off only 3 types of players. It just doesn't work. Danny clearly doesn't think that way. He brings in talent that fits in a more traditional sense, but also fits Brads system. When we are talking roster construction, there is no reason to keep bring up the way Brad groups players to form lineups. In Brads mind bigs are bigs. Thing is Zizic has the skills of a center and Yabu that of a PF. They are both bigs, but Danny is bringing in guys with the right skill sets that fit more traditional positions. Then he lets Brad do his thing. |
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Post by sarasoxer on Jul 8, 2017 11:14:45 GMT -5
www.celticshub.com/2017/07/08/celtics-post-hayward-roster-cap-review/Good summary of where things stand and what type of things could be next. What I hadn't considered in the Crowder discussion was the idea of turning around and flipping Morris. Give what's likely available, his 2 year contract could, in theory, get you a big man version of Avery Bradley. I'm not sure how long you'd have to wait to aggregate his salary. The new cba helps in that, depending on the outgoing salary, a match is upwards of 175% + 100k. EDIT - So I just asked Ryan and he said, bc they were under the cap when the deal was made, there is no waiting period. They can combine Morris' salary immediately. Fantastic article...Thanks!! |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 8, 2017 11:24:38 GMT -5
Not sure why it's silly. The best team in the world this year was lead in assists by a guy who plays the tradiational 4 and 5 spots and was lead in blocks by a guy who spent a significant chunk of his time playing the traditional 3. The traditional positions and what they do have changed. It only matters that you have 5 guys with a mix of skills that you need and can cover the 5 guys against you. The Warriors started a traditional line up. They started a C, PF, SF, SG and PG. There was no crazy starting lineup. They would go small ball like the whole league does now. Look at there roster it's built the traditional way. They have the size at PF and C that we didn't last year. They were the best team because of talent, not some crazy new age way to build a roster. They weren't playing 4 SFs on the court at the same time. Look at Cleveland, it's a traditional roster. Built in a traditional way. Both of those teams could play with a traditional lineup and a small ball ones. They could go big and small with a bunch of different lineups. The Celtics couldn't. We didn't have the bigs to match up with other teams. So if you want to compare us to the two best teams in league, we have a huge need. A rebounding defensive big. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 8, 2017 12:15:23 GMT -5
Not arguing about that being a need. Agree 100%. Also not suggesting that GS didn't have a starting lineup with guys that "looked like" they played the traditional roles. But Green, Giannis, often Lebron, etc run their offenses for significant periods time.
Listen, if people want to spend the time labeling players, I'm not going to take the time to stop you.
I'm just happy we have a coach and GM that worries about the combined skills of the 5 on the court at any given time than what to call them.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 8, 2017 12:21:20 GMT -5
www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2017/07/bulpett_danny_ainge_probably_not_done_wheeling_and_dealing"Brad is very much involved in all that we do,” said Ainge. “We talk all the time, so I think we know how we think it will all fit." --------------------- Ainge continues to acknowledge that rebounding is still an issue for his club, and he is interested to see if Zizic and/or Yabusele can develop quickly enough to have an impact in that area. “They’re both young and from foreign countries and don’t even speak the language perfectly,” Ainge said, “but, yeah, I think they have a chance to add to our rebounding. “But so do I think, Jaylen (Brown) and Jayson Tatum. I think both of those guys are outstanding rebounders. You know, everyone just assumes rebounding is you go get a center who can rebound and then all your problems are solved. That certainly can help, but a lot of times that creates problems on the other end, unless that guy is really, really skilled. Then you have Shaquille O’Neal or Wilt Chamberlain.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 8, 2017 13:10:47 GMT -5
I don't really care what they call them, but this team is lacking in a bunch of different areas. Rebounding is a big one, but rim protector has to be just as big of a need if not bigger. They also need nedd a player that can be a primary ball handler and shoot the ball.
I find it very funny Danny loves guards that can't shoot, but doesn't want a center that can't shoot. I mean Bell is the Smart, Rozier, Rondo, Allen of centers. He just seemed like a perfect fit. Instead we got Ojeleye who I like, but he has Crowder, Tatum, Brown, Hayward and Nader before him. You wonder why agents didn't want there players going to Celtics.
It seems everyone forgets that without a Rondo injury, we would have likely lost in first round of playoffs due to our lack of rebounding and rim protection. Can't wait for another year where the Robin Lopez of the NBA just dominant the paint against the Celtics. Or when everyone and there brothers gets easy layups against us.
