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2018 Boston Celtics offseason
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 19, 2018 13:37:57 GMT -5
Jimmy Butler has officially requested a trade per Shams/Woj/Others. Woj reporting that he's told Minny that he'd prefer LAC/BRK/NYK. Changed to the reflect the spirit of Woj's tweet (originally was that he'd give a list of 1-3 teams he'd be willing to sign an extension with. When the 3 came out, it was "preference"). Rumor season just got a lot more interesting and what a blow to Minnesota. Clippers would help us get that pick! |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 19, 2018 13:44:40 GMT -5
Always thought it was based off of who they guarded (otherwise, wouldn't Al get credit for time at PG). Then again, didn't IT technically guard Markieff Morris against Washington (basically conceding that matchup so they could get better defenders on Wall/Beal). I don't know about other positions, but for myself the PG is the guy taking the ball up the court after a made basket and starting the offense. Horford certainly takes some misses and takes it up the court, but how many times does he act as a PG after a made basket? Maybe a few times a year when teams play full-court at the end of the games. Maybe I'm wrong but those numbers seem to match what I remember seeing on the court. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 19, 2018 14:08:22 GMT -5
Hopefully, Butler doesn’t end up on the Knicks unless that mills their chances of signing Kyrie. I don’t think Kyrie is leaving after this season but nothing that guy does would surprise me and more importantly, I don’t want to listen to it.
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Post by texs31 on Sept 19, 2018 14:20:14 GMT -5
I believe all 3 teams would have a way to trade for Butler while also preserving room. Actually wonder if BRK makes the most sense as I've reard/heard that they are torn on whether to move forward with Russell (RFA next year) or Dinwiddie (who played well last year and is a pending FA).
For example, Russell and a Contract could match Butler and his hold would match Butler's current 2019 salary. So there would be no change to their 2019 projected room and they'd still have around 34M in space (and could get higher too).
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Post by jmei on Sept 19, 2018 14:20:35 GMT -5
The B-R positional designations aren’t meant to provide analytical value. It’s largely based on players’ “official positions” from the preseason media guide with height used as a tiebreaker. It’s not based on tape review or statistical analysis or anything and was never meant to be an analytical stat. If you Google around, there is plenty of discussion of this topic.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 19, 2018 14:45:22 GMT -5
The B-R positional designations aren’t meant to provide analytical value. It’s largely based on players’ “official positions” from the preseason media guide with height used as a tiebreaker. It’s not based on tape review or statistical analysis or anything and was never meant to be an analytical stat. If you Google around, there is plenty of discussion of this topic. Just one question did Rozier play a lot of PG when on the court with Irving? You seem to be arguing the numbers are useless when they showed what actually happened. Those numbers are meant to show what position they played, nothing else. The analytic value is from watching the games and how Irving and Rozier ran the team. I've been saying this all year, before Rozier even took off. You take note because I loved Rozier and our big time acquisition was doing something Thomas never did. I guess I'm just confused trying to bash or discredit numbers when I litterally watched it happen. It can be hard sometimes to tell who is playing what position, but its very easy to see who is bringing the ball up the court after made baskets and starting our offense. |
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Post by texs31 on Sept 19, 2018 19:32:12 GMT -5
Woj reporting that Butler is pushing for LAC. Ability to get him and another FA (Leonard?l while still having good complimentary players would seem to be ideal.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2018 6:35:26 GMT -5
Woj reporting that Butler is pushing for LAC. Ability to get him and another FA (Leonard?l while still having good complimentary players would seem to be ideal. Also, reports are he doesn’t want the Lakers because he doesn’t want to play with LeBron. It’s becoming clear that big stars don’t want to play with LeBron. It’s probably a combination of him being controlling, the center of all things and his age. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2018 6:42:51 GMT -5
Here’s the ESPN top 100. It differs a lot from the SI one. Sports Illustrated does have some of the worst NBA coverage around right now, unfortunately. 82 -- Terry Rozier 55 -- Marcus Smart (unranked by SI) 40 -- Gordon Hayward 37 -- Jaylen Brown 34 -- Al Horford Tatum and Kyrie are clearly both in the top 30. Will be interesting to see where they fall. 7 top 82 and 5 top 40 ain’t bad. 82 -- Terry Rozier 55 -- Marcus Smart (unranked by SI) 40 -- Gordon Hayward 37 -- Jaylen Brown 34 -- Al Horford 24 - Jason Tatum Kyrie top 20 |
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Post by ryan24 on Sept 20, 2018 7:27:36 GMT -5