So far this is just like last year, a very flawed roster. The talent level has increased, but it's flawed.
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Post by artfuldodger on Jul 8, 2017 13:25:58 GMT -5
www.celticshub.com/2017/07/08/celtics-post-hayward-roster-cap-review/Good summary of where things stand and what type of things could be next. What I hadn't considered in the Crowder discussion was the idea of turning around and flipping Morris. Give what's likely available, his 2 year contract could, in theory, get you a big man version of Avery Bradley. I'm not sure how long you'd have to wait to aggregate his salary. The new cba helps in that, depending on the outgoing salary, a match is upwards of 175% + 100k. EDIT - So I just asked Ryan and he said, bc they were under the cap when the deal was made, there is no waiting period. They can combine Morris' salary immediately. Fantastic article...Thanks!! The celticshub article is excellent. However, if you plug any of the 3 bigs suggested in a straight trade for Morris into the ESPN trade machine there is no change in expected wins. If you plug Okafor into the trade machine in a straight trade for Morris, the Celtics do gain expected wins. What do people think of Okakfor. |
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Post by ryan24 on Jul 8, 2017 15:34:55 GMT -5
I'm just trying to piece it together based on things I've listened to them both say. I think they would look at him as a secondary ball-handler on the court. Bradley was never a primary ball handler but he can dribble the ball up the court at times. In the NBA teams don't full court press and trap all that often - they will in spurts and that's easy enough to substitute around so I think they feel 90% of the game it really doesn't matter who's on the court to bring the ball up. It's way more important the 5 guys who are there to: 1. Play in the offensive half court 2. Run in transition 3. Match up on defense Not sure why you think Danny and Brad don't agree. I'm not saying they do but I don't see how you can be so confident he doesn't. We seem to be in the middle of a compete evolution of how a roster is constructed. For all the talk about only 3 types of players. The first thing you do is breakdown ball handlers into two sub groups. Which makes sense, but also means there really isn't only 3 groups of players. Calling Thomas, Smart and Rozier primary ball handlers and Hayward a secondary ball handler makes sense. I'm sure Hayward can run the offense at times like Pierce used to. I haven't seen enough of Tatum to make that call yet. Brown I don't see how he is a ball handler. He doesn't yet have a great handle and isn't a good passer. How is Brown a ball handler and Crowder isn't? Right now I would trust Crowder to run the offense over Brown. You can't build a team off only 3 types of players. It just doesn't work. Danny clearly doesn't think that way. He brings in talent that fits in a more traditional sense, but also fits Brads system. When we are talking roster construction, there is no reason to keep bring up the way Brad groups players to form lineups. In Brads mind bigs are bigs. Thing is Zizic has the skills of a center and Yabu that of a PF. They are both bigs, but Danny is bringing in guys with the right skill sets that fit more traditional positions. Then he lets Brad do his thing. very interesting comments. We are still hung up on Brad's name tags. I agree Danny brings in players and Brad figures out where they play in his system. I am convinced that the board AT THIS POINT, may be a little overboard on brown and his rate of success. Freak of an athlete, but lacking in ball skills and lacking in scoring skills So far. having watched Tatum several times over the last year including twice this week , he is way ahead of brown on offense and maybe about even on defense. I think now Brown is probably 4th on the list behind Hayward, Crowder and tatum. he is ahead of ojelye but not on offensive side of the ball.. pedro says it best we still HAVE to rebound. Forget about name tags. |
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Post by ryan24 on Jul 8, 2017 15:37:17 GMT -5
Not sure why it's silly. The best team in the world this year was lead in assists by a guy who plays the tradiational 4 and 5 spots and was lead in blocks by a guy who spent a significant chunk of his time playing the traditional 3. The traditional positions and what they do have changed. It only matters that you have 5 guys with a mix of skills that you need and can cover the 5 guys against you. The Warriors started a traditional line up. They started a C, PF, SF, SG and PG. There was no crazy starting lineup. They would go small ball like the whole league does now. Look at there roster it's built the traditional way. They have the size at PF and C that we didn't last year. They were the best team because of talent, not some crazy new age way to build a roster. They weren't playing 4 SFs on the court at the same time. Look at Cleveland, it's a traditional roster. Built in a traditional way. Both of those teams could play with a traditional lineup and a small ball ones. They could go big and small with a bunch of different lineups. The Celtics couldn't. We didn't have the bigs to match up with other teams. So if you want to compare us to the two best teams in league, we have a huge need. A rebounding defensive big. Absolutely with out a doubt agree with that. rebounding. |
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Post by ryan24 on Jul 8, 2017 15:39:46 GMT -5
www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2017/07/bulpett_danny_ainge_probably_not_done_wheeling_and_dealing"Brad is very much involved in all that we do,” said Ainge. “We talk all the time, so I think we know how we think it will all fit." --------------------- Ainge continues to acknowledge that rebounding is still an issue for his club, and he is interested to see if Zizic and/or Yabusele can develop quickly enough to have an impact in that area. “They’re both young and from foreign countries and don’t even speak the language perfectly,” Ainge said, “but, yeah, I think they have a chance to add to our rebounding. “But so do I think, Jaylen (Brown) and Jayson Tatum. I think both of those guys are outstanding rebounders. You know, everyone just assumes rebounding is you go get a center who can rebound and then all your problems are solved. That certainly can help, but a lot of times that creates problems on the other end, unless that guy is really, really skilled. Then you have Shaquille O’Neal or Wilt Chamberlain. Certainly should help the rebounding with Brown, Tatum and Hayward playing lots of minutes. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 8, 2017 16:15:00 GMT -5
Aron Bynes was mentioned as a possible pickup. More of a backup guy.