Here’s the ESPN top 100. It differs a lot from the SI one. Sports Illustrated does have some of the worst NBA coverage around right now, unfortunately. 82 -- Terry Rozier 55 -- Marcus Smart (unranked by SI) 40 -- Gordon Hayward 37 -- Jaylen Brown 34 -- Al Horford Tatum and Kyrie are clearly both in the top 30. Will be interesting to see where they fall. 7 top 82 and 5 top 40 ain’t bad. 82 -- Terry Rozier 55 -- Marcus Smart (unranked by SI) 40 -- Gordon Hayward 37 -- Jaylen Brown 34 -- Al Horford 24 - Jason Tatum Kyrie top 20 Looking at the names here brings me to an interesting situation. Basketball , as umass says, is a TEAM game. GS with Steph and KD have figured out how to share and win the title. Will this group figure out how to share and win, not saying the title just yet. But, they have the potential to do so. Are rozier, horford, and brown going to be frustrated because they do not get enough shots? Paying hayward a lot of money. Do you want him passing the ball. Tatum appears to be the next Celtics superstar. Do you want to stifle his growth? Kyrie, ballhog or team player. With the exception of hayward and horford the rest are all looking for a BIG payday down the road. How does Brad and Danny bring the TEAM together? Not saying this is a bad situation. But I can see, if they do not figure out how to share, I can see crazy Danny moving? rozier, or brown, or probably kyrie. Not necessarily all of them and not giving away any of them. Looking for the RIGHT fit or just continuing the 1st round pick parade. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2018 8:46:23 GMT -5
Is it really a question of Horford, Rozier or Brown will complain about not enough shots? Horford, isn’t even worth addressing. Rozier has gone out if his way to put that question to bed and Brown isn’t a primary scorer.
And yes, you want Hayward to pass; that’s a big part of his game. He’s more a 20 point guy; not a 30.
You’re also missing the main question, which is can this team won a championship. It’s already a known they can win a lot of games.
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Post by texs31 on Sept 20, 2018 10:59:03 GMT -5
I'm not even sure what the expectation for Hayward should be but I can't help feel that his traditional cumulative stats will be "less than expectations" and the people who don't understand basketball will be calling him "Good not Great Gordon" (a nod to "Average Al") while the rest understand how valuable he is in all aspects of the game.
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Post by ctfisher on Sept 20, 2018 11:40:00 GMT -5
Is it really a question of Horford, Rozier or Brown will complain about not enough shots? Horford, isn’t even worth addressing. Rozier has gone out if his way to put that question to bed and Brown isn’t a primary scorer. And yes, you want Hayward to pass; that’s a big part of his game. He’s more a 20 point guy; not a 30. You’re also missing the main question, which is can this team won a championship. It’s already a known they can win a lot of games. I don't really think it'll be an issue, but saying Brown isn't a primary scorer misses the point to me. He's not our primary scorer, but after Kyrie went down last year, he did play that role quite often. Tatum might've been more consistent, but Brown was the youngest Celtic at least in decades, maybe ever, to score 30 in a playoff game and did it twice. I think you have to make sure you get him shots and don't take him for granted, because 2019-2020 is his contract year and he's going to want to get paid like a star wing, not just a good 3 and D/Trevor Ariza type, and likely play a bigger role too |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2018 12:04:12 GMT -5
Is it really a question of Horford, Rozier or Brown will complain about not enough shots? Horford, isn’t even worth addressing. Rozier has gone out if his way to put that question to bed and Brown isn’t a primary scorer. And yes, you want Hayward to pass; that’s a big part of his game. He’s more a 20 point guy; not a 30. You’re also missing the main question, which is can this team won a championship. It’s already a known they can win a lot of games. I don't really think it'll be an issue, but saying Brown isn't a primary scorer misses the point to me. He's not our primary scorer, but after Kyrie went down last year, he did play that role quite often. Tatum might've been more consistent, but Brown was the youngest Celtic at least in decades, maybe ever, to score 30 in a playoff game and did it twice. I think you have to make sure you get him shots and don't take him for granted, because 2019-2020 is his contract year and he's going to want to get paid like a star wing, not just a good 3 and D/Trevor Ariza type, and likely play a bigger role too His shots will be there; he’s just not getting 20 a game. Also, his shots this year or next won’t affect his next contract and he’s really not a free agent until after the 20-21 season. |
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Post by ryan24 on Sept 20, 2018 13:49:48 GMT -5
Is it really a question of Horford, Rozier or Brown will complain about not enough shots? Horford, isn’t even worth addressing. Rozier has gone out if his way to put that question to bed and Brown isn’t a primary scorer. And yes, you want Hayward to pass; that’s a big part of his game. He’s more a 20 point guy; not a 30. You’re also missing the main question, which is can this team won a championship. It’s already a known they can win a lot of games. If this team plays together and stays healthy it has a good chance to win it all. I guess where I am coming from is the chemistry has now changed from the end of last year. Now kyrie is back so does brown and tatum still get the same chances as last year? Brown and Tatum are also affected by the return of hayward. The team dynamics have changed and it will be interesting to see how everything works out. Who starts? Who is on the second unit? Who takes the shots at the end of the game? Who takes, besides smart, the tough wing on defense? Ceiling here is very, very high. Which 5 are on the floor at the end. Big pot of stew with lots of variables as to how good it tastes when its done. Great problem to have. I expect the result will be excellent. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 20, 2018 15:14:21 GMT -5
You can't just dismiss the fact we have so many weapons and how they fit. Which is why I highlighted Irving needing to play team ball. That is how you get the most value out of this roster and make everyone happy. Tatum, Brown, and Rozier all had coming out parties in the postseason. They don't need, nor should they get 20 shots, but they need to be 100% involved. I don't worry about Rozier, he has the ball. He'll get his, but Tatum and Brown need to be used a lot and they need the ball to be fully effective.
You also can't dismiss players wanting to put up stats thinking about getting a contract. This isn't a problem many teams face. So much talent you worry if you can get everyone enough minutes and shots. Even the great Golden State teams never had that problem. They had a bench with older Vets. If you assume they start Baynes and for the most part Stevens usually does that with Baynes and Johnson before him. You have Tatum or Hayward coming off the bench. Then Rozier, Morris, Smart, Semi, and Theis. Rozier, Morris and Smart got over 30 shots a game last year alone.
We have to play like we did in stretches during the playoffs. Full speed every chance we get. Absolutely no walking up the court after a miss unless its the end of a game. We'll have to play a high octane offense when we can like Golden State. Mainly because our half court offense, based off ball movement takes time and limits possessions. It's the only way I see to make most people happy and get the most out of them. If Brown and Tatum are only getting 10 shots a game, we aren't getting full value out of there great talents.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2018 16:01:15 GMT -5
Meh you guys are making problems where they don’t exist. Brown and Tatum are 3 and 4 years away from unrestricted free agency.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 20, 2018 16:16:12 GMT -5
Rjp- Do you honestly think most players think that way? I don't care about stats because I'm X years away from free agency. Nevermind they are eligible for free agency in 2 and 3 years, along with being eligible for extensions in 1 and 2 years. Rozier is currently eligible for an extension after 3 years, like all players and reaches restricted free agency after 4 years. Players like them almost never reach unrestricted free agency. Heck Marcus Smart didn't even do that. You also have to consider if they are thinking about being Super Max players and frankly I have to believe that has crossed their minds.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2018 16:24:26 GMT -5
Rjp- Do you honestly think most players think that way? I don't care about stats because I'm X years away from free agency. Nevermind they are eligible for free agency in 2 and 3 years, along with being eligible for extensions in 1 and 2 years. Rozier is currently eligible for an extension after 3 years, like all players and reaches restricted free agency after 4 years. Players like them almost never reach unrestricted free agency. Heck Marcus Smart didn't even do that. You also have to consider if they are thinking about being Super Max players and frankly I have to believe that has crossed their minds. I honestly don’t think Jason Tatum or Jaylen Brown are concerned about their touches next year. They will get their touches and their love; they seem excited about this team. I doubt they are losing sleep over Supermax money and if they are that means they want to be Celtics so that’s cool . |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2018 16:27:35 GMT -5
And the names Rip now
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 20, 2018 16:36:49 GMT -5
Meh you guys are making problems where they don’t exist. Boston fans in a nutshell. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 20, 2018 17:02:39 GMT -5
Every single player is excited, who wouldn't be? They are on one of the best teams in the league and are the likely picks to win the East. I also don't think anyone is worried right now about anything. That won't happen till games start getting played and we see how this all works. I just don't understand how you can't be worried about touches. Those two didn't get enough until Irving went down last year. Now your adding Hayward and a healthy Irving. We don't have a PG that doesn't like to shoot and guys like Morris who just likes to shoot. This isn't 2008 with 3 great scorers and Perkins and Rondo. That roster fit like a glove, Perkins and Rondo allowing the big three to do there thing.