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Post by texs31 on Jul 8, 2017 17:45:43 GMT -5
Looks like Crawford is about to sign in Minnesota
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 9, 2017 4:24:45 GMT -5
www.weei.com/blogs/weei/danny-ainge-were-not-comfortable-yetFor what it's worth, Danny Ainge doesn't like the roster yet either. There should be a trade out there somewhere for Ainge to make, assuming teams are willing to trade with Danny (teams are noticing how he has won a lot of trades in recent years and might be gunshy when trying to trade with him).
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 9, 2017 4:48:08 GMT -5
I'm still hoping for another trade leading to a big man like Umass said. They literally have 7 players who have a similar skill set in Morris, Crowder, Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Yabu, and Semi. I would just caution you that the fact they are all in the 6-7 to 6-9 range does NOT mean they have similar skill sets. Skill sets was probably a poor word but looking at the final basic stat lines, you're looking at 5 players who could have a stat line of 12-18 PPG, 20-25 minutes a game, and 4-7 total rebounds a game, and 2-6 assists per game in Tatum, Brown, Crowder, Morris, and Horford (although Horford should get more minutes than that). Hayward should score more than these players but same idea with him too. Just similar players that can do a little bit of everything but not great at one singular thing (leaving defense out of this equation and not including Hayward, who can score). I'd be perfectly happy with this depth and roster and having a lot of players like this but facing some of these big men like Love, Drummon, Anthony Davis, Karl-Anthony Towns, Whiteside, Robin Lopez, DeAndre Jordan, KP, and God knows who else I'm missing out on this list. These players on these teams are going to crush the Celtics on the boards with these players. Not to mention these teams with their best PG will go right after IT to the rim with Bradley now gone unless Smart is starting with IT to help mitigate this a little. I mean, if I'm game planning a attack against the Celtics, it would be pretty easy on paper to do it. Penetrate the rim with IT guarding you and crash the rim for rebounds around the paint when you get inside the paint. The Celtics are in a weird spot with this roster of having plenty of talent, but maybe not enough talent in places of need. That's why a trade needs to happen imo. At least they fixed the second scoring option with Hayward. That was huge. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 9, 2017 7:47:41 GMT -5
Brooklyn using their cap space the way a bad team should. Received a 1st rounder to take on Carroll deal (gave up Hamilton and also received a 2nd)
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 9, 2017 10:26:57 GMT -5
Danny isn't going to be happy with the roster - maybe ever - but certainly not for another year or two. There are going to be holes because the team isn't in the spot to win a title. He likely is more concerned with keeping higher upside guys (Ojeleye and Nader) than adding a veteran that might help this team by a small percentage.
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Post by blucore on Jul 9, 2017 11:21:38 GMT -5
Brooklyn using their cap space the way a bad team should. Received a 1st rounder to take on Carroll deal (gave up Hamilton and also received a 2nd) I like the move for the Nets and it seems like their organization is doing the all right things from a team in their situation. It could be good for the Celtics too because on the court, Carroll hasn't been a good shooter since he left the Hawks and it also puts Brooklyn at only $18.4 million under the cap according to spotrac, so they might be out of the running for KCP as well. |
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