Your certainly entitled to have the opinion everything will just work itself out, but that just seems like wishing for the best. Sit down look at the roster and figure out minutes and shots. You'll see why some of us for good reason are worried. You have 4 players that all seem to need the ball and a bench filled with guys that like to shoot. Danny hasn't made Stevens job the easiest. Yea its a great problem to have, but its a problem none the less.
I can't wait to see how Boy Wonder addresses it. Who starts, who doesn't. Does he change the offense. Does he shorten the bench. Does Danny makes things easier by making a trade.
I also want to say while adding Jamal Crawford certainly increases our depth. It also would add another guy that takes a ton of shots.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2018 19:32:32 GMT -5
I also don't think anyone is worried right now about anything....I just don't understand how you can't be worried about touches. Not being a jerk but I don’t know how to reply to something like this. No one is worried about anything... how can’t you be worried about this... |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2018 19:39:27 GMT -5
Maybe it’s because I do a lot of coaching, but coaches don’t worry about too much talent or too many options. Stevens is a great coach. Those 80s Celtics and Lakers teams didn’t worry about having too many guys. You know how you fix the problem? If you have that many great scores, then you exploit the matchups and you create more scoring opportunities. You play at a quicker pace because you can because you have so many guys and don’t need to slow it down and work an offense to death to try and get a shot. Just score more points. Last year they could barely get shots off at times. If these guys are as good as we think they are that’s not an option. The team will take a lot more shots as a group this year as a result.
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Post by texs31 on Sept 20, 2018 21:06:23 GMT -5
My wife's sister is coming over and I have 0 interest in that so let's play this out (in order of when they'll potentially be free agents):
July 2019
Al Horford (Age 33) - He's got an opt out so IF he's worried about lack of touches, he just doesn't opt out and enters FA the following year at 34. Either way, he's gotta know that a) He's not getting Max; b) He's likely to get the most money from Boston; and c) Boston, for sure, isn't paying him for his scoring. Concern level - Low
Kyrie Irving (Age 27) - Unless he shows something that suggests his injury is still a thing, he's getting the max. 10 shots a game. 20 shots a game. Does it matter? We know it. The league knows it. HE knows it. Concern Level - Low
Terry Rozier (Age 25 as an RFA) - I think we all agree he's not signing an extension before opening night so he'll be an RFA. He'll be going from a starter (end of the year thru playoffs) to a bench player. His role will reduce. Now, depending on how the rotations play out, he'll likely be option #1 on the second unit (the question will be how much Stevens uses a pure Next 5 vs a rotation that keeps a starter or 2 in for much of the game). The only question I would have is, assuming no health issues, would NBA GMs ignore what he did last year if/when his shots reduce? Despite taking the time to do THIS I will NOT take the time to find a comparison (young bench player to a starter who had a great run back to a bench player prior to hitting FA). I'm willing to concede that concern here is, at least, Moderate but would have a hard time defending if someone wants to argue it should be High. Of course, if Kyrie leaves, Boston will pay him (likely waiting for an offer to match but still, he'll get paid).
July 2020
Gordon Hayward (Age 30) - Similar situation to Horford (older can opt out or wait until following year at Age 31). Also similar to Horford, his value to Boston likely won't be measured solely in scoring (though unlike Horford, he's more of an alpha scorer). Also unlike Horford, assuming he's shown full recovery, he'll be younger and can reasonably hope for another max contract. I'm going to go, at least, Moderate on this one. But I really don't know (just wouldn't be fair for me to say Low or High).
Jaylen Brown (Age 23) - I'd be surprised if he gets here. Unless we see MAJOR regression (more than just stats) OR he has little desire to play in Boston longer than he has to, his rookie contract will get extended at the max. If we do get here, do you see anyone not offering him a max contract as an RFA? GM's will pay for a 23 year old who's shown the ability to score 30 pts in multiple playoff games (while still learning how to make the most of his abilities). If he doesn't get his money, there has been a significant shift in GM mentality. Concern - Low
July 2021
Jayson Tatum (Age 23) - See Jaylen Brown (and moreso) - Concern Level - VERY Low
So, I don't know. Seems like there's little need to worry about pending FA relative to shot oppurtunities, IMO. Rozier and Hayward are the only ones who would even begin to think their next contract will be impacted by how many shots they get. Rozier's age works in his favor. Hayward = ?
IF there is concern, I would say it's just about alpha mentality (especially during crunch time) and the potential that the best shot may not be taken bc each believes THEY are the best chance to make the shot(win the game). Sure. But I don't think it will be based on contract concerns.
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